Shambling mounds inconsistency in the trilogy

[Graion Dilach]

I'm not sure if this is something to fix, but I bring this up for discussion.

SoD split shambling mounds off from (earth) elementals into their own race but it only uses this new race value for that campaign only. Which affects Ranger favoured enemies.

Loosely related: the Black Pits' version use the earth elemental artwork.

[Luke]

Yes, this should be fixed (otherwise why having a separate RACE.IDS entry...?)

I'd also standardize their immunities and attack to the SoD variant (simply because it appears to be the most accurate variant...)

[Lava]

Also, according to wiki they are plants, not exactly monsters. There is a "plant" general type in these game, but I'm not sure they are really used. Actually it would be cool if shambling mounds and myconids were properly set as plants. I checked the FR wiki and that's the "type" they got in there. I guess general is "type".

I'm not sure if there are other usual kinds of creatures that would fit this "general" but it's a pity it's not used. (I am speaking of IWD EE right now, that's the resource I've been checking)

[DavidW]

I don't think consistency between the games - especially between IWD and the two BG games - is an appropriate design goal for a FP. They're different games, and (at least if we're talking about content that's come through unmodified from the pre-EE games) they had different developers. Insofar as those teams made different judgement calls about how to implement D&D concepts, there's no reason to standardize them.

(Similarly, umber hulks and beholders are implemented very differently in IWD from BG2. But that's not a bug.)

[Lava]

Yet they are all D&D and books are very specific what those creatures are. And FP have components so you can still chose.

Edited June 19, 2022 by Lava

[Graion Dilach]

Plant is already used in SoD so the dev intent is there (also see the troll discussion) and it is among the factors why I opened this topic. I haven't looked at IWD and I agree it isn't relevant here. Apparently, the animation issue in Black Pits comes from somewhere else and/or an older version and is no longer a bug.

Nonetheless, this is inconsistent even within the games.

Shared between SoD and BG2EE:

GLOBSHAM.CRE:

• General: MONSTER - 255
• Race: ELEMENTAL - 145
• Class: ELEMENTAL_EARTH - 188

SMOUNDSU.CRE:

• General: GIANTHUMANOID - 5
• Race: ELEMENTAL - 145
• Class: ELEMENTAL_EARTH - 188

SoD-only:

BDSHAMB.CRE:

• General: PLANT - 7
• Race: SHAMBLING_MOUND - 176
• Class: None - 0

BPSHAMB.CRE:

• General: MONSTER - 255
• Race: ELEMENTAL - 145
• Class: ELEMENTAL_EARTH - 188

BG2EE-only:

HGMND2.CRE:

• General: GIANTHUMANOID - 5
• Race: ELEMENTAL - 145
• Class: ELEMENTAL_EARTH - 188

HGMOUND.CRE:

• General: GIANTHUMANOID - 5
• Race: ELEMENTAL - 145
• Class: ELEMENTAL_EARTH - 188

SMOUND01.CRE:

• General: GIANTHUMANOID - 5
• Race: ELEMENTAL - 145
• Class: ELEMENTAL_EARTH - 188

Edited June 19, 2022 by Graion Dilach

[Lava]

22 minutes ago, Graion Dilach said:

I haven't looked at IWD and I agree it isn't relevant here.

I think I will just start posting my own threads, cause I just do not see why something is or isn't "relevant". In my opinion it is relevant: it's the same world, same system, same studio, same engine, same ruleset etc. Fixpack is both about BG and IWD and I do not udnerstand why we can't include IWDEE in such discussions. Especially since BG and IWD are now officially linked thanks to SoD plot.

I thought I would add a vote for making the "general" field consistent between all these game and add myconids / shriekers if "plants" general is put to use that's all.

[Graion Dilach]

IWD isn't really the same ruleset, there are too many systematic differences (spell system, more lore-accurate implementations) which shows (stylistical conflicts between Black Isle art and reused Bioware assets, mob AI scripts defined in the area files instead of CRE fields). Handling it separately can also be justified from the lore-side because it predates the Time of Troubles.

SoD does bleed in a fair amount of the IWD aspects though.

[Lava]

Not sure what Time of Troubles has to do with creature type. These are the same creatures. And art style is also different betwen BG1 and BG2 yet it's hard not to agree it's the same world and monsters. The presence of Belhifet in SoD also makes it clear it's all connected. EE Fixpack already includes IWD EE and PST EE. I do not see a reason (I really don't) why this can't be a component in IWD EE.

[DavidW]

So: the underlying design assumptions of the Fixpack are absolutely up for debate but the design assumption we're currently using (following the BG2 fixpack) is: developer intent, i.e. something is a bug if it is not working the way (we can reasonably surmise that) the developers of the game wanted it to work.

I'll use umber hulks as an example again. In PnP,, they have a gaze attack that causes confusion. In BG2, Bioware implemented this by getting them to cast HULK_CONFUSION, a single-target confusion spell, once per round. In IWD, Black Isle implemented it by getting them to cast the self-targeted spell INNATE_UMBER_HULK_GAZE, which is basically an aura effect that causes any creature coming in close proximity to the Umber Hulk to be targeted by confusion. 

Both of these are perfectly defensible implementations of a PnP mechanic within the limitations of the Infinity Engine, but more importantly, there's no reason to think either is working other than as-intended by the respective developer teams. So I wouldn't say that either of them should be adjusted by a bugfix.

When the Enhanced Editions come out, we now have the same studio working on both games. And Beamdog could have had an explicit design goal to unify the mechanics of the two games so as to work the same way. If they did, but umber hulks were missed out, arguably one or other implementations would count as a bug. But it is completely clear that Beamdog made no adjustments to IWD mechanics simply in order to conform to BG2, or vice versa. (That's obvious just by looking at the files, but I can also speak from experience as one of the people involved in IWDEE.) So: mismatches between how a creature functions in IWDEE and in BG2EE aren't bugs, by the developer-intent definition of 'bug'.

It is perhaps worth stressing here how widespread and sweeping the differences are between the rule systems in IWDEE and BG2EE. Many, many spells operate differently; many classes have different abilities; mage opposition schools are different; all manner of creatures, from beholders to umber hulks to salamanders to liches, function quite differently. It's far deeper than just artwork: these are fundamentally different implementations of AD&D (or an AD&D/3e hybrid) on the infinity engine.

There are perfectly good mods to be made that take IWD rules and port them to BG2, or vice versa. (Indeed, IWDification, which I co-authored, is one such mod.) But they'd be mods, not components of a fixpack.

[CamDawg]

David's already covered this pretty well, so I'll just add a few points.

Inconsistency within the BG series (say, BGEE vs. BG2EE) is always worth a closer look, but we still can't generalize too much. BGEE has, for the most part, been updated to use BG2EE rules but there are still deliberate exceptions, e.g. enchanted arrow damage. In this case, a ranger inconsistently getting bonuses vs. favored enemies within the series--or even within a game--is something to be fixed.

In this specific case, I like the idea of changing the race to shambling mound and blanking the class, primarily because it means they won't be subject to something like the Ring of Earth Control or the Staff of Earth. The general field's a little trickier as it's used a lot more places--I can't think of anything that targets general: plant in the BG series, whereas gianthumanoid is used a couple of places (e.g. Kneecapper or Root of the Problem). 

[Lava]

21 minutes ago, CamDawg said:

The general field's a little trickier as it's used a lot more places--I can't think of anything that targets general: plant in the BG series, whereas gianthumanoid is used a couple of places (e.g. Kneecapper or Root of the Problem).

Perhaps my mistake is thinking that Fixpack is also to make mods work smoother by introduction of logical pattern and make it PnP accurate and books say clearly "it's a plant" - as, for example, an optional component. I am also thinking of items that can be added by mod: like items that use general: plant to increase damage vs. plants. I already did that before and each time I need to use race for all the possible plant creatures.

And there is nothing for interpretation here: it just says "plants" and refference books describe that creature in such manner and a plant is not a humanoid.

I already kinda gave up on thinking that Fixpack is to make something as it's described in the books, so... I consider that a fix, because it's not how these creatures are described in the books that were a base for this game, but I don't feel like fighting any more for that.

Edited June 20, 2022 by Lava

[Graion Dilach]

I've been there, @Lava... I still can't accept Bioware giving a noname bow to Catti-brie while also handing out a not-Taulmaril Heartseeker in the game... but I've accepted it already Fixpack isn't the place for that.

I've only skimmed the attacks and the immunities and that is also varied between the monsters, but I let others judge if that needs further standardization as well, since that affects game difficulty and have balance/gameplay implications.

[jastey]

38 minutes ago, Lava said:

that Fixpack is to make something as it's described in the books, so... I consider that a fix

And that's highly debatable. I for example don't think that's a fix in the sense of fixpack for this game but a P&P tweak. The game violates the rules at several places, changing those wouldn't be fixes exactly. Exaggrated example: stripping Anomen from his priest class because his WIS is not high enough? And kicking him out of the Order of the Radiant Heart because he's not a paladin, while we are at it.

 

 

[Lava]

5 minutes ago, jastey said:

And that's highly debatable. I for example don't think that's a fix in the sense of fixpack for this game but a P&P tweak. The game violates the rules at several places, changing those wouldn't be fixes exactly. Exaggrated example: stripping Anomen from his priest class because his WIS is not high enough? And kicking him out of the Order of the Radiant Heart because he's not a paladin, while we are at it.

I don't think coding plant as a humanoid is exactly that. But nevermind. Really.