Unearthed Arcana presents Scales of Balance: a post-hac tweak pack

[subtledoctor]

8 hours ago, zuulforrest said:

Getting a failed install on the Combat Skills component in IWDEE. 

Thanks for posting that, fixed in v6.5a12.

[Guest Person]

I find the SBO Charisma bonus XP modifier really inelegant:
- You only need the XP bonus for as long as it jumps you to the next level, resulting in lots of boring, abusive item juggling. With incremental-style stat bonus items I was able to get most of my party to 23+ for the majority of SoA (giving everyone HLAs at the start of chapter 5, and about 600k extra XP by Suldanessellar). Without other mods you can do Human Influence + Nymph Cloak + Blade of Roses for +5, plus Sensate Amulet, Friends etc, all available at the start of SoA. Even if you can't get CHA super high, the point is there's no downside to doing it besides tedium, and it will get you an extra level before key moments.
- The other bonuses on CHA are already good without it. Passive +1 luck/+2 vs. breath is very desirable. An arcane with Friends has twice those bonuses. Stack with Chant for another +1 luck, then EE Bard song or that dumb luckstone from Rogue Rebalancing, and you've basically nullified spell damage.
- There's no way to represent the XP bonus in NPCs. It's purely an advantage to the player.

[subtledoctor]

I mean, a lot of what you are griping about is stuff that other people might like. A lot of players like exploity stuff. 

I don’t know how you are bumping a 6-person party 5 points above the max CharGen CHA score, when most NPC start with sub-18 CHA, and you’ve identified a total of 5 points of bonuses in the game. (Unless you are adding a bunch of mod items, which I can’t control - and further, see paragraph 1.)

Moreover, you are describing an illusory benefit. If you artificially boost your CHA to level up faster and then remove the boosts (giving them to another party member?) your XP will immediately drop below the level-up threshold. You won’t lose a level, but you will need more XP to reach the next level-up. Of course you can artificially boost your CHA again, but the overall result of these machinations will be, roughly, nothing. But someone with naturally high CHA will see an overall benefit over the course of a game. It’s supposed to model something like fate - the universe making things easier for some people. Without much meddling, I think this does that. And if people want to use magic to meddle with that… maybe they should be able to?

I can’t make it just about luck, because you get luck bonuses at scores of 18 and 22… there needs to be bonuses for 15, 17, 20, etc. 

I’m always open to constructive discussion! If anyone has ideas for how to make charisma more consequential, I’m happy to consider anything. 

[Endarire]

Thanks, doc, for explaining your reasoning for more EXP for a higher CHA!

I agree that it's handy to be able to boost CHA to just get another level sooner without grinding, but it may require inventory Tetris or/and temporary buffing.

By default, a Ring of Human Influence sets the wearer's CHA to 18.  Assumingly, CHA bonuses improve that further.

Edited April 22, 2023 by Endarire

[Guest Person]

It's not an illusionary benefit. It doesn't matter if it doesn't add up to an ultimate advantage, because it costs nothing and means I have a level now, like Greater Deathblow at the start of the Underdark for example, or an extra HLA before Bodhi. I recognise mine is an extreme case (and yes, there are a couple of mod items involved to get these results, though I'm not exploiting all the vanilla sources either), but I'm not really complaining about the power of it warping the game. It's the necessary ugliness of its implementation which I don't feel fits in with the quality of the rest of the mod.

I don't think CHA needs anything for compensation, personally. Charisma without the bonus XP is better than Wisdom if you have a lot of it, otherwise it's worse (overlooking save vs. wand as it's basically useless). The existing save bonuses already update on every point except 23 which is where you get luck +2. And CHA's a casting stat with the bonus spells component. In any case, I'm turning the XP off in my game before I start ToB.

[jmerry]

9 hours ago, subtledoctor said:

Moreover, you are describing an illusory benefit. If you artificially boost your CHA to level up faster and then remove the boosts (giving them to another party member?) your XP will immediately drop below the level-up threshold. You won’t lose a level, but you will need more XP to reach the next level-up.

Unless you just apply the bonuses again when it's time for the next level. Remember, most of the stuff we're talking about is item equip effects that can be freely applied at any time, with no disadvantage unless you're in combat.

It's a bit like the issues with intelligence-based spell learning restrictions in the standard rules; you only need that intelligence at the moment you learn the spell, so a mage can just get everything with no risk as long as they have a modest supply of the relevant potions. Here, a character only needs that high-charisma bonus XP at the moment of leveling, and can let it slide the rest of the time.

These issues would go away if that was a bonus to new experience earned instead of total character XP ... but I don't think that's even possible.

Edited April 23, 2023 by jmerry

[Endarire]

Maybe EEex can directly connect stats to EXP % gain.

What about tying EXP % only to base CHA instead of current CHA?

Edited April 23, 2023 by Endarire

[subtledoctor]

On 4/22/2023 at 8:07 PM, jmerry said:

These issues would go away if that was a bonus to new experience earned instead of total character XP ... but I don't think that's even possible.

Yes, applying a multiple to your overall XP value is the only way to alter XP at all. 

I am sympathetic, and I am myself not totally satisfied with the ability score bonuses as they currently stand… but I also have not come up with anything better. And the XP thing in particular, I understand it can be manipulated but in my current game where I ignore it and just passively get the effect of it, it is playing quite well. I largely equalized my class XP tables so Charisma is a big factor in differentiating the speed of advancement. 

On 4/23/2023 at 12:23 AM, Endarire said:

Maybe EEex can directly connect stats to EXP % gain.

Probably, but I don’t make mods that are platform-dependent. 

[Endarire]

What say you to keying bonus EXP to base CHA only?

Thankee!

[subtledoctor]

It goes against the entire point of this component, which is to code dynamic stat bonuses. What good would the CHA stat tome be, or the bonus from Lum’s Machine? 

Better to nerf or change the spells and items that grant temporary bonuses. 

Edited April 26, 2023 by subtledoctor

[jmerry]

The tome and Lum's machine do update base charisma; they use timing mode 1, which directly modifies that entry in the CRE. The issue here is feasibility; I'm not sure whether you can key off base stats for this. Sure, some things like dual-classing and shorty bonuses do that, but they're hooked into the code in ways that this mod can't replicate.

[Endarire]

The intent of base CHA was to also use mods from tomes, race, and other non-dispellable, non-spell, non-item effects.

[subtledoctor]

I mean, there’s no way to distinguish. The stat value is the stat value. The only alternative is to apply a permanent bonus at CharGen and ignore any in-game changes thereafter. 

I’m still not convinced this is a problem that needs solving. Don’t load up on temporary bonuses before leveling up —> no problem. Or just turn off the CHA changes in the settings before installing. 

Or convince me of a different way to make Charisma cool! My ears are open

[GawainBS]

I don't see a problem. If you want to be ''overpowered'', go nuts. If you don't, don't abuse it. It's your game and the mod just opens options, it nevers forces anything.

[Person]

Saving Throw Overhaul unilaterally adds saves to all of a wand's effects, irrespective of if saving is appropriate (no match_savingthrow). This also breaks Monster Summoning/Absorption/Magic Flute etc.