Cure/Cause wounds w.r.t. extraplanar and undead (split topic)

[Luke]

On 3/17/2022 at 3:31 AM, CamDawg said:

Spell fixes

• Resolving conflicts between spell description and what the spell actually does (generally in favor of the description)

Does this mean that BG cure / cause wounds spells / abilities should match their IWD counterparts (i.e., they should not affect unnatural creatures)...?

Spell description specifically states that "This healing cannot affect creatures without corporeal bodies, nor can it cure wounds of creatures not living or of extraplanar origin."

The most noticeable in-game effect would be that the player will no longer be able to heal NPCs such as Haer'Dalis or Caelar... Not much of an issue, right...?

[mickabouille]

Or Hexxat? (not living)

[Luke]

25 minutes ago, mickabouille said:

Or Hexxat? (not living)

Yep, definitely.

[mickabouille]

actually I don't even know if we can heal her in the unmodified game (never played with her).

Would be more sensible that not healing tieflings/aasimars, but it would definitely be a pain.

[CamDawg]

Yes. In this case specifically, we need to update the descriptions.

[Luke]

1 hour ago, mickabouille said:

actually I don't even know if we can heal her in the unmodified game (never played with her).

Yes, you can heal her...

1 hour ago, CamDawg said:

Yes. In this case specifically, we need to update the descriptions.

That's bad IMHO...

It appears as if the original devs wrote that clause but never actually implemented it because they did not think about potential unnatural joinable NPCs... and at the same time they thought the player would never waste his healing spells to heal his allied (summoned) skeleton warriors (though this may be relevant / noticeable when casting the 5th-level spell "Mass Cure"...)

On top of that, everything that applies op224 (Restoration) and op216 (Level Drain) should receive the same treatment (for consistency reasons – the fact that Haer'Dalis is vulnerable to Level Drain is kinda weird / bad), so in the end this would be a nerf and a buff at the same time...

Edited April 25, 2022 by Luke

[CamDawg]

More than likely the description--like everything else--was simply copied from PnP and then implemented within the framework of what makes a good game.

When we have a conflict, we look for other sources; e.g. Hive Mothers specifically target undead summons with Cause Wounds. The devs did not view this as a restriction.

 

[jmerry]

On restoration/level drain - Hexxat is immune to level drain, restoration, and the specific restoration spells through her amulet. She's also immune to fatigue.

So basically, that's how to handle it - if an NPC needs special considerations, that goes into the NPC's mechanics. Not the universal spells.

[Luke]

On 4/25/2022 at 7:04 PM, CamDawg said:

More than likely the description--like everything else--was simply copied from PnP and then implemented within the framework of what makes a good game.

When we have a conflict, we look for other sources; e.g. Hive Mothers specifically target undead summons with Cause Wounds. The devs did not view this as a restriction.

 

Yeah, you're right...

I also found this block

Spoiler

IF
	See(NearestMyGroupOfType([EVILCUTOFF.0.0.TANARI]))
	HPPercentLT(LastSeenBy(Myself),50)
	!HPPercentLT(Myself,50)
	!GlobalTimerNotExpired("Healing","LOCALS")
THEN
	RESPONSE #100
		SetGlobalTimer("Healing","LOCALS",ONE_ROUND)
		SetInterrupt(FALSE)
		SpellNoDec(LastSeenBy(Myself),CLERIC_CURE_CRITICAL_WOUNDS)  // SPPR502.SPL (Cure Critical Wounds)
		SetInterrupt(TRUE)
END

 

in "demsuc.bcs", which is equally weird... Guess I'll leave things as they are...

Anyway, since I've already written the code, I just commented it out in case you want to include it into the "Optional, but we think it's cool" mod component...

[CamDawg]

I've split this from the main 'what is a fix' discussion--I'd like that thread to be more philosophical, for lack of a better word, and not focused on individual fixes.

[Bartimaeus]

I've always wanted Cure Wound spells that would damage undead/extraplanars, and Cause Wound spells that would heal them. But it wouldn't really work due to the AI having no clue about it, so...

[Awachi]

Resurrection used to (p&p) be a good way to kill undead. 

[subtledoctor]

On 4/25/2022 at 6:32 AM, Luke said:

Does this mean that BG cure / cause wounds spells / abilities should match their IWD counterparts (i.e., they should not affect unnatural creatures)...?

Spell description specifically states that "This healing cannot affect creatures without corporeal bodies, nor can it cure wounds of creatures not living or of extraplanar origin."

The most noticeable in-game effect would be that the player will no longer be able to heal NPCs such as Haer'Dalis or Caelar... Not much of an issue, right...?

Just to step in and start a 2E PnP debate: there is nothing in the game rules that says tieflings cannot be affected by Cure Wounds spells. I take "of extraplanar origin" to mean beings of the outer planes (or, I guess, the inner planes) - not beings that simply reside there. Baatezu, tanar'ri, yugoloths, archons, devas, einheriar, modrons, guardinals, et al. are canonically evolved from base Petitioners - i.e. the spirits of dead mortals given form by the planes themselves. By contrast, mortals are not native to the outer planes - not literally made of the planes - but presumed to have arrived there from the Prime Material, even if it happened at some distant point in the past. Even tielfings are called "plane-touched," not born directly of the planes. They are at least 75%+ of mortal lineage. (And I think really supposed to be more like ~99%.)

All of which is to say, implementing that spell description does not mean you couldn't heal Haer'Dalis. It would mean blocking the spells from affecting fiends, devas, mephits, elementals, undead, and maybe genies and rakshasa. The actual effect on gameplay would be pretty minor. Of party-joinable NPCs you are only talking about Hexxat, Will of the Wisp, and maybe Verr'Sza.

Edited May 4, 2022 by subtledoctor

[CamDawg]

53 minutes ago, Awachi said:

Resurrection used to (p&p) be a good way to kill undead. 

Casting resurrection on a mummy in BG2 turns them into a commoner.

As for PnP: it's pretty clear the BG devs didn't care for this rule, as it's not implemented; as such a debate about the finer points of whether it applies to Haer'Dalis or Hexxat is not terribly relevant. For Hexxat, I can answer that definitively: I'm the one who made Hexxat's amulet(s), which is what sets her vampiric immunities, and being able to be healed was consciously allowed.

[subtledoctor]

Might be an interesting addition to IWDification.