How much should I charge for lichdom?

[Endarire]

As for why certain characters in-universe did what they did, their authors wrote them for whatever purposes.  I'm not trying to justify the actions of commoners in an adventurer's economy.  The game is primarily about CHARNAME, CHARNAME's party, what they do, and what happens to them.

To clarify, this is part of a quest to become a lich.  One of the requirements is being a caster (Bard, Cleric, Druid, Mage, Paladin, Ranger, Shaman, or Sor as one of your classes) with at least 11 levels in that class.  That excludes a lot of would-be liches.  (I'm going with 3.5ish reqs here.)

This also implies to me that 120K per lich is about right, though I may have an option to change it at install time.

As for the long-term RP consequences of lichdom, I had not seriously considered them, nor did I intend to enforce them.  Upon hearing your arguments, I may include something.  (If you want to mod this mod to add this stuff, it's your business.)

As for deities, Vecna in Greyhawk/Oerth is a lich god.  I presently don't understand what in the BG2 canon would prevent an Undead creature from absorbing Bhaal's essence and becoming divine.  This post regarding 2e Faiths & Powers makes Bhaal out to be at least tolerant of undeath.

Edited September 16, 2021 by Endarire

[temnix]

The thing is that the main characters splits into flying embers after being killed. That defeats the purpose of becoming a lich, who can just shuck himself off to his phylactery. Remember phylacteries? The corpse is only a vessel. The lich can attack others and take over their bodies from the phylactery with the magic jar spell, of which there are two different versions in AD&D, ALL OF WHICH goes to show how infinitely richer a game of imagination is to a computer game. I know that you probably simply want to give some powers at the price of gold, but people are going to perceive this as another kit. Or a prestige class. If you want to make the mod memorable, you should think about how to implement these important elements of lichdom - rare ingredients, the potion, even the phylactery.

I can suggest you a way to have this last. Edit BALDUR.BCS so that, the lich global set, the game can continue with Player1 dead, but only as long as someone in the party carries the phylactery. When it is dropped, the disintegration movie plays and it's game over (what a knife in the back from Edwin). Add instead the condition that if no one in the party is alive, the game should end. This is how it works in Icewind Dale, where there is no central character. This will make no visible difference until Player1 is a lich, because when everyone dies, that means him, too. But after lichdom the party will have this handy recourse in the inventory. I would implement it as follows: when the character becomes a lich, put on him immunity to Raise dead (which is correct PnP-wise, also, in fact, Raise dead destroys some types of undead - it re-deads them). Instead the surviving party members could use the phylactery as a once-a-day item. The phylactery would cast an offensive, hostile-making spell on its target, attempting to suck away the creature's life essence. If the saving throw failed, an invisible minion would be summoned and apply a resurrection spell to Player1, a spell with the Current hit points bonus effect, "Raise dead" ticked. Or possibly it would be enough to apply a Party-targeted "Use EFF File" with Instant/Permanent duration, channeled through to DEAD and LICH. This isn't over your head, is it? Anyway, the main character would then be resurrected.

[LordofBones]

On 9/15/2021 at 10:09 PM, subtledoctor said:

 

Finally, let's remember that the end quest here is for the Throne of Bhaal - not Myrkul. Myrkul is the god of undeath, while Bhaal is the god of murder, i.e. of dying, i.e. the god of the process of moving from life to death. If you become an immortal undead thing then you remove yourself from that process entirely. I would seriously suggest that a mod to allow Charname to become a lich should modify the end of the game, as such:

  Reveal hidden contents

While the normal game ending gives you a choice between taking Bhaal's power and becoming a god, vs. remaining a mortal, if Charname is a lich then the only choices should be 1) remain a lich, or 2) undo your lichdom and become a living mortal again (maybe the player will have buyer's remorse?) But the chance to become a god of murder/dying should not be available to an undead Charname.

IMO.

Myrkul never had the undeath portfolio. Specifically, he ruled over the dead, decay, wasting, corruption, parasites, old age, exhaustion, dusk and autumn. The current deity of undeath is Velsharoon, Archmage of Necromancy.

[subtledoctor]

1 hour ago, LordofBones said:

Myrkul never had the undeath portfolio. Specifically, he ruled over the dead, decay, wasting, corruption, parasites, old age, exhaustion, dusk and autumn. The current deity of undeath is Velsharoon, Archmage of Necromancy.

I don't know anything about "current," my head is stuck in 2E - when this game takes place. IIRC Bhaal was the god of murder, and Myrkul was the god of "the dead" or death. In IWD in the Vale of Shadows various undead guardians like Kresselack are devoted to/fueled by Myrkul. Velsharoon... (checking) oh okay I guess he was around back then. Okay. But that just supports the idea: Charname is a mortal spawn of Bhaal, and as a mortal you carry some of Bhaal's essence; but if you go so far as to strip yourself of any mortal aspects including your body (since you will esssentially become a phylactery) and become an undead creature under the purview of Velsharoon, then it makes sense that undergoing the transformation would eliminate your Bhaal essence.

Necessarily? No. But plausibly? Yes. Ultimately the maker of the mod is the one who writes this story, and it can work either way. But such a drastic transformation having drastic and even unpredictable trade-offs is a much more interesting story (IMHO) than "and then you get even MOAR POWERFUL!!1!1"

Edited September 16, 2021 by subtledoctor

[Guest Morgoth]

If this mod was in any way embedded into lore, it wouldn't exist at all. You guys are flying with downsides and so on, but the truth is that all is supposed to be is just an easy way to get a nifty amount of perks for basically free.

 

[subtledoctor]

7 minutes ago, Guest Morgoth said:

but the truth is that all is supposed to be is just an easy way to get a nifty amount of perks for basically free

Not sure how you know what it is "supposed" to be... it's vaporware right now, simple fodder for conversation. If you're not interested in such conversation, well, you don't have to be here...

[Guest Morgoth]

When someone compares Vecna (the serpent) with the Bhaalspawn, you can rest assured that there is no lore importance here. I will go a little further by saying that you have basically catched the point that if you went lich, you would forsake your divinity. I'm out of here

[InKal]

17 hours ago, Endarire said:

As for why certain characters in-universe did what they did, their authors wrote them for whatever purposes.  I'm not trying to justify the actions of commoners in an adventurer's economy.  The game is primarily about CHARNAME, CHARNAME's party, what they do, and what happens to them.

To clarify, this is part of a quest to become a lich.  One of the requirements is being a caster (Bard, Cleric, Druid, Mage, Paladin, Ranger, Shaman, or Sor as one of your classes) with at least 11 levels in that class.  That excludes a lot of would-be liches.  (I'm going with 3.5ish reqs here.)

This also implies to me that 120K per lich is about right, though I may have an option to change it at install time.

As for the long-term RP consequences of lichdom, I had not seriously considered them, nor did I intend to enforce them.  Upon hearing your arguments, I may include something.  (If you want to mod this mod to add this stuff, it's your business.)

As for deities, Vecna in Greyhawk/Oerth is a lich god.  I presently don't understand what in the BG2 canon would prevent an Undead creature from absorbing Bhaal's essence and becoming divine.  This post regarding 2e Faiths & Powers makes Bhaal out to be at least tolerant of undeath.

exellent! now, don't forget to equip npc fighters with Carsomyr and Improved Mace of Disruption for the real balance. and make all of them kensai/mages. now, you can lower the price of lichdom to 5gp.

[Guest Morgoth]

49 minutes ago, Guest Morgoth said:

 I'm out of here

And I'm back. So let's consider this from a pure roleplaying perspective. 

I will post what I think, so other can actually say I'm wrong and I enjoy reading the other people interpretation of lore.

 1) This post explains what's the current issue with the whole Bhaalspawn becomes a lich

2 hours ago, subtledoctor said:

[....] Charname is a mortal spawn of Bhaal, and as a mortal you carry some of Bhaal's essence; but if you go so far as to strip yourself of any mortal aspects including your body (since you will esssentially become a phylactery) and become an undead creature under the purview of Velsharoon, then it makes sense that undergoing the transformation would eliminate your Bhaal essence.

Necessarily? No. But plausibly? Yes. Ultimately the maker of the mod is the one who writes this story, and it can work either way. But such a drastic transformation having drastic and even unpredictable trade-offs is a much more interesting story (IMHO) than "and then you get even MOAR POWERFUL!!1!1"

 

2) I will go a little further. The amount of stats that you gain through lichdom would be offset by the amount of stats you would lose by neglecting your divinity. Basically you are either lich or you are the vessel (through your body) of your essence. There is no middle point. One could contest that the divinity is the reason you got high stats. A commoner has a bunch of 8, you start from 75. Why would you not be lower if you ain't Divine?

3) And there would neither be a Charname. There would be a party with a lich. No one would care about you anymore (probably) and you are free to not follow Irenicus. You just renounced to SoA campaign

4) Becoming a lich is not only a process that is supposed to be extensive, but also it should be meaningful for the player (and charname). Why would Charname renounce to his body, when he is at the height of his power, without anything to sacrifice (apart from gold) ?  And why does he believe into what an undead he met says? Such knowledge would not be found inside the cemetery from a keeper of the dead, but surely in dusty books or unexplored places. The only one that comes to my mind is the lower levels of Watcher's keep.

5) Finally, why I think it's completely botched. The second you become a lich, your philactery would be hunted. You are supposed to use counter magic to avoid divinatory spells to find your philactery. Where do you put it? How do you mimic the thrill of your philactery being hunted?

These are only 5 of the thoughts I had. But they confirm that the reason for making this mod is purely Powerplayish. So why not use Shadowkeeper to change your avatar and put the bonus you're looking for? You can even add your immortality by clicking CTRL+R on you when you're on the verge of death. After all, no one is hunting your philactery. I guess someone could say "eh, the philactery is on the body of one of my companions". Good luck trusting them
 

 

 

[subtledoctor]

Ha ha, okay I agree with you on all of that. For me, a "become a lich" mod has no place in these games. Just no place at all. But as long as someone is into the idea and wants to make it more than a replacement for 5 minutes in EEKeeper, then heck, why not talk about ways to make it at least a little bit interesting.

[Cahir]

4 hours ago, subtledoctor said:

Ha ha, okay I agree with you on all of that. For me, a "become a lich" mod has no place in these games. Just no place at all. But as long as someone is into the idea and wants to make it more than a replacement for 5 minutes in EEKeeper, then heck, why not talk about ways to make it at least a little bit interesting.

I agree with this. Look at new Pathfinder: Wrath of the Righteous, where there a Mythic Paths and one of those Paths is the Lich path. They have made it a central game mechanics which is integral part of the game design and not something that was added on top, because it would be fun. That way we are sure it makes sense, it fits to the game. Having a lichdom in IE games as much as appealing it may sound, is not a natural fit. It will always stand out, how much depends if the implementation.

[subtledoctor]

I mean that’s not to say someone shouldn’t do it if they want to! It just means it’s not for me. 

[temnix]

You are bashing from every side an idea that has a right to existence. The question is not whether lichdom can be implemented as in PnP rules (I myself only quoted the conditions because they make this more interesting, not less), it's not whether the process can be as long and drawn-out here, in a story that takes place over two-three years (during which the Bhaalspawn and a throng of his companions gained upwards of 20 experience levels), it's not whether the prospect of undeath would be plausible to someone who is, all right, not ten but maybe eighteen years of age. Those are just some of the questions Bioware people themselves could not answer about what they made. The only real question here is whether Endarire wants to go the length it would take to modify the concept, make it more palatable and both useful and engaging from the role-playing perspective - whether he wants to think about how to do that or just keep this as some kind of prestige class.

My main objection to traditional lichdom is that, however you look at it, the storyline from Candlekeep to the Throne of Bhaal simply doesn't span enough time. It's not a life chronicle of a wizard who, after decades of power and vicissitudes, began to consider immortality. It's a romp. But perhaps I'm too jaded and Charname simply had this inspiration to secure his future, even at eighteen or nineteen. No rot but UNDEAD for GENERAL, some immunities, no healing by Cure spells. Maybe Endarire could pull it off. Or he could go for a modified version of the process, for instance, with a phylactery, as I described. There is even a possible source, that necromancer in the planar sphere. Possibly Charname doesn't fancy slowly rotting away but found a means to survive death in a vessel. But powers for money isn't something I want to spend more time on.

[Almateria]

On 9/15/2021 at 4:15 PM, Bartimaeus said:

IIRC, lichdom is basically never truly enjoying anything ever again and becoming a complete husk of your former self, plus there is the vulnerability of the phylactery itself. However, neither of those can represented in these games, not really.

It is also an extremely evil deed in a universe where "evil" is a tangible, countable force.

[LordofBones]

On 9/17/2021 at 2:32 AM, Guest Morgoth said:

When someone compares Vecna (the serpent) with the Bhaalspawn, you can rest assured that there is no lore importance here. I will go a little further by saying that you have basically catched the point that if you went lich, you would forsake your divinity. I'm out of here

The Serpent is either Vecna's insanity or, in 3e terms, a vestige. The Ur-Flan probably were binders. 

Anyway, Mellifleur and Velsharoon are liches who became gods, Osiris is a god who happens to be a mummy (and died as a god before rising in undeath) and Kanchelsis is the god of vampires, so the spark of divinity evidently has nothing to do with undeath itself.