Paladin and pre-marital sex

[jastey]

What do people think? Is the Catholic Church running the FR, too? Is a paladin loosing his purity by having pre-marital sex?

 

What I am talking about is pre-marital intimacies with the woman he intends to marry, i.e. his fiance. I am not talking about having a fling, like the fallen paladin in BGII had! (Although I put different reply options for that one.)

 

I'm asking for Ajantis, of course, paladin of Helm. What is your opinion? Canon / AD&D info anyone?

 

Feel free to post your comments.

[Kish]

To the best of my knowledge, the Forgotten Realms doesn't do the "sex is bad" thing some real-world religions do--at all. So I can't see how it would interact in any way with paladinhood. Yes, there are situations where having sex with someone could make a paladin fall, but never for the sex itself. Having sex with an evil person would count as associating with an evil person, and lying to convince someone to have sex with you would get the same penalty that lying to someone to gain something else equally significant would.

[Hendryk]

Presumably the gods of FR have some opinion on the matter and the opinions needn't agree, even among those gods that sponsor paladins. So some paladins might be permitted quite liberal views on knightly courtesy while others are required to maintain a strict celibacy. Unfortunately, I don't know enough about the FR pantheon to suggest which might be which.

[Kish]

Presumably the gods of FR have some opinion on the matter

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Oh, only the ones whose portfolios are directly concerned. Faerun gods are extremely monomaniacal, and of those deities who qualify for having paladins*, the only one I can think of who would have a reason to take a stance on sex is Sune Firehair.

 

*Myrkul, if he was alive, would probably be opposed to sex in general unless you can transmit a nasty disease by it, but Myrkul didn't have paladins.

[neriana]

There isn't any such thing as "purity" anyway in association with sex. Just ask a paladin of Sune.

 

The idea that sex is somehow "impure" and only excusable through marriage and to have children is sick. (There may be other good reasons for people to choose to only have sex in a committed relationship, but the supposed inherent badness of sex isn't one of them.) Evil gods may want to enforce that to further keep control over their followers, but obviously that doesn't say anything about paladins.

 

I can see chastity (not celibacy) being important to say, Torm. But that is an integrity and loyalty issue, and says nothing about sex itself. Also, paladins of Torm are supposed to have families and treat them well. So obviously he smiles on sex in that context.

 

Lathander and Chauntea both encourage fertility and joy. Other than that, I'm not sure any deities who accept paladins would have anything to say about sex at all. There's "don't lie" and "treat people well", but that's in every context. As far as I'm concerned, an unattached paladin could sleep her way around Faerun, if she was honest to her partners. They can't even catch diseases, so STDs are a non-issue as well.

[Rabain]

They can't even catch diseases, so STDs are a non-issue as well.

 

I think if a paladin even thought this he would already have gone to far! I have to admit though that it is something I hadn't thought of before .

 

On the other hand knowing some of the FR pantheon it would go something like this:

 

Paladin: Lord Helm I am just going to sleep my way across the continent not worrying about the vicious std's that I am so thankfully immune to!

 

Helm: (As thy punishment for such abuse I burden thee with a yearlong case of genital warts...and bad breath. Talk to me in a year when thee has learned humility.)

 

Paladin: bugger!

 

 

I guess FR has its own equalisers.

[J Beau]

I think there are some backwards ways of looking at sex and marriage here. Sex is not bad, it's not good, it's not even great; it is something sacred. Take it from some one who is married, sex is not just a contact sport. Every time a husband and wife are intimate, they re-new their wedding vows. How can you re-new something that has not yet taken place? Remember, when a husband and wife have sex for the first time after marriage, they consumate the wedding vows through the act of sex. I think a paladin, especialy of Helm, would be very mindful of that. Even before marriage, there would be a respect for the vows that will one day be taken.

[neriana]

I think there are some backwards ways of looking at sex and marriage here. Sex is not bad, it's not good, it's not even great; it is something sacred. Take it from some one who is married, sex is not just a contact sport. Every time a husband and wife are intimate, they re-new their wedding vows. How can you re-new something that has not yet taken place? Remember, when a husband and wife have sex for the first time after marriage, they consumate the wedding vows through the act of sex. I think a paladin, especialy of Helm, would be very mindful of that. Even before marriage, there would be a respect for the vows that will one day be taken.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Sex is only sacred if you think it's sacred. Take it from someone who isn't married, sometimes it's just a fun contact sport. Please do not try to put your religious views on other peoples' sex lives. It's your business to regard sex as sacred for you, and it's none of your business how other people regard sex for them.

 

Oh, and sometimes it's plenty "sacred", or at least meaningful, when the people involved aren't married or planning to marry. So again -- please do not be placing others in your religion, thank you. Helm is not Jehovah or Allah.

[Domi]

Neriana, I believe the poster meant to discuss a possible value of sex for a paladin of Helm on Faerun, not for the other posters. Ajantis (with all due respect to Jastey's vivid and colorful interpretation) is not a 'person'. JB had expressed his or her opinion on the murky subject of premarital sex in Faerun, just like you did a few posts earlier, so there is no need to hound him or her with it.

[neriana]

Neriana, I believe the poster meant to discuss a possible value of sex for a paladin of Helm on Faerun, not for the other posters. Ajantis (with all due respect to Jastey's vivid and colorful interpretation) is not a 'person'. JB had expressed his or her opinion on the murky subject of premarital sex in Faerun, just like you did a few posts earlier, so there is no need to hound him or her with it.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

S/he did not use any qualifiers, but said "sex is sacred", etc., as if that were an objective fact. I also assume s/he is married here on earth, and not on Faerun. Nor is disagreeing with someone and asking them to please not apply their own very personal ideas about what sex is for them to everyone else "hounding" them.

[Domi]

I did not get the impression that it was expanding any sort of religious propaganda to everyone (despite POV most probably being borrowed from religion) - it started with explicit "I think", then expressed a POV and finally narrowed it down to " paladin, especialy of Helm..." So, I believe you are overreacting when describing the post as prescriptive to real people. I for one found it an insightful post, and valuable for this thread, because being an atheist myself I've never bothered to look up the basis on which premarital sex is not considered acceptable by religions and I am interested to see another position.

[Kish]

Well, in the Realms, sex is sacred--in that there is a deity dedicated to sex. However, that deity (Sharess) doesn't frown in premarital sex in the least. It's not in Helm's portfolio so he would barely register that sex exists (though, being the embodiment of order, he probably frowns on followers who have more lovers than they can keep track of. ).

[Rabain]

I guess when attempting to answer these questions it is best to put ourselves in the mind of the Paladin and his god.

 

Why would the paladin want to have pre-marital sex? He is in love or he is just a horny toad?

 

What is his chosen deities position on pre-marital sex? He can do it or he can't depending on the reason he is thinking of doing it!

 

Is the paladin taking advantage of someone or are they both consenting adults who will just go their separate ways afterwards (it happens) or is there a deeper attachment?

 

I agree with the view that sex need not be sacred, it can be just two people enjoying each other for a night. So long as no one gets hurt where's the harm?

 

But once an emotional attachment is made sex becomes more than physical and you will need a gods help if you are caught doing it with someone you shouldn't be doing it with...mmm or something!

 

I think what I am saying is that if the paladins god thinks its okay then its okay (assuming that the god knows the intimate reasons behind the paladins actions).

 

~Always a caveat, with everything~

[Domi]

I think reposting Helm's Dogma might greatly influence the argument; I am guessing in Helm's case it's not so much the issue of sanctity of sex, as that of loyalty, duty and promise. Plus, Ajantis being a nobleman and the forth son of Ilvastaars, his obedience to his parents needs to be considered. Was he already promissed? Is there an expectation that he would marry into another House of Waterdeep etc. It all could make interesting if slightly irritating context for the romantic scene

[jastey]

Thanks for the discussion, you all! All opinions are welcome!

 

Helm's dogmas are (taken from "Faith and Pantheons"):

Never betray your trust. Be vigilant. Stand, wait, and watch carefully. Be fair and diligent in the conduct of your orders. Protect the weak, poor, injured, and young, and do not sacrifice them for others or yourself. Anticipate attacks and be ready. Know your foes. Care for your weapons so they may perform their duties when called upon. Careful planning always defeats rushed actions in the end. Always obey orders, providing those orders follow the dedicates of Helm. Demonstrate excellence and purity of loyality in your role as a guardian and protector.

 

Ever being vigilant could be a paladin of Helm never having sex - you can't "be vigilant for attacks" in such a situation, eh? But it would mean he'd try to never sleep, too, so I guess this conclusion can't be drawn.

 

I see no contradiction of Helm's dogmas if a paladin of Helm has pre-marital intimacies with his One love, but that could be only my opinion.

 

Does anyone have some other handbook information? "Complete Paladins Handbook", or 3rd edition AD&D stuff?