SR Revised V1.3.900 (2022 August 8th)

[raimn]

@Luke thanks for the advise, I'm using Linux however so that isn't really applicable.

@Bartimaeus It should call the lower case one 100% of the time, but it could call another one if that is the only one present, though that would depend on the case-sensitivity of the environment in question. If you want some peace of mind, I suggest changing the call to lower-case.
Returning to the original discussion, I finally got around to setting up my main installation again and when I reinstalled SRR with the friendly_spells_pierce option set to 1, which has been my default so far, the spells in question stopped dispelling the spell protections again. Could you test that? I took a look at the friendly_spells_pierce.tph but nothing there looked out of place to me.

[Bartimaeus]

1 hour ago, raimn said:

@Luke thanks for the advise, I'm using Linux however so that isn't really applicable.

@Bartimaeus It should call the lower case one 100% of the time, but it could call another one if that is the only one present, though that would depend on the case-sensitivity of the environment in question. If you want some peace of mind, I suggest changing the call to lower-case.
Returning to the original discussion, I finally got around to setting up my main installation again and when I reinstalled SRR with the friendly_spells_pierce option set to 1, which has been my default so far, the spells in question stopped dispelling the spell protections again. Could you test that? I took a look at the friendly_spells_pierce.tph but nothing there looked out of place to me.

Oh man, that might be it - I may have been included too many spells in my sweep for "friendly" spells and included ones that didn't need to be included. Let's see if that does the trick. Yes indeed, that is the culprit. Thanks for sticking with it and figuring it out for me - big whoops on my end. I've just updated the repository to clean out any self-targeting, non-AoE spells where it would be unnecessary to have that set anyways.

Edited October 1, 2021 by Bartimaeus

[raimn]

So one complete reinstallation later, I can say that everything is working as it is supposed to, Krystin died within a round of getting striped by Neera. Well everything related to this mod, my savegame needs some cleaning up, not sure if its SRR or SCS but spells apparently get dynamic names/files.

Thanks again for the help,
Raimn

[Lianos]

Feedback for a BG2+ToB 2.5 run
with Dragonspear UI++ 2.41, Tweaks Anthology v9, Ascension 2.0.20, SCS 34.3, SRR V1.3.547, IRR V1.3.550

• Contingency has a trigger called "Helpless". It's triggered when the character is e.g. stunned. However, it's not triggered when the character is feebleminded. IMO a feebleminded character IS helpless. (Feeblemind beeing permanent is very annoying btw.)
   
• Death Knights summoned by the resp. spell ignore characters protected with "Protection from Evil". They do not even defend themselves when they are attacked.
   
• I played with the "Dispel has a save" option enabled. It's cool to have a counter to "Triple Remove Magic" sequencers (e.g. Moment of Prescience). But SCS is rather fond of these spells and the game is a good chunk easier this way. Moreover multi class characters profit and already weak single class clerics and bards are nerfed. I am not completely convinced, but it is progress.

[FixTesteR]

Does IRR include potions revision? I'm asking because I cannot finish a side quest that involves bringing a Potion of Mind Focusing to Quoningar, a quest reinstated by Unfinished business, simply because all such potions are non-existant in my game.

[Lianos]

14 minutes ago, FixTesteR said:

Does IRR include potions revision?

Yes. But this is the SRR forum

18 minutes ago, FixTesteR said:

I cannot finish a side quest that involves bringing a Potion of Mind Focusing to Quoningar

Try to give him a Potion of Restoration.

[FixTesteR]

Lianos, you beat me to it literally by 4 minutes. I just did exactly that. I googled what the Potion of MF looked like, and then searched for the same bottle which turned out to be the Potion of Restoration. Thank you in any event. Good eve to you and yours, my friend. I'm off to Ramazith's Tower.

[Bartimaeus]

2 hours ago, Lianos said:

Contingency has a trigger called "Helpless". It's triggered when the character is e.g. stunned. However, it's not triggered when the character is feebleminded. IMO a feebleminded character IS helpless. (Feeblemind beeing permanent is very annoying btw.)

I'm not sure what the exact parameters of "helplessness" are - do you know what other states qualify? I can't make the feeblemindedness state trigger helplessness by itself, but it might be possible to trigger it with another effect.

2 hours ago, Lianos said:

Death Knights summoned by the resp. spell ignore characters protected with "Protection from Evil". They do not even defend themselves when they are attacked.

This is a little bit of an area of ignorance for me, because I don't use SR/R's revised fiends spells and instead use lightly modified versions of atweaks'. I was under the impression that SR's fiends do not respect "Protection from Evil" in general...but Death Knights are not supposed to automatically attack the party either, as far as I know.

2 hours ago, Lianos said:

I played with the "Dispel has a save" option enabled. It's cool to have a counter to "Triple Remove Magic" sequencers (e.g. Moment of Prescience). But SCS is rather fond of these spells and the game is a good chunk easier this way. Moreover multi class characters profit and already weak single class clerics and bards are nerfed. I am not completely convinced, but it is progress.

Thanks. I doubt anything will ever be perfect in regards to Dispel/Remove Magic - too difficult to get right with all of the different variables that go into trying to balance it.

Edited October 8, 2021 by Bartimaeus

[Lianos]

31 minutes ago, Bartimaeus said:

I was under the impression that SR's fiends do not respect "Protection from Evil" in general...

This was my expectation too.

28 minutes ago, Bartimaeus said:

but Death Knights are not supposed to automatically attack the party either, as far as I know.

Don't get me wrong here, I don't talk about Death Knights summoned by the party.

Death Knights summoned by enemy casters ignore the party if it is under the spell Protection From Evil.

[kjeron]

25 minutes ago, Bartimaeus said:

I'm not sure what the exact parameters of "helplessness" are - do you know what other states qualify? I can't make the feeblemindedness state trigger helplessness by itself, but it might be possible to trigger it with another effect.

While both of them disable the player from selecting the character and their inventory,

• Helpless renders all attacks against the creature as automatic hits.  Most/all sources of Helpless also hold the creature in place and disable their AI.
• Feeblemind just disables AI scripts.  A feebleminded character is only helpless from the players perspective, no different from panic, confusion, or berserk.

Only the Sleep(39), Stun(45), Paralyze(109), Web(157), Hold(175), Hold2(185), and Puppet Stats(237 - project image) opcodes apply STATE_HELPLESS.  Anything that applies those opcodes effectively will as well.

Time Stop is functionally identical to helpless but does not actually set the Helpless state.

Not even being dead counts as helpless (normal, petrification, or frozen).

[Lord_Tansheron]

Probably just a case of natural vernacular vs. specific terminology. "Helpless" is a pretty broad term when used colloquially, but the game's mechanics are very precise about it. It's nice to have the two be congruent, but of course that's difficult with broad, somewhat vague terms and can't always be achieved - see above's example with petrification for example, which is definitely more "helpless" in the vernacular sense than feeblemind would be, yet neither triggers "helpless" in a mechanical sense.

I guess you could argue that feeblemind would reduce you to a mental state where you couldn't even articulate helplessness, consciously or unconsciously. You'd be too stupid to even realize how stupid you are, that sort of thing.

[Bartimaeus]

6 hours ago, Lianos said:

Don't get me wrong here, I don't talk about Death Knights summoned by the party.

Death Knights summoned by enemy casters ignore the party if it is under the spell Protection From Evil.

Ah, sorry, misunderstood. O.K., will look into.

@kjeron Thanks. One of those could be used with like a duration of 1, I suppose, simply to trigger the helplessness state for a moment.

[kjeron]

24 minutes ago, Bartimaeus said:

Ah, sorry, misunderstood. O.K., will look into.

@kjeron Thanks. One of those could be used with like a duration of 1, I suppose, simply to trigger the helplessness state for a moment.

You would need to extend it to at least 2 rounds - the contingency only checks states once/round (modified by haste/slow).

[subtledoctor]

It sort of makes sense though... a contingency for “when helpless” will naturally respond to being tied up, paralyzed, unconscious, etc. But if you just... get real stupid? Theoretically able to function just fine, but too stupid to move or eat? I don’t know, if I was DM I’d probably say that contingency doesn't fire. 

[Lianos]

5 hours ago, subtledoctor said:

It sort of makes sense though... a contingency for “when helpless” will naturally respond to being tied up, paralyzed, unconscious, etc. But if you just... get real stupid?

Regardless how low the intelligence is, lifeforms will still react because of reflexes. They would try to escape from the pain when beaten up or even strike back. These reactions are not tied to intelligence.

Since the game takes a different approach here (starting at the definition of intelligence) that renders the affected character incapable of performing any action, I think he is indeed helpless in terms of gameplay mechanics.