Sword Coast Stratagems v34 (edit: 34.3) now available

[jmerry]

1 hour ago, Christian said:

Is Antimagic Shell from the Icewind Dale component supposed to completely break beholders? I expected them to use their antimagic ray to dispel it, but they simply come towards the character and bite him. 

The conditions for SCS beholders to use antimagic rays (as of v34):

- The target is illusionary.

- The target has a primary spellcasting class and is not currently suffering from 100% spell failure.

- The target has buffs which offer specific protections against attack rays.

- The target has buffs from a "that's worth dispelling" list; for example, haste is on that list. This list is slightly different for hive mothers than it is for regular beholders, as the former break spell protections and the latter don't.

Now, what does Antimagic Shell do? It grants protection from spells of level 1-9 to the user, at the cost of imposing 100% spell failure. Duration 1 turn per level. The effects are not dispellable, but the spell has the "SPECIFICPROTECTIONS" type.

The first targeting condition? No. That's for popping clones, which pop anyway if they try to use Antimagic Shell. The second condition? Nope; a mage that used Antimagic Shell already has their spellcasting disabled, so there's no point using an antimagic ray to try and impose more spell failure. The third condition? Also no; that's about dispelling protections like Death Ward or Resist Fear or Chaotic Commands. Blanket immunity to spell levels doesn't do that. The fourth condition? That depends on what's on the lists, and your experience says that it isn't. Should it be?

To determine whether Antimagic Shell should be on either the beholder or hive mother lists as a protection to take down, we first need to check whether those spells can take it down. Antimagic Ray hits as level 0 (with the MAGICATTACK type), so the shell doesn't outright block it... but that's not the end of the story. The antimagic rays of a regular beholder dispel everything on the target, then impose a 100% spell failure debuff. And in SCS, full magic resistance with the same duration as that spell failure; anyone subject to the antimagic ray is also immune to attack rays until that wears off. That won't take out an Antimagic Shell, so the shell should not be on the list of things regular beholders want to antimagic down. It offers genuine immunity that the beholder can't break. How about a Hive Mother ray, then? The Hive Mother antimagic ray, in addition to the effects of a regular beholder's antimagic ray, also removes everything with the SPELLPROTECTIONS type, much like a Spellstrike. That ... won't remove an Antimagic Shell either. As long as that's true, the shell shouldn't be on the Hive Mother's list either.

So ... as things stand, Antimagic Shell protects against all beholderkin attack rays, in a way that neither beholders nor hive mothers can break with their antimagic rays. It's genuine full immunity to everything but their melee attacks, which lasts a very long time. If you also install the component that lets Spellstrike break scrolls of Protection from Magic, that component sets Spellstrike to hit as level 10 and also sets Antimagic Shell to the SPELLPROTECTIONS type so Spellstrike and Hive Mother rays (but nothing weaker than that) can break the spell. What I'm not sure of at the moment, as I don't currently have an SCS installation to check against, is whether the Hive Mother targeting script recognizes the difference there and becomes willing to target someone protected by a PfM scroll or Antimagic Shell.

TL/DR: Beholders don't use their antimagic rays to dispel Antimagic Shell, because their antimagic rays can't dispel Antimagic Shell anyway.

Edited February 12, 2023 by jmerry
Updated for v34 beholder AI change

[Christian]

Thank you for the detailed explanation. This will make dealing with beholders for some classes outright trivial (I will report back on hive mother, since I installed the component which allows Spellstrike to remove the Protection from magic effect). I am still wondering if this is intentional. If I remember correctly you get exactly two copies of the scroll in an entire playthrough. And now (I try the IWD spells for the first time now) you get basically the same effect as a level 6 mage spell. 

[subtledoctor]

6 hours ago, Christian said:

I am still wondering if this is intentional.

This wasn't all built together. The IWD spells were taken from IWD, which has only... three? beholders and much more rudimentary AI then SCS scripts. The main SCS AI component has some patches to enable enemies to make use of IWD spells and to make some IWD spells to work a bit better in the context of BG2, but it's basically just come compatibility patches. Most people using SCS will not be using the IWD spells and so this issue usually won't come up. So maybe it hasn't been optimized.

Anti-Magic Shell being a specific protection is weird - and is probably a legacy of it coming from IWD where you don't really have the BG2-style spell protection "mage chess" gameplay. I think changing it to a spell protection makes much more sense.

[Endarire]

Most people who use SCS don't use IWD spells?  I was surprised - and I'm unsure how true this is - considering IWD spells come packaged with SCS, even though IWDification is newer and should normally be used instead for said spells.

[polytope]

11 hours ago, Christian said:

Thank you for the detailed explanation. This will make dealing with beholders for some classes outright trivial (I will report back on hive mother, since I installed the component which allows Spellstrike to remove the Protection from magic effect). I am still wondering if this is intentional. If I remember correctly you get exactly two copies of the scroll in an entire playthrough. And now (I try the IWD spells for the first time now) you get basically the same effect as a level 6 mage spell. 

At the very least, Antimagic Sphere and Protection from Magic scrolls alike should both disallow self buffing and healing (through potion and item usage, two more buttons need to be disabled...).

I'm of the belief that IWD spells in SCS were not tested for balance and are much more of a benefit to the player than a threat in the hands of AI controlled opponents.

[polytope]

On 2/7/2023 at 12:50 AM, boof said:

I just realized that the improved shapeshifting component adds a lot more changes than was implied in the readme.
I installed it thinking it basically just changed shapeshifting to be instant via the tokens.
"Other than that, the effects of the shapeshift are largely the same as previously, though some of the ability score and attack bonuses have been tweaked slightly"
That's from the readme, but the changes to greater wolfwere and HLA transformation are rather massive (50% permanent physical resistance on earth elemental, wtf).
Can someone help me out and tell me which files I would need to edit, and what to edit within them exactly to remove these changes? Or if there's a way to install the component without these changes?
I don't disagree that the base game shapeshift powers are rather useless, but some of this stuff is kinda bonkers.

You may alter it as you please by finding the file stratagems > gameplay > shapeshift.tpa open with notepad and comment out, for instance, the references to both spr732 (the ability that creates the token) and dw#shear (the filename of the earth elemental attack for instance).

If you don't already know, when editing a tp2 or tpa you comment out lines you don't want like so:

 /* removed section */

be careful not to break the syntax by removing a BEGIN, END or LAF command.

I actually thought the druidic shapeshift abilities were balanced (in the current version anyway and definitely in comparison to the IWD spells), the 50% physical resistance while transformed into an earth elemental is intentionally unstackable with Hardiness (for f/d multi) or Armour of Faith, it's comparable to arcane Tenser's Transformation, since rather than doubling hp it halves damage (physical only though!), and of course being a much better damage dealer and having usually somewhat better AC than a wizard under TT, which is fine since it's a HLA after all.

[Christian]

29 minutes ago, polytope said:

At the very least, Antimagic Sphere and Protection from Magic scrolls alike should both disallow self buffing and healing (through potion and item usage, two more buttons need to be disabled...).

I'm of the belief that IWD spells in SCS were not tested for balance and are much more of a benefit to the player than a threat in the hands of AI controlled opponents.

As said, it is my first time trying it with those spells and I wasn´t sure what to expect. My primary motivation was making clerics a bit more competetive. Dispelling them is a joke with their vanilla BG/SCS repertoire.

As for buffs: Antimagic sphere clears buffs on the target which are not given by equipment. I didn't try using potions apart from healing potions.

[polytope]

30 minutes ago, Christian said:

As for buffs: Antimagic sphere clears buffs on the target which are not given by equipment. I didn't try using potions apart from healing potions.

Clears, but doesn't prevent subsequent application of by the user (in my version anyway), and that's the thing, inside an Antimagic Sphere Shell your character's potions should be, well, homeopathic in effect since magic isn't supposed to work inside it any more than it does in real life.

ETA: @jmerry on my version of IWD spells - that packaged with SCS - Antimagic Shell, (why did I keep calling it a sphere...) is both a spell protection rather than a specific one and sets the same detectable stats as the scroll of Protection from Magic, thus the most powerful beholders can remove it, as can Spellstrike (power level of 10 in my game version).

Edited February 13, 2023 by polytope

[Christian]

Since we are all gathered here: The random lich enemy spawn in the zombietown (unseeing eye quest) uses Trap the soul (additional to casting spells). I thought this ability belongs to demi liches?

Edited February 13, 2023 by Christian

[subtledoctor]

5 hours ago, polytope said:

on my version of IWD spells - that packaged with SCS - Antimagic Shell, (why did I keep calling it a sphere...) is both a spell protection rather than a specific one and sets the same detectable stats as the scroll of Protection from Magic

Pretty sure it is a specific protection in the IWD Spells component, and then altered by the AI component (which also makes changes to several other IWD spells like Impervious Sanctity of Mind and Entropy Sphere).

[jmerry]

The original resource the IWD spells component copies in is a specific protection, yes. The component that makes it a spell protection is specifically the Spellstrike component:

// set sectype of Antimagic Shell if it's present

LAF edit_spell INT_VAR allow_missing=1 STR_VAR spell="WIZARD_ANTIMAGIC_SHELL" editstring=~secondary=>1~ END

And ... huh. The next thing in that component is to set Spellstrike and the Hive Mother antimagic ray to power level 10. Here's SCS incidentally closing the Spell Shield/Antimagic Ray loophole, but only for Hive Mothers and only if you install this seemingly unrelated component.

[boof]

On 2/13/2023 at 5:40 AM, polytope said:

I actually thought the druidic shapeshift abilities were balanced (in the current version anyway and definitely in comparison to the IWD spells), the 50% physical resistance while transformed into an earth elemental is intentionally unstackable with Hardiness (for f/d multi) or Armour of Faith, it's comparable to arcane Tenser's Transformation, since rather than doubling hp it halves damage (physical only though!), and of course being a much better damage dealer and having usually somewhat better AC than a wizard under TT, which is fine since it's a HLA after all.

It stacks with both hardiness (if used before transforming) and AoF in my game.
Even if it didn't, with the tokens it gives you instant access to 50% phys res at any time, for as long as you want, for an investment of 1 HLA, as the token is permanent.
If it required multiple HLA points for every time you want to switch back to elemental form, I might agree that that would be balanced. But that's only assuming it didn't stack with hardiness and AoF, which it does.
In any case, thanks for pointing me to the relevant files. I can just edit the shear.itm in NI to something more sensible, as I would still like to be able to use the transformation instead of just outright pretending it doesn't exist. 

 

Edited February 17, 2023 by boof

[Christian]

Is Firkrags Lower resistance spell bugged? He cast it on one of my party members who was solely protected by the 3rd level Mage spell protection from fire and according to character screen fire resistance stayed at 100. 

[jmerry]

The draconic "Lower Fire Resistance" spell (which, by the way, is already used in the base game) allows a save to avoid its effects. Your party member made the save (vs spell, at -3).

[polytope]

4 hours ago, boof said:

It stacks with both hardiness (if used before transforming) and AoF in my game.
Even if it didn't, with the tokens it gives you instant access to 50% phys res at any time, for as long as you want, for an investment of 1 HLA, as the token is permanent.
If it required multiple HLA points for every time you want to switch back to elemental form, I might agree that that would be balanced. But that's only assuming it didn't stack with hardiness and AoF, which it does.

Turns out this works, I remember previously testing with an item that increases (while equipped) resistances by +50% and a durational spell or potion that sets to 50%, with the result being that resistances are stuck at 50%... but if it's done the other way around, with an equipable item setting and a timed duration spell or other such effect incrementing (which Hardiness and AoF do) then you end up with all the cumulative resistances. Effect order application is strange like that.

Obviously this needs to be addressed, in Enhanced Edition it's easy enough for the Shapeshift tokens to remove (in the instant of equipage) all effects specified by a .spl resource (like Hardiness), on vanilla engine you'd need to remove all 1st level combat protections (Hardiness and Armor of Faith both count), that's actually mostly fine because druids can't cast Shield or whatever except from the amulet.

Another problem is the that the tokens are usable by characters who shouldn't be able to use them, like ranger-clerics, F/M/Cs and monks in enhanced edition.

4 minutes ago, jmerry said:

The draconic "Lower Fire Resistance" spell (which, by the way, is already used in the base game) allows a save to avoid its effects. Your party member made the save (vs spell, at -3).

Seems intentional (because so few spells require a save at exactly -3, rather than -2, -4 or whatever).

Perhaps it should be -25% if your party members makes their save, -50% if they fail?