SR V2.9

[aVENGER_(RR)]

You've opted to a full immunity to blunt weapons, I was concerned about how the AI would respond to it as this would allow a shambler to destroy an army of golems without even a scratch.

 

I wouldn't worry about it. Every decent AI mod (SCSII, Quest Pack, BP, RR...etc.) checks for physical resistances (primarily to detect Mordenkainen's Swords) and you don't even need Detectable Spells for that. Anyway, that's how shamblers work in PnP (and in Icewind Dale 1, for example) and if that makes them into perfect Golem killers then so be it.

 

You're right...it's only that a shambler with so many hit dices seem strange to me. I don't like a mere shambler to have as many HD as some of the most powerful creatures in the realms, but it's more an aesthetic problem than a balancing one.

 

Not really, even in the unmodded game you can summon 16 HD and 24 HD elementals with a simple level 6 spell (Conjure x Elemental).

 

Anyway though I like the concept I'm not sure about the dexterity penalty...did you took the idea from 3rd edition entangle where instead of -2 penalty to AC you get -4 penalty to dexterity? I have two objections to this change: (1) the penalty to AC would be either reduntant or too much imo (2) most vanilla's creatures have very messed up statistics, and more often than not a plain AC penalty is much more reliable than a dexterity penalty.

 

Generally, I never use decremental values for attribute penalties in order to avoid enemies dying from having their attribute scores drained. In such cases, I always prefer to set the attribute score to a low value instead, in this particular case, I set the dexterity of the victim to 8 for the duration of the entanglement).

[Demivrgvs]

You've opted to a full immunity to blunt weapons, I was concerned about how the AI would respond to it as this would allow a shambler to destroy an army of golems without even a scratch.

I wouldn't worry about it. Every decent AI mod (SCSII, Quest Pack, BP, RR...etc.) checks for physical resistances (primarily to detect Mordenkainen's Swords) and you don't even need Detectable Spells for that. Anyway, that's how shamblers work in PnP (and in Icewind Dale 1, for example) and if that makes them into perfect Golem killers then so be it.

So be it.

 

You're right...it's only that a shambler with so many hit dices seem strange to me. I don't like a mere shambler to have as many HD as some of the most powerful creatures in the realms, but it's more an aesthetic problem than a balancing one.

Not really, even in the unmodded game you can summon 16 HD and 24 HD elementals with a simple level 6 spell (Conjure x Elemental).

Yeah, but I've limited the 6th level spell to summon up to 16HD elementals, because considering Archomentals (Elemental Princes which rule all other elementals) have 20HD both in PnP and BG2 I cannot understand 24HD common elementals. As I said it's not a big deal, it's just that imo it slightly "ruins" the consistency to have a "common" creature with so many hit dice...when I see 20-25 level creatures I prefer them to be powerful demons/devils, elemental princes, liches, and so on. Anyway...it doesn't really matter so much.

 

Anyway though I like the concept I'm not sure about the dexterity penalty...did you took the idea from 3rd edition entangle where instead of -2 penalty to AC you get -4 penalty to dexterity? I have two objections to this change: (1) the penalty to AC would be either reduntant or too much imo (2) most vanilla's creatures have very messed up statistics, and more often than not a plain AC penalty is much more reliable than a dexterity penalty.

Generally, I never use decremental values for attribute penalties in order to avoid enemies dying from having their attribute scores drained. In such cases, I always prefer to set the attribute score to a low value instead, in this particular case, I set the dexterity of the victim to 8 for the duration of the entanglement).

I wasn't referring at how you're implementing it, because I knew you would have used 'set DEX' to 6-10 to avoid issues. My point was that the AC penalty already does what the DEX penalty is supposed to do, and that it does it more reliably imo.

[aVENGER_(RR)]

As I said it's not a big deal, it's just that imo it slightly "ruins" the consistency to have a "common" creature with so many hit dice...when I see 20-25 level creatures I prefer them to be powerful demons/devils, elemental princes, liches, and so on. Anyway...it doesn't really matter so much.

 

For reference, in RR, only the Greater Shambler has 20 HD and Druids can summon it once they reach level 25 (i.e. Epic levels). The standard Shambling Mound has 16 HD (and can be summoned at level 14) while the Lesser Shambler has 12 HD.

 

I wasn't referring at how you're implementing it, because I knew you would have used 'set DEX' to 6-10 to avoid issues. My point was that the AC penalty already does what the DEX penalty is supposed to do, and that it does it more reliably imo.

 

You're probably right about the AC penalty being more relevant in BG2 (due to screwed up creature statistics) but I personally prefer to eliminate the DEX bonus to AC for entangled creatures mainly because I like that better and because I'm currently using it for the entangle effect of RR's Bounty Hunter snares. This is purely subjective though, so feel free to use whatever you prefer in SR.

[Demivrgvs]

Another consistent progress report, and a spell which I'm testing right now and needs a good discussion imo.

 

Polymorph Other

I've re-done it from scratch as I did with Polymorph Self and Shapechange. I have two things to discuss, and for the first I need DavidW and/or aVENGER opinion:

- should this spell disable target's ability to cast spells? It should imo, but perhaps developers chosed to not implement it to avoid issues with the AI. Would SCS and RR scripts be able to handle it? In theory the only way to handle it would be for another creature to cast dispel on a polymorphed ally, which I don't think it's currently included in any script.

- isn't this spell too powerful for a 4th level spell? A polymorphed creature after will get all physical attributes to 3, thac0 20, 1apr, 1-2 damage and all saves at 20...thus it's almost a cheap insta-kill spell, am I wrong? I would limit the spell effectiveness based on target's HD/level (e.g. doesn't affect creatures with more HD than the caster or something like that).

 

 

The following spells are completed and implemented, but we may add further changes if needed.

 

Larloch's Minor Drain

I've slightly improved it at player's request. "With this spell, the wizard drains the life force from a target and adds it to his own. The target creature suffers 2 points of damage, while the mage gains 2 hit points. For every three levels of the caster the draining is augmented by 2 points (up to a miximum of 10 points at 12th level). If the mage goes over his maximum hit point total with this spell, he loses it after 1 turn".

 

Clairvoyance

It was another useless Divination spell imo, thus I've drastically changed it into: "This spell grants an unnatural perception of things to come. Once clairvoyance is cast, the caster receives instantaneous warnings of impending danger or harm. He is never surprised and cannot be backstabbed. In addition, the spell gives a general idea of what action might be taken to best protect oneself and grants a +2 insight bonus to AC and saves vs. breath. The effects of this spell last 10 rounds, and cannot be negated in any way". The bonuses may seem not too amazing, but the fact alone that they cannot be neither dispelled nor breached should be an interesting feature. What do you think?

 

Fire Shields

The damage inflicted now improves with caster levels: "1d6 points of fire/cold damage plus one for every two levels of the caster (up to a maximum of 1d6+10)". Thus starts at 1d6+3 (which is almost as vanilla's fixed 1d8+2), and improves quite slowly. I've decided to not make it deal as much damage as per 3rd edition (which is 1d6+15) because these two shields can stack in BG (whereas they can't in 3rd edition PnP), and 2d6+20 points of damage seems already a quite effective.

 

Harper's Call

Fixed and added to SR spells for consistency.

 

Power Word Silence/Blind/Stun/Kill

All PW spells now belongs to the Enchantment school, and scroll have been changed to reflect this. There was not a single spell belonging to the Enchantment school at 6th, 7th, 8th, and 9th level! In 3rd edition all Power Words belong to Enchantment School instead of Conjuration, and I think it's both appropriate and very useful to "rebalance" the schools.

 

Contingency & Chain Contingecy

These spells now belongs to the Universal school, and scroll have been changed to reflect this. I've also changed them to not ignore game pauses anymore. I'm also going to test if they can be made not-castable during combat.

 

Spell Sequencers/Triggers

These spells now belongs to the Universal school, and scroll have been changed to reflect this. I'm also going to test if they can be made not-castable during combat.

 

(Limited) Wish

These spells now belongs to the Universal school, and scroll have been changed to reflect this.

[aVENGER_(RR)]

- should this spell disable target's ability to cast spells? It should imo, but perhaps developers chosed to not implement it to avoid issues with the AI. Would SCS and RR scripts be able to handle it?

 

It largely depends on the implementation. If you use opcode #38 "silence" or #60 "miscast magic" for disabling the spellcasting then RR's AI will be able to detect that and act accordingly.

 

OTOH, if you use opcode #145 "disable spell casting abilities" then RR's AI can't detect it and will likely behave inappropriately. I think the same applies to SCSII but you better check with David on that as well.

[Raj]

just because you worked at the wish spell, do you mind make limited wish option 'I want my party to be healed' remove the symbol of weakness disease icon? it already cure the effects but the icon stays

[Guest guest]

Hey Demivrgs, any ETA on v3? Just would like to know what kind of timescale to look out for, thanks.

[Demivrgvs]

- should this spell disable target's ability to cast spells? It should imo, but perhaps developers chosed to not implement it to avoid issues with the AI. Would SCS and RR scripts be able to handle it?

It largely depends on the implementation. If you use opcode #38 "silence" or #60 "miscast magic" for disabling the spellcasting then RR's AI will be able to detect that and act accordingly.

 

OTOH, if you use opcode #145 "disable spell casting abilities" then RR's AI can't detect it and will likely behave inappropriately. I think the same applies to SCSII but you better check with David on that as well.

I was thinking to simply use Miscast Magic (60). Would Silence (38) be appropriate? From a balancing point of view it would be less penalizing because a Vocalize spell would allow the victim to at least speak again and potentially Dispel the effects of Polymorth Other.

 

What would you prefer? If you think I should simply skip this PnP feature and let polymorphed victims cast spells let me know as I think SCS and RR's scripts take precedence over my changes/fixes.

 

just because you worked at the wish spell, do you mind make limited wish option 'I want my party to be healed' remove the symbol of weakness disease icon? it already cure the effects but the icon stays

Sure...spin734 doesn't remove any icon at all, I'll add poison, blindness and deafness icons too just to be sure.

 

Hey Demivrgs, any ETA on v3? Just would like to know what kind of timescale to look out for, thanks.

Things never go as planned but in theory one or two weeks should be more than enough unless something happens to slow down my work on it.

[aVENGER_(RR)]

What would you prefer?

 

Miscast magic should be fine, as long as you don't make it disable innate abilities as well.

 

Since silence also blocks dialogue I wouldn't recommend it as this can cause problems with plot critical characters which need to say some dialogue before dying (i.e. Bodhi in CH6). None of RR's characters do this though as I dislike that behavior.

[SixOfSpades]

I was thinking to simply use Miscast Magic (60). Would Silence (38) be appropriate?

I would use both Miscast Magic, so AIs can detect it, and Disable Spellcasting Abilities, in case the target is immune to Miscast Magic effects. By the way, your "creatures with more Hit Dice (especially relative to the caster) have bonuses to their Save" plan seems ideal. Or maybe the spell could be given a non-permanent duration, so that low-level casters can only keep Firkraag in squirrel form for just a couple of rounds.

 

If you think I should simply skip this PnP feature and let polymorphed victims cast spells let me know

If Polymorph Othered creatures can still cast spells, then Polymorph Selfed and Shapechanged must be allowed to as well. I don't think we want any Iron Golems casting Time Stop.

 

Miscast magic should be fine, as long as you don't make it disable innate abilities as well.

EEeeeehhhhh . . . . that depends on the ability. I suppose you'd still be able to enter a Berserker Rage, but can you really Poison Weapon if both your poison and your weapon have been absorbed into your fur? And I'm firmly of the "Polymorphed Dragons shouldn't be able to use their Wing Buffet / Breath Weapon" camp.

[Ardanis]

Miscast magic should be fine, as long as you don't make it disable innate abilities as well.

 

Since silence also blocks dialogue I wouldn't recommend it as this can cause problems with plot critical characters which need to say some dialogue before dying (i.e. Bodhi in CH6). None of RR's characters do this though as I dislike that behavior.

I second every word here.

 

I would use both Miscast Magic, so AIs can detect it, and Disable Spellcasting Abilities, in case the target is immune to Miscast Magic effects.

I'm not sure that's as good as you say. If a creature is immune to miscast then there's a pretty good chance it has a reason to be. And disabling it anyway isn't the best course of action imho.

[aVENGER_(RR)]

And I'm firmly of the "Polymorphed Dragons shouldn't be able to use their Wing Buffet / Breath Weapon" camp.

 

I'm in complete agreement with you here, but unfortunately, many innate abilities (including Wing Buffets) are scripted, so even disabling innate ability use wouldn't prevent them.

 

AFAIK, the only way to rectify that would be to use a script disabling opcode on the character (i.e. Feeblemind) but of course, that might cause other issues. As far as RR is concerned, my AI can deal with feebleminded characters.

[DavidW]

- should this spell disable target's ability to cast spells? It should imo, but perhaps developers chosed to not implement it to avoid issues with the AI. Would SCS and RR scripts be able to handle it?

 

It largely depends on the implementation. If you use opcode #38 "silence" or #60 "miscast magic" for disabling the spellcasting then RR's AI will be able to detect that and act accordingly.

 

OTOH, if you use opcode #145 "disable spell casting abilities" then RR's AI can't detect it and will likely behave inappropriately. I think the same applies to SCSII but you better check with David on that as well.

 

I think that's right for SCSII too.

 

Having said that, possibly it doesn't matter too much - as you point out, a polymorphed enemy is effectively out of the fight. If they fail to fight effectively and wander around mis-casting, so be it. (That brings back the question of balance, of course.)

[Salk]

What would you prefer? If you think I should simply skip this PnP feature and let polymorphed victims cast spells let me know as I think SCS and RR's scripts take precedence over my changes/fixes.

 

I am for the PnP feature.

[Demivrgvs]

Flame Arrow

It took my quite some time but I've finally made it work as it should have been from the beginning. It now effectively fire multiple arrows, and each arrow can potentially hit any opponent within 30 feet from the designed target. The first arrow will always hit the target specified when casting the spell, while the subsequent ones will hit a random target within range. If there's only one opponent all arrows will hit the the same victim. This spell is even more powerful than before, as it now works as a beefed up Magic Missile (hits 4 times, thus the chances that at least one arrow bypasses magic resistance is quite higher). I'd like to make it as per IWD/NWN if it doesn't goes against most of you:

- 4d6 arrows every 4 levels (up to 5 arrows) instead of 5d6 ones every 5 levels (up to 4 arrows). This allows a better/faster scalability, and makes it slightly more effective because of the added arrow.

- remove the piercing damage to slightly nerf it, as currently this spell is really too powerful imo. Acid Arrow doesn't deal piercing damage, and I think Flame Arrow should work in a similar way.

 

Polymorph Other

By the way, your "creatures with more Hit Dice (especially relative to the caster) have bonuses to their Save" plan seems ideal. Or maybe the spell could be given a non-permanent duration, so that low-level casters can only keep Firkraag in squirrel form for just a couple of rounds.

Actually I think I won't allow you to polymorph a dragon at all. The idea was to make it affect creatures with equal or less HD than the caster exactly to prevent a single 4th level spell from insta-killing creatures like liches and dragons.

 

I suppose you'd still be able to enter a Berserker Rage, but can you really Poison Weapon if both your poison and your weapon have been absorbed into your fur? And I'm firmly of the "Polymorphed Dragons shouldn't be able to use their Wing Buffet / Breath Weapon" camp.

I'm in complete agreement with you here, but unfortunately, many innate abilities (including Wing Buffets) are scripted, so even disabling innate ability use wouldn't prevent them.

 

AFAIK, the only way to rectify that would be to use a script disabling opcode on the character (i.e. Feeblemind) but of course, that might cause other issues. As far as RR is concerned, my AI can deal with feebleminded characters.

I'd go with a "simple" spell failure effect. It already is a noticeable improvement over vanilla's Polymorph Other, and we'll not risk to create undesiderable issues.