Winter Wolf Pelts: 2nd journal entry says merchant eager to buy "pelts" (plural), but he buys only one

[ktchong]

Does SCS make undocumented change to BGEE so the player can only sell one pelt to the Nashkel store?

The second/final journal entry for the "Winter Wolf Pelt" quest says:

In Nashkel I found a merchant eager to buy winter wolf pelts.

Pelts.  Plural.   

Not sure why buying/selling anything in stores is any of the business of SCS. This mod was supposed to modify and improve the combat AI of enemies. 

Moreover, this change — which is beyond the stated purpose and scope of the mod — is not documented anywhere in the readme.

 

Edited February 17 by ktchong

[gatperdut]

I personally find it a nice touch, whether documented or not. Also, your post comes across a bit as a project manager's

[jmerry]

It's definitely an intentional change, which has been in as long as I've known the mod. But I'm not sure which component it's associated with, and it's the sort of thing that really should be documented somewhere.

You can, of course, sell pelts to a number of merchants, including the shops at High Hedge and Feldepost's Inn. You'll get half as much as the Nashkel merchant's price, at least before depreciation sets in.

[RoyalProtector]

On 2/18/2024 at 8:16 AM, gatperdut said:

your post comes across a bit as a project manager's

Indubitably.

Is someone going to get fired? Eek! Run for your lives!

[Thacobell]

Oh, so that's what's causing this. Weird tone aside, this is kind of an annoying change that causes a contradiction with what the game says.

[ktchong]

From the Winter Wolf Pelts entry in the Baldur's Gate Wiki:

 

Quote

In the original Baldur's Gate, every Winter Wolf pelt the storekeeper buys is placed in his inventory. After buying 20 pelts, his inventory will be full, and any pelt he buys after this point will be dropped at his feet. It is possible to pick up these pelts and resell them to him repeatedly. The Enhanced Edition fixes this by having him destroy every pelt as soon as he buys it.

 

We can conjecture from how and why BGEE fixed that bug: the original intention of the game developers was for the Nashkel storekeeper to buy more than one winter wolf pelts. 

So, the change SCS made to the Nashkel storekeeper and winter wolf pelts is:

• Not documented;

• Installed into the game without the user's knowledge or permission, without giving the user a chance to opt out during installation;

• Contradicts the wordings in the associated journal entry;

• Goes against the original intention of the game, which is for storekeeper to keep buying winter wolf pelts.

Why would SCS even make that change?  Seems to me the only reason was to make is to make the game more difficult for no good reason, by going outside the stated intention and scope of the mod, (which was to enhance the combat AI of enemies.)

 

Edited February 22 by ktchong

[jmerry]

... OK, I found it. This one's in the "initial" component. From bg1fix.tpa:

///////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////
//Remove the Nashkel merchant's amnesia
///////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////

ACTION_IF is_tutu BEGIN
         LAF install STR_VAR file=~nashkelwolf_tutu.d~ location=dlg END
END ELSE
ACTION_IF enhanced_edition=1 BEGIN
         LAF install STR_VAR file=~nashkelwolf_ee.d~ location=dlg END
END ELSE BEGIN
         LAF install STR_VAR file=~nashkelwolf_bgt.d~ location=dlg END
END

ADD_JOURNAL EXISTING @22508

The dialogue files add that new line, cutting you off at one pelt. With slight variations for some older versions of the game.

This ... does not belong in the initial component. It's not an essential bug-fix, and it's not setup for anything else. It should be one of those little tweaks in the "gameplay" grouping.

[ktchong]

15 hours ago, jmerry said:

... OK, I found it. This one's in the "initial" component. From bg1fix.tpa:

...

The dialogue files add that new line, cutting you off at one pelt. With slight variations for some older versions of the game.

This ... does not belong in the initial component. It's not an essential bug-fix, and it's not setup for anything else. It should be one of those little tweaks in the "gameplay" grouping.

 

It should be its own component and, more importantly, let users opt out of it.

[Trouveur80]

23 hours ago, ktchong said:

• Not documented;

It is actually, in the readme-scs file in the doc directory :

"Correct various errors on race, class etc.

The full list of corrections is:

24 - The amnesia of the Nashkel merchant is corrected: he doesn't now comment on a winter wolf having been seen more than once. (If you can't stand this subcomponent, use the console and enter CLUAConsole:SetGlobal("DMWWNashkelPelt","GLOBAL",2) )"

[ktchong]

I uninstalled SCS, opened and edited "/stratagems/initial/bg1fix.tpa", commented out the entire segment of "Remove the Nashkel Mrchant's Amnesia", and then reinstalled SCS, (while also skipping a few other components that were poorly conceived/implemented and causing problems.)

Now the Nashkel storekeeper  is working properly as BGEE had originally intended with an official fix, i.e., he buys any additional winter wolf pelts after the first sale.

Edited February 23 by ktchong

[jastey]

8 hours ago, Trouveur80 said:

It is actually, in the readme-scs file in the doc directory :

It's already discussed in the other thread, but I'll repeat for completeness sake: The readme called upon mod installation is readme-stratagems.html, and there this info is not included.

I second that such changes should be properly documented, and ideally split into an optional component. This is a (rather random, at least to me) tweak, not a fix.

[DavidW]

This was a fun thing to look into - it goes back right to the dawn of SCS; I've literally not touched it since I did the frantic EE-ification of SCS ten years ago. (I'll bracket mild irritation with the tone in the OP as not a big deal.)

That bit of code has been in the mod (I think) since its first public release. It was originally part of SCS I's 'fix minor BG errors' component, and has long since been rolled into the general 'initialize' component; its documentation got lost at some point, probably in the merging of SCS and SCSII.

The rationale might be clearer if you look at the original BG dialog (moved over unchanged to TUTU, which was SCS's original home). Here's the shopkeeper's dialog in its entirety:

Quote

BEGIN ~SHOPKN~

IF ~!PartyHasItem("MISC01")
~ THEN BEGIN 0 // from:
  SAY #361 /* ~Interested in a little business on the side, friend?  I've a man who swears by his grandmother he glimpsed a white wolf up in the Cloudpeak ice fields.  It was but a short ways south, and she be easy pickings for a smart sword.  I'd pay you good money for its pelt, so it's a guaranteed sale if you go.  Keep it in mind on your travels.  Can I interest you with anything here in my humble shop?~ */
  IF ~~ THEN REPLY #15285 /* ~Yes, what do you have for sale?~ */ DO ~StartStore("sto4803",LastTalkedToBy())~ JOURNAL #7122 /* ~The Merchant of Nashkel has promised us gold if we were to bring back a winter wolf pelt.~ */ EXIT
  IF ~~ THEN REPLY #15286 /* ~Nothing right now.~ */ EXIT
END

IF ~PartyHasItem("MISC01")
~ THEN BEGIN 1 // from:
  SAY #8790 /* ~There be a fine looking pelt, if I have ever seen one.  Good on you!  Here is a fair price for you.  Pleasure doing business with you.~ */
  IF ~~ THEN DO ~TakePartyItem("MISC01")
GiveGoldForce(500)
~ EXIT
END

The shopkeeper is talking about a specific winter wolf. He's offering you gold for that specific wolf's pelt. The journal quest entry is singular, and so is the quest-acknowledgement section. But if you come back again, you get exactly the same story about the same specific wolf. I think I want to hold onto the claim that this is a bug. These days I probably wouldn't put bugfixes into SCS, but back in 2006(?) when I released it there weren't a lot of mods for TUTU.

Here's the same dialog as it appears in BGEE 2.6:

Quote

BEGIN ~SHOPKN~

IF ~  NumberOfTimesTalkedTo(0)
~ THEN BEGIN 0 // from:
  SAY #361 /* ~Interested in a little business on the side, friend? I've a man who swears by his grandmother he glimpsed a white wolf up in the Cloudpeak ice fields. It was but a short ways south, and she be easy pickings for a smart sword. I'd pay you good money for its pelt, so it's a guaranteed sale if you go. Keep it in mind on your travels. Can I interest you with anything here in my humble shop?~ */
  IF ~~ THEN REPLY #15285 /* ~Yes, what do you have for sale?~ */ DO ~StartStore("sto4803",LastTalkedToBy(Myself))
~ UNSOLVED_JOURNAL #27433 /* ~Winter Wolf Pelts
In Nashkel I found a merchant eager to buy winter wolf pelts.~ */ EXIT
  IF ~~ THEN REPLY #15286 /* ~Nothing right now.~ */ UNSOLVED_JOURNAL #27433 /* ~Winter Wolf Pelts
In Nashkel I found a merchant eager to buy winter wolf pelts.~ */ EXIT
END

IF ~  !PartyHasItem("MISC01")
~ THEN BEGIN 1 // from:
  SAY #15371 /* ~Show me a pretty bit of gold and you can have anything in the store.~ */
  IF ~~ THEN REPLY #15372 /* ~I've got the gold, but have you anything I need?~ */ DO ~StartStore("sto4803",LastTalkedToBy(Myself))
~ EXIT
  IF ~~ THEN REPLY #15373 /* ~Sorry, but I'm keeping my coins to myself today.~ */ EXIT
END

IF ~  PartyHasItem("MISC01")
~ THEN BEGIN 2 // from:
  SAY #8790 /* ~There be a fine-looking pelt, if I have ever seen one. Good on you! Here is a fair price for you. Pleasure doing business with you.~ */
  IF ~  Global("bd_shopkn_journal_once","locals",0)
~ THEN DO ~SetGlobal("bd_shopkn_journal_once","locals",1)
TakePartyItem("MISC01")
DestroyItem("MISC01")
EraseJournalEntry(27433)
AddJournalEntry(27433,QUEST_DONE)
GiveGoldForce(500)
~ EXIT
  IF ~  GlobalGT("bd_shopkn_journal_once","locals",0)
~ THEN DO ~TakePartyItem("MISC01")
DestroyItem("MISC01")
GiveGoldForce(500)
~ EXIT
END

Beamdog agree with me that it's a bug, and they fix it too, but differently. They put 'NumberOfTimesTalkedTo' onto the first dialog block, so you only get the story about the winter wolf once. They add a new block with a rather generic storekeeper line and response (actually copied from a storekeeper in Baldur's gate, SHOP01.CRE). And they edit the journal line (I guess as part of their general shift of the journal system) to refer to pelts plural. 

I find their fix clunky, to be honest. The journal entry contradicts the actual text from the merchant (which is clearly just talking about one winter wolf), and it's never great to re-use dialog (the two merchants are somewhat different tonally, though it's scarcely a big deal). Still, Beamdog obviously wanted to prioritize keeping the existing mechanics, and have constraints about adding dialog lines that aren't so much of an issue for a private modding project.

(What the original design intent is, who knows? The OP is confident that Bioware intended you to be able to sell unlimited pelts. I'm not so sure: the original dialog is pretty clear and original BG is systematically terrible at handling various edge cases where you talk to people again after they've given you a quest. But we'll never know for sure.)

Anyway, hopefully that gives some insight as to what that component was doing there in the first place. But from the perspective of 2024, and given that (however clunkily) Beamdog have clearly addressed this issue in its own right, I agree it probably belongs in its own component right now. I probably should have caught that a decade ago when I EE-ified the component, but at the time I was frantically trying to get SCS EE-ready as close as possible to launch as a favor to Beamdog, and rethinking (as opposed to just recoding) little bits of the mod was quite low priority.

(It actually is a tactical component, in a way, since serially selling winter wolf pelts in my view breaks the early-game economy in the player's favor, but people should of course decide that for themselves.)

[CamDawg]

The BD fix is to address a slightly different issue. If you already have a pelt in your inventory when you first chat with the merchant, they will simply take it as if you already heard his request. As you've already touched upon, many (if not most) BG quests were fragile in that dialogues assumed an order of events and broke easily or skipped major sections if anything was out of sequence. BD had to do a lot of cleanup to add flexibility to them.

 

[DavidW]

Makes sense, though I assume the pluralizing of the journal entry is in response to the 'you can do it multiple times' thing.

[suy]

7 hours ago, DavidW said:

It actually is a tactical component, in a way, since serially selling winter wolf pelts in my view breaks the early-game economy in the player's favor, but people should of course decide that for themselves

Tinkering with the game economy is one of the reasons why I like this changes in SCS. I have so much knowledge of the game, that this little tweaks add necessary challenge to me, the same way that the Item Randomizer changes to the "easter egg" items (ring, diamond, and ankheg plate mail in small caches) are also welcome.