Revised Armors

[Demivrgvs]

I told Arda I would have discussed this in public and then I forgot it actually is relatively urgent. Let's get to the point. The upcoming release will introduce a quite huge global change to armors (they would have been two, but Arda made attack speed penalty available in the beta), and we want to see if we can reach a consensus regarding all the various tweaks and their values.

 

Physical Damage Resistance

First of all I want to say one thing, introducing this aspect without a proper counterbalance would seriously break the game imo, making heavy armors extremely overpowered. That is why I'm convinced it should not be possible to install this component without also installing DEX penalties (and attack speed penalties too imo, but they are less crucial).

 

Keep in mind it doesn't necessarily means that for x% DEX penalty we give y% resistance because we actually have quite a lot of factors now to consider when it comes to balance all armor types (attack speed factor, movement rate, stealth penalties, arcane failure, etc.). I propose three options, but feel free to suggest another one or comment on a particular armor type.

 

Option A

* Light armors (leather, studded, hide): 5% physical resistance

* Medium armors (chain, splint): 10% physical resistance

* Heavy armors (plate, full plate): 15% physical resistance

 

Option B

* Light armors (leather, studded, hide): 10% physical resistance

* Medium armors (chain, splint): 15% physical resistance

* Heavy armors (plate, full plate): 20% physical resistance

 

Option C

* Light armors (leather, studded): 5% physical resistance

* Medium armors (hide, chain): 10% physical resistance

* Heavy armors (splint, plate): 15% physical resistance

* Very Heavy armor (full plate): 20% physical resistance

 

Option A is the most simple solution.

Option B would make the resistance aspect more noticeable as a whole (is it necessary?), while lowering the gap between light and medium armors (it's still 5%, but it's not twice as much), but it would hugely boost all armors (even assuming we could give leather armor a -1 weapon speed factor penalty) making it harder to predict if balance between armored and unarmored characters is ok (enemies are affected by these changes too), and if I can keep the maximum % of resistance achievable under 100% (counting potions, spells, etc.).

Option C should be self explanatory. Conceptually I think Full Plate should offer slightly more resistance than a normal Plate Mail, but it already has +2 AC compared to the latter (plus another +1 AC against slashing, piercing and missile weapons) for only 1 point more of DEX penalty.

 

I would probably vote for A, but I would really hear more opinions on this matter.

 

Attack Speed penalty

This tweak is already available in the current V3 Beta, with the following values:

 

Armor Type - Weapon Speed Penalty

Leather Armor - none

Studded Leather - 1

Hide Armor - 2

Chain Mail - 2

Splint Mail - 3

Plate Mail - 4

Full Plate Armor -5

 

What do you think? Personally, while I like that there's a small difference between each armor type (the heavier it is the slower your attack movements), the end result in-game is too harsh for heavy armors imo. Because of the speed factor cap (afaik there's a cap at 10, am I wrong?), with these values a character with heavy armor will swing even a relatively fast long sword (from 5 to 9-10) as slow as a halberd or greatsword, but most importantly, there would be no difference between a bastard sword speed and a long sword. I would at least reduce Plate and full plate penalty by 1.

 

Keeping in mind Phisical Res and DEX penalties, what would you suggest?

 

Movement Speed penalty

These are fine as they are. If you ask me this is the only tweak of Revised Armors that should remain optional. It isn't just a cosmetic change imo, it actually adds a nice tactical role but it's not crucial in terms of balancing armors (only a little bit) and I'm aware many players consider it extremely annoying because of the long walks required in this game.

 

Overall I would make the install "easier" by reducing the current 7 options to only 2 (max 3 if we think attack speed is not necessary to counterbalance the physical res bonus - but I think it's needed):

- standard install (adds physical res in exchange for DEX & attack speed penalties)

- no movement speed penalty

I think Arda agreed on this, but I'm less sure Mike will (he is responsible of those cheesy options such as "spellcasting in armor without any penalty" which a dictator like me would never allow).

[Jarno Mikkola]

I would probably vote for A, but I would really hear more opinions on this matter.

Why there needs to be a vote, let the people do that with their feet and make the three options a sub-component thingy. Yes, I would vote for the last... but that me.

 

Overall I would make the install "easier" by reducing the current 7 options to only 2 (max 3 if we think attack speed is not necessary to counterbalance the physical res bonus

Making things "easier" by reducing install options is a VERY BAD idea.

You could say that it's easier to code those... yeah, but if you make a properly well made code, no matter which options you use, you still use the very same code library to install all things(and reduces the need to testing the options).

Tweaks, are just that, tweaks, the more options you have the better... always been so, always will be so. Remember, it's the players choice to install the component he wishes, and not your duty to keep them at the green road of uberDM.

[lynx]

I would cap the attack speed penalties at -3 or even -2. Even heavy armors allowed for efficient movement or they wouldn't have been useful for combat. The rest of the mali take care of the differentiation.

[kreso]

I'm for option d) :

Light armors - no DEX penalty, no physical resistance.

Medium - 10% -2/3 DEX

Plate - 15% -3 DEX

Full Plate - 20% -4DEX

 

The difference in plate vs full plate is just to balance out Ankheg Plate in BG1, which is only -1DEX and would offer same resistance as full plate, with the same base AC, which is bleh.

As for movement speed - optional, I find it extremely annoying otherwise (I want whoever is in plate to be in front, not Paladins lagging behind thieves).

 

Attack speed penalty:

Leather - none

Studded and Hide - 1

Chain and Splint - 2

Plate and Full Plate - 3

 

Note that full plated warriors have no chance on landing a melee hit on a mage unless he's casting something with a casting time of 10 (Time Stop?) in SCS. And I would implement these into "revised armor component", I wouldn't keep it optional. If you want damage resistance, you need to balance it out with drawbacks (keep in mind, in this game you can get to 21 dex without a single piece of equipment).

[Ardanis]

Option C for me.

Speed factor - after two years I still think -5 penalty on full plate is fine.

 

Because of the speed factor cap (afaik there's a cap at 10, am I wrong?), with these values a character with heavy armor will swing even a relatively fast long sword (from 5 to 9-10) as slow as a halberd or greatsword, but most importantly, there would be no difference between a bastard sword speed and a long sword.

Is that an issue? Imo it's reasonable in fact, that if you're encumbered with armor there'll be no big difference what to swing, so you might as well pick the slowest and heaviest weapon. This just perfectly enables the concept of light armored characters using light weapons.

 

if you make a properly well made code, no matter which options you use, you still use the very same code library to install all things(and reduces the need to testing the options).

Well, thank you for your unwavering faith in our abilities

We've been doing just that since the beginning, tp2 simply lists 0/1 flags under component's options.

 

What Demi means is to limit the horror of a dozen of subcomponents to 2-3 officially approved options. The last one may as well be "custom" and ask an advanced user to flag what they want installed. Same way how you install most any software nowadays.

 

Note that full plated warriors have no chance on landing a melee hit on a mage unless he's casting something with a casting time of 10 (Time Stop?) in SCS.

But that's just perfect, isn't it? Heavy fighters pwn lights, light - mages, mages - heavies.

[Demivrgvs]

Physical Resistance

I'm for option d) :

Light armors - no DEX penalty, no physical resistance.

Medium - 10% -2/3 DEX

Plate - 15% -3 DEX

Full Plate - 20% -4DEX

 

The difference in plate vs full plate is just to balance out Ankheg Plate in BG1, which is only -1DEX and would offer same resistance as full plate, with the same base AC, which is bleh.

Isn't -4 DEX too harsh? Mmm... Regardless, I wouldn't design a global component around a single item, especially when Ankheg Plate is going to be rebalanced on its own (reducing its enchantment lvl by 1, and raising acid resistance in exchange - exactly because it was outshining every other BG1 armor by a mile).

 

Btw, I would still give at least 5% res to light armors. Even if very small, I do think there should be a difference between wearing light armor and no armor at all like a kensai, monk or mage.

 

Attack Speed penalty

I would cap the attack speed penalties at -3 or even -2. Even heavy armors allowed for efficient movement or they wouldn't have been useful for combat. The rest of the mali take care of the differentiation.

You have a point, and I do said I consider the current penalties too harsh. Capping at -3 might be enough to give us room to at least differentiate a little bit.

 

Attack speed penalty:

Leather - none

Studded and Hide - 1

Chain and Splint - 2

Plate and Full Plate - 3

I like this. Full plate might need to be higher than normal plate though if we end up giving it 20% physical res.

 

Note that full plated warriors have no chance on landing a melee hit on a mage unless he's casting something with a casting time of 10 (Time Stop?) in SCS.

And as I told you, I really really like this. You like it too, don't you? As Arda says it adds a nice tactical aspect to the game (which would be highlighted even more by different movement speed).

 

@Arda, I do get your point, and I partially agree but at the same time I think that -4/-5 weapon speed pratically forces the player to pick the heavy weapons, while we can have your desired goal without completely invalidating the difference between weapons. With a slightly lower cap (e.g. even just -4 if -3 is too low) a long sword would get speed 8-9 (instead of the current 10 - aka the capped lowest speed), so slow that indeed you might as well pick a more damaging and slow weapon such as a flail or even a greatsword, because thanks to IR and SCS combined efforts with speed 8-9 you will find almost impossible to catch "kiting targets", but at the same time we would preserve a small speed difference between a long sword and a bastard sword. Am I wrong?

 

Movement Speed penalty

As for movement speed - optional, I find it extremely annoying otherwise (I want whoever is in plate to be in front, not Paladins lagging behind thieves).

As I said, I have no intention of making this tweak mandatory.

 

#of options

I would probably vote for A, but I would really hear more opinions on this matter.

Why there needs to be a vote, let the people do that with their feet and make the three options a sub-component thingy. Yes, I would vote for the last... but that me.

Because when I say "vote" I hope players will also share their opinion, not just vote. There isn't a real democracy here, in the end it's just me Arda and Mike to really decide what to do (e.g. 1000 votes asking for something without good arguments to support the request would hardly convince me), but players with good arguments have often convinced me to do one thing or the other.

 

The reason I prefer to opt for few options, instead of having tons of them, is that almost no part of IR is independent. Multiple options of multiple components might create severe balance issues (e.g. such as reaching 100% res in this case), and also make quite hard to receive coherent feedback (e.g. players not using DEX penalties do not experience the same game of those using it).

 

Overall I would make the install "easier" by reducing the current 7 options to only 2 (max 3 if we think attack speed is not necessary to counterbalance the physical res bonus

Making things "easier" by reducing install options is a VERY BAD idea.

I do get your point, I think Mike is more or less on your side, and you guys have some merit, but I'm not convinced that keeping tons of completely pointless options or most importantly broken ones is a good idea. I don't think anyone can convince me to have an option which gives players the opportunity to add 10-20% resistance to all armors without drawbacks, it's like asking a forum moderator to let forum members insult each others for multiple pages because they should have the option of doing so.

[Ardanis]

@Arda, I do get your point, and I partially agree but at the same time I think that -4/-5 weapon speed pratically forces the player to pick the heavy weapons, while we can have your desired goal without completely invalidating the difference between weapons. With a slightly lower cap (e.g. even just -4 if -3 is too low) a long sword would get speed 8-9 (instead of the current 10 - aka the capped lowest speed), so slow that indeed you might as well pick a more damaging and slow weapon such as a flail or even a greatsword, because thanks to IR and SCS combined efforts with speed 8-9 you will find almost impossible to catch "kiting targets", but at the same time we would preserve a small speed difference between a long sword and a bastard sword. Am I wrong?

I think you are, because that doesn't account for 1+ apr nor proficiency bonus to speed factor.

With those added in the SF = 10 turns into SF = 5 - prof_bonus / 2 ~= 3-4. And you get that 3rd prof point at level 3, probably still before getting a suit of full plate.

 

I recommend -5 penalty simply because it may - *may* - actually be noticed.

[kreso]

Physical Resistance

Isn't -4 DEX too harsh?

I see it as a countermeasure to 18/18/18 fighters, negating the dex bonuses completely in exchange for 1/5 reduction in damage.

Also, in BG1, I see any nerf to Full Plate armor class as a good decision - it's quite an uber-item there, making most of the enemies a walkover - they usually rely on either missiles, piercing or slashing weapons, and full plate excells against all that.

Regardless, I wouldn't design a global component around a single item, especially when Ankheg Plate is going to be rebalanced on its own (reducing its enchantment lvl by 1, and raising acid resistance in exchange - exactly because it was outshining every other BG1 armor by a mile).

Didn't know that. Sounds good. Anyways, I'm for making Full Plate better than Plate in all aspects - you still have exellent Plate (Red dragon, Shurupak's etc.) available, and in BG1 it's much easilly obtainable (in vanilla, a full-plate cost 9K gold!, while plate was 10x cheaper) - there are 2 non enchanted full plates and 1 +1 available.

 

Btw, I would still give at least 5% res to light armors. Even if very small, I do think there should be a difference between wearing light armor and no armor at all like a kensai, monk or mage.

I'm not sure just if this will be of any real use (usually it's -1 to damage taken, ending at -3 for some ToB bosses). It will help out thieves in BG1 since they'll take -1 on each hit, and it will nerf down backstabs on leather armored targets, which I don't really like (a piercing weapon should really go straight through leather).

 

Attack Speed penalty

 

Full plate might need to be higher than normal plate though if we end up giving it 20% physical res.

Go plate +3, full plate +4. Just see the perfect fit - each 5% damage resistance applies -1 to DEX and +1 attack speed penalty.

 

Note that full plated warriors have no chance on landing a melee hit on a mage unless he's casting something with a casting time of 10 (Time Stop?) in SCS.

And as I told you, I really really like this. You like it too, don't you? As Arda says it adds a nice tactical aspect to the game (which would be highlighted even more by different movement speed).

It does make big weapons (most importantly, Carsomyr and Vorpal Sword, and to a lesser extent Celestial Fury) much less overpowering against mages. I like it, and even when I played a game without IR I installed this component. Let's say "it makes sense".

 

we can have your desired goal without completely invalidating the difference between weapons.

This is a very good point.

 

I recommend -5 penalty simply because it may - *may* - actually be noticed.

I think it's already quite noticable. In theory, a mage would cast any spell with a casting time <3 before you can hit him. Since the mages in SCS don't stand in one place, it's hard to land a hit even with short swords, let alone in plate.

[Mike1072]

The reason I prefer to opt for few options, instead of having tons of them, is that almost no part of IR is independent. Multiple options of multiple components might create severe balance issues (e.g. such as reaching 100% res in this case), and also make quite hard to receive coherent feedback (e.g. players not using DEX penalties do not experience the same game of those using it).

 

Overall I would make the install "easier" by reducing the current 7 options to only 2 (max 3 if we think attack speed is not necessary to counterbalance the physical res bonus

Making things "easier" by reducing install options is a VERY BAD idea.

I do get your point, I think Mike is more or less on your side, and you guys have some merit, but I'm not convinced that keeping tons of completely pointless options or most importantly broken ones is a good idea.

I don't advocate for install options that are pointless or that greatly increase the difficulty of maintaining the mod.

 

I don't think anyone can convince me to have an option which gives players the opportunity to add 10-20% resistance to all armors without drawbacks

Not everyone plays the game at the same difficulty, with the same tactics, at the same skill level. If someone decides to install some component to get a free advantage without some built-in disadvantage, that's their choice. There's no way for you to know if they're then going to install some Tactics/SCS insane difficulty combo or use some "unnerfed" tables from Tweak Pack and CTRL-8 their entire party of custom generated Kensai/Mages.

 

That's my general rant about allowing components that might make the game "too easy" - in your opinion. That being said, the armor resistance and encumbrance changes are both trying to address the same problem: the AC system. So long as each aspect is used by about the same group of people, it simplifies things to bundle them. We've known for a while that many people (especially me) who want the DEX penalties do not want the movement speed penalties, so we do not bundle those together. So, the question becomes whether to bundle damage resistance and DEX penalties, damage resistance and attack speed penalties, DEX penalties and attack speed penalties, or all 3.

 

I anticipate most users of the DEX penalty component would not care if a small amount of damage resistance was bundled with the penalties. It's not intended to be a difficulty-enhancing component. Bundling these two might mean that the DEX penalty component would no longer be compatible with other mods that apply damage resistance, though. The same goes for users of attack speed penalties - they probably wouldn't mind getting some damage resistance.

 

I assume most people who use the attack speed penalties would be fine with DEX penalties; they are conceptually similar. I'm not sure that everyone who wants damage resistance would immediately want them, though. I find the DEX penalties quite reasonable, because we ensured a character would never lose AC by switching to a heavier armor type, but there would no longer be such a big difference between a character in heavy armor who has a high DEX and one who has a low DEX. So, I think a majority of people interested in the other armor changes could be convinced to try the DEX penalties. If that's the case, we can bundle the DEX penalties and armor resistance, and make the option to disable one of them require editing the installer/.ini file.

 

I'm less sure what the opinion of the attack speed penalties is or will be. The weapon changes component will increase the speed factor of many (magical) weapons in the game by restoring them to the values used by the non-magical versions. Heavy attack speed penalties would make this more noticeable, and worse, remove some of the uniqueness restored to the different weapon types. However, if the penalties were not so severe - maxing out at 2 or 3 as lynx suggested - this would have a lesser, but somewhat noticeable, effect. Keeping in mind that for most classes, speed factors are really not that important in the grand scheme of things, this might also be able to be bundled without too many complaints.

[yarpen]

Yo, long time no see. Mail notification got me here.

 

Physical Damage Resistance

Actually, I have some kind of proposition on how to make the differnce between Plate Mails and Full Plate Mails in the less drastic way. If I remember it correctly, you've removed the "crit protection" from Helmets, right?

 

Make their stats (AC, resistances) exactly the same, except Full Plate Mail gets protection from Crits and from Backstab.

Full Plate Mail still should give you more penalties as you're basically packed into huge, metal conserve.

 

Also, I think option B is the most reasonable. At least it actually affects the game in some way.

 

Penalties

I kinda hate the DEX penalty. I'd rather have Attack Speed Factor/Movement Speed and maybe Ranged Attacks penalties over that.

And as you noticed, those penalties are a bit too harsh. They make Attack Speed Factor completely irrelevant. This is why I'd propose:

 

Light Armor: no penalties

Medium Armor: -1 to ASF/RA, 90% MS

Plate Mail: -2 to ASF/RA, 85% MS

Full Plate Mail: -3 to ASF/RA, 80% MS

 

That should make it work really fine.

[Demivrgvs]

Yo, long time no see. Mail notification got me here.

Long time indeed! Nice to see you still around.

 

Physical Damage Resistance

Actually, I have some kind of proposition on how to make the differnce between Plate Mails and Full Plate Mails in the less drastic way. If I remember it correctly, you've removed the "crit protection" from Helmets, right?

 

Make their stats (AC, resistances) exactly the same, except Full Plate Mail gets protection from Crits and from Backstab.

It's a nice idea but maybe a little bit too radical. With head slot items not granting the party free immunity to criticals, getting immunity to them suddenly becomes an extremely huge advantage imo (that alone is worth more than the current +2 AC), and conceptually I'm not sure if any common full plate should automatically prevent a skilled assassin from stabbing the wearer in a weak spot with a sneak attack.

 

Penalties

I kinda hate the DEX penalty. I'd rather have Attack Speed Factor/Movement Speed and maybe Ranged Attacks penalties over that.

The problem is that a ranged thac0 penalty is not nearly enough to counter the huge advantages of wearing a heavy armor (not to mention most warriors are melee oriented and wouldn't even notice such penalty), even more so now with physical resistance added.

 

And as you noticed, those penalties are a bit too harsh. They make Attack Speed Factor completely irrelevant. This is why I'd propose:

 

Light Armor: no penalties

Medium Armor: -1 to ASF/RA, 90% MS

Plate Mail: -2 to ASF/RA, 85% MS

Full Plate Mail: -3 to ASF/RA, 80% MS

Those % values for the movement speed penalties doesn't work well because afaik the base movement speed is 9. The 90-80-70% values we are currently using pretty much means -1/-2/-3 movement speed (though the % means that the heavier the armor, the harder it is to make a character faster with Boot of Speed or similar effects).

 

#of options

Not everyone plays the game at the same difficulty, with the same tactics, at the same skill level. If someone decides to install some component to get a free advantage without some built-in disadvantage, that's their choice. There's no way for you to know if they're then going to install some Tactics/SCS insane difficulty combo or use some "unnerfed" tables from Tweak Pack and CTRL-8 their entire party of custom generated Kensai/Mages.

I'm not sure I follow you. I'm fine with Cam's motto "we are not the police", but why should I give players even more tools to power-play or make the game easier? Since when is that a scope of Revisions mods?

 

Following your logic it would be fine to have a component option allow Kensai/Mages to wear armor and cast spells with no penalties, because then players could make enemies have 2x hit points and 3x damage. Ok they can do whatever they want, but why should I give them an incentive?

 

@Arda, how do you feel about this?

[Mike1072]

#of options

I don't think anyone can convince me to have an option which gives players the opportunity to add 10-20% resistance to all armors without drawbacks

 

Not everyone plays the game at the same difficulty, with the same tactics, at the same skill level. If someone decides to install some component to get a free advantage without some built-in disadvantage, that's their choice. There's no way for you to know if they're then going to install some Tactics/SCS insane difficulty combo or use some "unnerfed" tables from Tweak Pack and CTRL-8 their entire party of custom generated Kensai/Mages.

 

I'm not sure I follow you. I'm fine with Cam's motto "we are not the police", but why should I give players even more tools to power-play or make the game easier? Since when is that a scope of Revisions mods?

 

We don't gain anything from going out of our way to try to prevent this behaviour.

 

By bundling the armor resistance changes with other changes, we would limit player choice and compatibility. Everyone who might want the armor resistance changes would be forced to take the other penalties, and everyone who might want the other penalties would be forced to take the armor resistance.

 

Yarpen has just stated he doesn't like the DEX penalties, so that's one person who wouldn't want to use the armor resistance component if it was bundled with DEX penalties.

 

The mod has features that appeal to a wide variety of players. Even when the mod design incorporates player feedback to reach agreeable solutions, there are bound to be players who love feature X but don't care for feature Y, and who only want to use feature Z some of the time, and it makes sense that we allow those players to choose what parts of the mod they want to use.

 

Following your logic it would be fine to have a component option allow Kensai/Mages to wear armor and cast spells with no penalties, because then players could make enemies have 2x hit points and 3x damage. Ok they can do whatever they want, but why should I give them an incentive?

 

Free spellcasting in armor is probably not something we would have designed as a standalone component. The reason I added it was because it was trivial to implement after writing the other spellcasting components and it didn't seem to be available elsewhere. I view the global components both as features that can be added to enhance the main component and as a selection of item-related tweaks. I don't think it betrays the concept of the mod if some of the tweaks are only desirable by a portion of players (especially if those tweaks are part of a multiple choice selection).

[yarpen]

It's a nice idea but maybe a little bit too radical. With head slot items not granting the party free immunity to criticals, getting immunity to them suddenly becomes an extremely huge advantage imo (that alone is worth more than the current +2 AC), and conceptually I'm not sure if any common full plate should automatically prevent a skilled assassin from stabbing the wearer in a weak spot with a sneak attack.

You know Dembro, the full plate mails were actually MADE to cover all the weak spots. The additional platings while hinder the movement even harder, they are dedicated to make striking someone with daggers/misericorde even harder as you basically try to open a can.

 

The problem is that a ranged thac0 penalty is not nearly enough to counter the huge advantages of wearing a heavy armor (not to mention most warriors are melee oriented and wouldn't even notice such penalty), even more so now with physical resistance added.

Penalties are not here just to be the penalties. They should also discourage players from specific gameplay. Basically, if you are kind of Fighter who puts Grandmastery into both Bows and Swords - you might consider to not jam yourself into that huge-ass platemail as it really makes using bows nearly impossible.

 

Also, I do have an idea about Dexterity penalties, but I am not sure if that's applicable. "Dexterity Penalty from armor can reduce character's Dexterity to minimum of 9." That would actually solve the biggest issue I have with Dexterity penalties. I just really hate to see my character with 4 Dexterity just because he tried to get into that sweet platemail.

That's the biggest issue I always had with AD&D's system. They mix up Armor Class (Evasion) with the resistance from damage. Personally, I'd consider a component that makes a huge overhaul on the whole thing.

 

- removes the Armor Class part from every Armor in the game (except of some magical ones)

- adds large Resistances to Armors (dependant on damage type)

- buffs up the Armor Class bonuses granted from Dexterity and other sources

I'd totally dig it.

 

Chainvest with 40% Slashing resistance, 25% Piercing resistance and 5% Bludgeon resistance.

Full Plate Mail with 60% Slashing Resistance, 60% Piercing resistance and 50% Bludgeon resistance.

 

That could really help at making the differences between certain armors more and more visible. For example, the big problem of making Plate Mails and Full Plate Mails different. Just make Full Plate Mail really resistant to Piercing damage compared to Plate Mail.

Also, that'd make Bludgeon weapons far more relevant as their biggest advantage is not giving a heck about most of in-game armors. When you swing into someone with a Hammer - you will make them feel pain no matter what. Damage you are dealing to peasant is not that different from damage dealt to a guy with Chainvest though.

 

Still, that probably fucks up most of in-game resistance issues.

[Salk]

For what is worth, I fully agree with Mike1072.

 

IR's philosophy should not be to make the game easier but, to me, it shouldn't make the game any harder either. That's something IR should rather leave to

 

1) The in-game difficulty slider

 

2) AI enhancing modifications

 

I enjoy the idea of an overhaul of the items so that we have more variations and a better use for those items that players usually ignore. The drawbacks should be optional because players might decide to take advantage of specific revisions to make battles less challenging playing with SCS or at a higher difficulty level.

[Demivrgvs]

Wall of text ahead.

 

Revised Armors

You know Dembro, the full plate mails were actually MADE to cover all the weak spots. The additional platings while hinder the movement even harder, they are dedicated to make striking someone with daggers/misericorde even harder as you basically try to open a can.

I know, but they still have vulnerable spots, else it would be impossible to move, and a trained assassin might still be able to find that weak spot with a stealthy backstab (which is different from the "cheaper" 3E sneak attack). That being said, wearing full plate still offers huge AC bonuses, making the backstab difficult to land in the first place, and 20% resistance is going to heavily reduce the damage sustained against a high backstab multiplier.

 

Btw, I do planned that one of the very few items to grant immunity to critical hits will be a full plate.

 

Penalties are not here just to be the penalties. They should also discourage players from specific gameplay. Basically, if you are kind of Fighter who puts Grandmastery into both Bows and Swords - you might consider to not jam yourself into that huge-ass platemail as it really makes using bows nearly impossible.

That's exactly what we are trying to achieve since the introduction of DEX penalties (which make heavy armor less appealing to ranged and/or evasive targets). Short story:

- with DEX penalties heavy armor still is (ALWAYS) the best available option in terms of protection, but high DEX characters might sacrifice a small amount of protection in exchange for higher mobility

- without DEX penalties light and medium armors are completely pointless compared to heavy armor, and the only reason to ever pick one is a forced class restriction

 

Also, I do have an idea about Dexterity penalties, but I am not sure if that's applicable. "Dexterity Penalty from armor can reduce character's Dexterity to minimum of 9." That would actually solve the biggest issue I have with Dexterity penalties. I just really hate to see my character with 4 Dexterity just because he tried to get into that sweet platemail.

Your are grossly exaggerating this. I've used % values instead of fixed -x penalties exactly to counter what you says. A character with DEX 9 would get to DEX 7 when wearing full plate (no difference at all in terms of gameplay - and with a plate mail he would have suffered only 1 point of penalty!). A character with DEX 6 gets to 5, while to get DEX 4 in full plate your character need to have DEX 5 as base value, which means you are trying to give a full plate to an old man who cannot even raise himself from bed.

 

I would indeed prefer to have a "DEX cap" as per PnP, but what we did is the best implementation we could achieve with the tools we have.

 

That's the biggest issue I always had with AD&D's system. They mix up Armor Class (Evasion) with the resistance from damage. Personally, I'd consider a component that makes a huge overhaul on the whole thing.

 

- removes the Armor Class part from every Armor in the game (except of some magical ones)

- adds large Resistances to Armors (dependant on damage type)

- buffs up the Armor Class bonuses granted from Dexterity and other sources

I'd totally dig it.

While I agree that armors granting only AC (as per standard D&D rules) doesn't represent their actual role very well, I actually think mixing AC and damage resistance is a good thing. The AC part is there to simulate the fact that even if you do not have the DEX to dodge an attack, that attack might hit your armor in a spot where it can fully absorb the strike. If you completely remove AC from armors, even with huge resistance values you would end up with a heavy armored template who gets hit every single time, and each time in a weak spot because every attempted attack would deal damage to such a character.

 

Also, that'd make Bludgeon weapons far more relevant as their biggest advantage is not giving a heck about most of in-game armors. When you swing into someone with a Hammer - you will make them feel pain no matter what. Damage you are dealing to peasant is not that different from damage dealt to a guy with Chainvest though.

I kinda agree with this, and that's why I do considered to replace hidden AC bonuses with different resistance values...but it's really complicated.

 

Demi vs. power playing and convenient tweaks

Short story: certain options (e.g. no penalties with heavy armors, spellcast with no drawbacks, etc.) go completely against my intentions and destroy the heavy amount of study, work and debates we (including players who helped with feedback) did to design Revisions mods. If certain players want to break such fine tuning and don't care about balance fine with me, but I'd prefer them to have to edit an ini file or something like that rather than offering them the opportunity on a silver plate.

 

I'm fine when it comes to allow multiple options (e.g. no speed penalty), but cheesy power playing options should not belong to Revisions mods imo.

 

Long Story: ...

By bundling the armor resistance changes with other changes, we would limit player choice and compatibility. Everyone who might want the armor resistance changes would be forced to take the other penalties, and everyone who might want the other penalties would be forced to take the armor resistance.

Let's start from the beginning:

- vanilla game was so aware that heavy armors (full plate in particular) were OP that it did not granted players highly enchanted specimens, while getting +5 or even +6 specimens of light and medium armors was stupidly easy (because that was the only way to make them even remotely appealing)

- IR's main component assumes some sort of penalties are added to heavy armors to even the odds and grants players highly enchanted heavy armors

--> if no penalty is installed IR is actually responsible of breaking the game balance more than vanilla did

 

Thanks to players feedback (I cannot thank enough those who give heavy and proper feedback) we know that even assuming DEX penalties IR allows players to create characters who are almost impossible to hit. Allowing players to stack extremely good DEX and physical resistance on top of that, without any penalty, is simply beyond stupid imo.

 

Players who does not use DEX penalties fall into one or more of the following categories:

a) they actually never tried them because they are scared, and pick the cheapest option we give them

b) they don't truly understand how the system work

c) they know what they do, but they like their 18 DEX character to walk around in full plate faster than a sprinting Usain Bolt (blame BG2 increased walking speed too), while dodging attacks like Batman and absorbing damage as a golem

 

It's our responsibility to "care" about players falling in a) or b), but I really don't see why I should care about c). When it comes to a) and b) we should try to better inform them (I know I managed to convince tons of players with decent arguments about many tweaks who scared them such as bow's reduced apr or the currently discussed DEX penalties - and in the end they thanked me because they started to like those "penalties" after realizing how the system works as a whole), but allowing them to easily pick more "alluring" options reduces the chances of them actually trying the mod out as it was intended. With all due respect, I cannot expect all players to be as good as Kreso or DavidW at understanding how the game works, and if I give them the "no penalty" option I do expect many of them to pick it over the balanced solution simply because they think the latter one is a "nerf" rather than what it truly is.

 

Yarpen has just stated he doesn't like the DEX penalties, so that's one person who wouldn't want to use the armor resistance component if it was bundled with DEX penalties.

I'm not sure about it, I think Yarpen just said he does not like DEX penalties, but I'm pretty sure he would still install the physical resistance component if it was bundled with DEX penalties. I actually dare to say I might be able to persuade him to dislike those penalties less than he currently does. @Yarpen, am I wrong?

 

IR's philosophy should not be to make the game easier but, to me, it shouldn't make the game any harder either.

Revisions's "philosophy" is indeed more about variety and gameplay depth than handling game difficulty, but balance is a crucial aspect too imo, and between making the game slightly easier or slightly harder I would surely pick the latter.

 

That being said, if you agree with Mike you are actually agreeing on allowing IR to potentially make the game extremely easier when certain options are installed. As I explained above, even without physical resistance DEX penalties does not make the game harder, while no penalty options will make the party even more OP.