SR Revised V1.3.900 (2022 August 8th)

[DavidW]

1 hour ago, Guest Alkaid said:

Ah, if that's the case then it should be SCS that's making its current HP value be set to 70 then. Though again as I noted, for whatever reason the arcane Summon Fiend spell isn't even using that creature ID, it's using something else created by SCS. By the looks of it, SCS seems to have created a new file (DWDVGLAB.CRE) and then pointed the arcane Summon Fiend at it.

There were some specific conversations between me and Demivrgvs, ages ago, about how to make SCS's and SR's death knights and fiend summons play nicely with each other; DWDVGLAB is one of the consequences of that, I think. It wouldn't surprise me if subsequent changes in how either SR or SCS is implemented has messed it up (to say nothing of SR-vs-SRR issues).

[Bartimaeus]

8 minutes ago, DavidW said:

antimagic spells ignore level-based immunities

Yeah, SR sets all antimagic spells (besides Breach) to have a power level of 0, so they do.

5 minutes ago, DavidW said:

DWDVGLAB

Unfortunately does not exist in any form in either SR or SRR - I just did a complete search of all files in the SR archive for it via Notepad++, and it turns up nothing. How would the best way to resolve this be, would you say?

Edited October 15, 2021 by Bartimaeus

[Nathan82]

@Bartimaeus hello, i have a really specific question about the changes to charm.

Will the charm spell the ring of human influence has as an ability still break/counter the enchantment or whatever it is affecting Glaicus in De'Arnisse keep?

Thanks

[Bartimaeus]

@DavidW Here is the current situation of SR (not SRR - pretend this isn't the SRR thread for a moment):

1. SPPR703, Gate in the vanilla game, is replaced with Summon Death Knight. This simply uses a Use Eff (177) with SPCACO.eff, and SR overrides the original version of SPCACO.eff to summon DVDEATHK.cre. DVKNIGHTK.cre is, of course, uniquely SR-added.
2. SPWI707 is the exact same story as above, using the same .eff and therefore summons the same creature.
3. SPWI807, Summon Fiend, uses a 177 with SPFIEND.eff. SR overrides the original version of SPFIEND.eff to summon DEMGLASU.cre. SR overrides the original version of DEMGLASU.cre with its own.
4. SPWI905, Gate, uses a 177 with SPGATE.eff. SR overrides the original version of SPGATE.eff to summon DEMPITSU.cre. SR overrides the original version of DEMPITSU.cre with its own.

I have not changed any of this for SRR (I don't use SR's fiends, I prefer atweaks', so I have little reason to modify them beyond some slight tweaking/maintenance), so it stands to reason that whatever's currently happening here should also be happening in SR as well, though I have admittedly not tested that.

12 minutes ago, Nathan82 said:

@Bartimaeus hello, i have a really specific question about the changes to charm.

Will the charm spell the ring of human influence has as an ability still break/counter the enchantment or whatever it is affecting Glaicus in De'Arnisse keep?

Thanks

If it did before, I don't see any reason it shouldn't now, .

Edited October 15, 2021 by Bartimaeus

[DavidW]

OK, so 'DWDVGLAB.cre' and 'DWDVPITF.cre' are clones of, respectively, DEMGLASU.cre and DEMPITSU.cre. I make them so that I can isolate SR's versions of the spell from SCS's versions (which inter alia might summon demons or devils depending on caster alignment). SCS mages carry on using the SCS versions but players keep the SR versions.

I don't otherwise modify those files - they should be identical to the SR versions - although they might be being swept up in some of SCS's general hp/thac0/save algorithms. 

What's actually wrong with them?

[Guest Alkaid]

@Bartimaeus

I think SRR and SCS play reasonably nicely, probably just Faiths and Powers having a funky interaction.

I've just pointed the EFF file to the one SCS makes and it seems to function correctly. (Glabrezu has full health, can turn against you, etc.)

Having that on a level 7 priest slot might be a bit too strong so I may just switch it with the Death Knight one, but whatever. xD 

[Guest Alkaid]

@DavidW

DWDVGLAB itself seems to be fine. The weirdness here was SCS setting the original DEMGLASU file to 70/160 current/max HP for whatever reason. Then, probably because of Faiths and Powers adding a new spell, I was getting the original DEMGLASU.CRE through a priest summon that I guess had evaded the conversion to the new creature/effect.

[subtledoctor]

  

6 hours ago, FixTesteR said:

Isn't it true that GoI can be brought down by a successful dispel magic? But you think of changing this behavior so that it bypasses in and doesn't dispell it?

No - in the unmodded game Dispel/Remove Magic can bypass GOI and dispel any active effects underneath it, but will not dispel the GOI.

I'm not sure what you mean by "but you think of changing it" - SR retains this behavior IIRC, and both SRR and my own spell system tweaks offer several options to keep this same behavior, or alter it to allow Dispel/Remove to take down the GOI, or to allow GOI to fully block Dispel/Remove. You have lots of options! What I was discussing a few posts back was a new idea: to really make Remove Magic and Breach fully aligned in their behavior: let them bypass GOI, but be blocked by Deflection. This would have the effect (per DavidW's suggestion as well as my own inclination) of giving enemy wizards a bit more insulation against having their combat protections stripped away.

2 hours ago, Guest Alkaid said:

I think SRR and SCS play reasonably nicely, probably just Faiths and Powers having a funky interaction.

I'm not sure I really understand from your posts what the "funky" behavior is that you are concerned about.  FnP does not touch any .CRE files - even when radically overhauling druid shapeshifts, it supplies its own files.  It certainly doesn't reduce the current hp of any .CRE files.  FWIW, in my current game with SR + FnP + SCS (in that order!), both DEMGLASU and DWDBGLAB have 100 current/100 max hit points.

As far as Summon Death Knight: glancing at the default FnP sphere lists, it appears that the spell is not part of the sphere system. Why? Here's the longish answer.

First: I think "Summon Death Knight" is a fairly poor concept for a spell. Ever read about Lord Soth? Death Knights are supposed to be campaign-defining villains, not summonable meat shields. It's akin to having a spell (a 7th-level spell!) that summons a lich. Just, no. Second: as I opined to Demi a number of years ago, I think it's somewhat bad form for SR to overwrite spells that summon fiends with spells that summon other stuff. Fiend summoning is a classic high-level wizard trope, the spells are distinct and rare and in some ways the pinnacle of the Conjurer's art. I don't like the idea of them being removed from the game, when the new SR spell could be added and the old spells retained.  Third: even if you like SR's spell substitution, it is a pretty dramatic switch in tone and substance.  In FnP I designed spell spheres each of which follows a theme; "Protection," "War," "Exploration," etc.  I could put SPPR703 into a sphere in which it it thematically appropriate to summon a Pit Fiend... but if someone installs a mod that changes that summon to an undead being, it becomes thematically inappropriate for my sphere design.  And I cannot control whether people install mods like that.

So, wanting a 7th-level spell in the Perdition "Astral" sphere to be an extraplanar summon, and not an undead summon, and knowing that Gate might be subject to changes outside my control, I included the 8th-level arcane spell "Summon Fiend" in the sphere system. "Summon Death Knight" does not appear at all as a divine spell in the default FnP sphere system.

Of course, the sphere system is totally modular, so you can easily add "SPPR703   7   =   Death" to the list in that file before you install FnP, and voila - you will have Summon Death Knight in your game.  (If you want to change Summon Fiend to Summon Death Knight in a game-in-progress, then you can modify "D5P2807.spl" in NI and change it to a different summoning .EFF.  Of course, you will still need major access to the Astral sphere in order to cast it.)

Edited October 15, 2021 by subtledoctor

[DavidW]

2 hours ago, Guest Alkaid said:

@DavidW

DWDVGLAB itself seems to be fine. The weirdness here was SCS setting the original DEMGLASU file to 70/160 current/max HP for whatever reason. Then, probably because of Faiths and Powers adding a new spell, I was getting the original DEMGLASU.CRE through a priest summon that I guess had evaded the conversion to the new creature/effect.

Yes, I'm not quite sure why SCS is doing that. (It definitely is, I just can't recall the rationale.)

There's only so much I can do to catch third-party-added fiend-summoning spells, of course.

[Bartimaeus]

2 hours ago, Guest Alkaid said:

DWDVGLAB itself seems to be fine. The weirdness here was SCS setting the original DEMGLASU file to 70/160 current/max HP for whatever reason. Then, probably because of Faiths and Powers adding a new spell, I was getting the original DEMGLASU.CRE through a priest summon that I guess had evaded the conversion to the new creature/effect.

What component of SCS specifically did this? I installed the general better AI, smarter mages, and improved fiends after SRR and didn't notice anything amiss with DEMGLASU.cre. (e): Actually, not true - in the .cre file itself, it is 70/160, but when I actually summon it, it has the full 160. Was demglasu.cre actually injured after you summoned it?

Edited October 15, 2021 by Bartimaeus

[Guest Alkaid]

2 minutes ago, subtledoctor said:

I'm not sure I really understand from your posts what the "funky" behavior is that you are concerned about.  FnP does not touch any .CRE files - even when radically overhauling druid shapeshifts, it supplies its own files.  It certainly doesn't reduce the current hp of any .CRE files.  FWIW, in my current game with SR + FnP + SCS (in that order!), both DEMGLASU and DWDBGLAB have 100 current/100 max hit points.

Ah, I don't mean FnP doing something itself directly, I mean that FnP introduces a new spell that gets skipped by SCS or something to that effect, desynced from the Level 8 Arcane spell. 
Something like this, perhaps:

>SRR has Summon Fiend
>FnP introduces a Summon Fiend too
>SCS splits off the CRE file and rediverts SRR's Summon Fiend while doing something weird to the original spell that FnP was using. The FnP summon effect spawns a Gla w/ 70/160HP and you can control it directly (while fighting the AI). 

Quote

FWIW, in my current game with SR + FnP + SCS (in that order!), both DEMGLASU and DWDBGLAB have 100 current/100 max hit points.

FWIW in my case, my install is based completely on your own example load order on the Scales page, with some stuff early in the order like Ascension/Wheels and NPC banter mods, it follows it almost verbatim. The one main difference was switching Song and Silence and Rogue Rebalancing to get RR to even install, though that should mainly affect the original Rogue or Bard kits. I think there was one other Rogue-related component I mucked up with Might and Guile (the Use Wands thing.) I also had to put SCS's IWD spells components immediately before FnP because the AI would error due to a missing Acid Rain scroll and fail to install.

This is my complete installation.

In regards to the DK stuff: I see. I can't say you're wrong there if they're meant to be that powerful.
Perhaps it would suit better as a HLA similar to Summon Planetar/Deva? 

[DavidW]

SCS isn't touching the FnP spell directly, it's touching DEMGLASU. It's adjusting hit points (in 'Improved Fiends') because I want to standardize hp before applying SCS's difficulty-based hp modifications (albeit I think the standardization is slightly funky - it should be setting hp to 80, not 70, and it shouldn't be leaving max hp unchanged).

[Guest Alkaid]

12 minutes ago, Bartimaeus said:

What component of SCS specifically did this? I installed the general better AI, smarter mages, and improved fiends after SRR and didn't notice anything amiss with DEMGLASU.cre. (e): Actually, not true - in the .cre file itself, it is 70/160, but when I actually summon it, it has the full 160. Was demglasu.cre actually injured after you summoned it?

No, it was definitely summoning them injured (and with full player control, although they had their own AI-script running simultaneously so it was like wrangling a firehose.)
Interesting yours has that HP on the creature file but works properly, though. Are you sure your version of the spell is still pointing to demglasu.cre and not SCS's one? 

I managed to rectify the problem by pointing the FnP Summon Fiend (D5P2807.SPL) at the SCS "summon" effect (DWDVGLA.EFF) rather than the base game (SPFIEND.EFF) one. That creates a full health Glabrezu that's uncontrollable and has the chance to turn hostile.

[subtledoctor]

1 hour ago, Guest Alkaid said:

my install is based completely on your own example load order on the Scales page

FWIW you can see my full install order here. 

Although, I’m currently using SCS v33, not v34, and I did not install Improved Fiends. That’s probably why my fiend .cre files look different.

Edited October 15, 2021 by subtledoctor

[DavidW]

3 hours ago, Guest Alkaid said:

No, it was definitely summoning them injured (and with full player control, although they had their own AI-script running simultaneously so it was like wrangling a firehose.)
Interesting yours has that HP on the creature file but works properly, though. Are you sure your version of the spell is still pointing to demglasu.cre and not SCS's one? 

In SCS:

- the default summoned fiends have an AI script intended for uncontrollable, hostile fiends

- if those fiends are summoned by an enemy (mostly this is liches, plus a very few living spellcasters) they swap to a much better-behaved, more controllable script

- there is a narrow and hidden route by which players can also summon controllable fiends. In that case, again they get the better behaved script. That script will only have the fiends cast spells if they have no player instructions running (and you can turn off their AI entirely by hotkey).

If SR is also installed, the player-summoned fiends are SR's, not SCS's, so the SCS behavior doesn't get seen at all.

In this case, it sounds as if FnP has a fiend-summoning spell that is supposed to summon a player-controlled fiend (in which case you'll get a fiend with a script that doesn't fit its allegiance). But without looking at the spell, I can't tell directly.