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[Ardanis]

Skeleton Warriors

Imo 90 MR is the one reason to use them.

As for their effectiveness against beholders, it's not as much of a slaughter but rather one-on-one fight. SCS beholders also use telekinesis alot, which is quite effective against SWs. And you can always unload a couple of Chaos spells, following slaughter will be much more sighty then with SWs.

 

If they go to 6th level, I absolutely wish them to keep 90 MR.

 

Reflected Image

3+1/4 = 8? 2+1/5=6?

[StrixO]

Reflected Image

Well, I'm clearly in the minority regarding this tweak. Maybe it's a difference in playstyle. I don't buff my party to the hilt, or use redundant buffs. And I don't think a level 1 spell needs to be able to compete with 5th and 6th level spells for utility. I think 'reflected image' would serve as a good emergency buff when all the useful, higher-level stuff runs out. If you insist on needing this buff to have enough of a duration for pre-buffing along with every other higher level buff, what's the point of playing? You know who is going to win.

 

Summons

I briefly looked through the summons and most seem nice. The only real double take I had was for the aforementioned shambling mound (how about a jackalope?), hp/resistances on the elementals, and the hp on the fiends/celestials.

 

That being said, I haven't played around with these summons much in-game, so I haven't given these tweaks a fair shake.

 

EDIT: Fearsome druidic summons:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/comm...g_jackalope.jpg

Edited August 21, 2010 by StrixO

[Demivrgvs]

Reflected Image

Well, I'm clearly in the minority regarding this tweak. Maybe it's a difference in playstyle. I don't buff my party to the hilt, or use redundant buffs. And I don't think a level 1 spell needs to be able to compete with 5th and 6th level spells for utility. I think 'reflected image' would serve as a good emergency buff when all the useful, higher-level stuff runs out. If you insist on needing this buff to have enough of a duration for pre-buffing along with every other higher level buff, what's the point of playing? You know who is going to win.

Are 10 rounds enough to consider it a bre-buffing spell? I generally consider pre-buff only long lasting spells (e.g. at least 2 turns if not 1 turn per lvl). A shorter duration may cause what David says imo, that you'll never use it, because you can't afford to lose 1 round every 4 on this spell.

 

Regarding RI being comparable with a 5th or 6th lvl spell: it's clearly not my intention, and I'm not sure it comes even close to that. We can try to compare it with the 4th lvl Stoneskin, but the latter is twice as much effective, lasts an entire day and is more difficult to tear down with spells (a simple Divination of 3rd lvl can get rid of RI).

 

 

Summons

I briefly looked through the summons and most seem nice. The only real double take I had was for the aforementioned shambling mound (how about a jackalope?), hp/resistances on the elementals, and the hp on the fiends/celestials.

I made Shamblers as per PnP (I forgot to put them in the on-line topic), thus other than reducing hp (from 146 to 106 if I'm not wrong) I don't see anything wrong about them. What's there you don't feel right?

 

That being said, I haven't played around with these summons much in-game, so I haven't given these tweaks a fair shake.

That's not fair.

[Jarno Mikkola]

Let's look like a donkey, again...

Reflected Image

Maybe it's a difference in playstyle. I don't buff my party to the hilt, or use redundant buffs.

Are 10 rounds enough to consider it a pre-buffing spell? ...

that you'll never use it, because you can't afford to lose 1 round every 4 on this spell.

Erhm, did you actually read the response you quoted ?

If the buff is an emergency response, it doesn't need to be casted every 4 rounds... but when you have 5 hit points and the next hit will definitely kill you...

[Demivrgvs]

Reflected Image

Let's look like a donkey, again...

Maybe it's a difference in playstyle. I don't buff my party to the hilt, or use redundant buffs.

Are 10 rounds enough to consider it a pre-buffing spell? ...

that you'll never use it, because you can't afford to lose 1 round every 4 on this spell.

Erhm, did you actually read the response you quoted ?

If the buff is an emergency response, it doesn't need to be casted every 4 rounds... but when you have 5 hit points and the next hit will definitely kill you...

I do read the response, but probably you didn't...unless this is only your usual annoying behaviour to simply create some havoc.

 

StrixO also said "if we insist on needing this buff to have enough of a duration for pre-buffing along with every other higher level buff" and I was responding to that.

 

Edit: and no, this is not a spell for emergencies imo, because 50% of times it won't save you. If you're bout to die and need a quick escape or protection you go for Mislead, Stoneskin, PfMW or similar spells which can really save your ass (100% chance) for a limited time.

Edited August 21, 2010 by Demivrgvs

[Jarno Mikkola]

Edit: and no, this is not a spell for emergencies imo, because 50% of times it won't save you. If you're bout to die and need a quick escape or protection you go for Mislead, Stoneskin, PfMW or similar spells which can really save your ass (100% chance) for a limited time.

Those are 7th and 6th level spells... the 1st level spell can do the the same 50% of the times. And that's a lot for the party, as it saves a 5&6 or a 7th level cleric spell, 50% of the times, in close combat when the mage needs just a few seconds more so the melee'ers can finish the monster...

[Demivrgvs]

Edit: and no, this is not a spell for emergencies imo, because 50% of times it won't save you. If you're bout to die and need a quick escape or protection you go for Mislead, Stoneskin, PfMW or similar spells which can really save your ass (100% chance) for a limited time.

Those are 7th and 6th level spells... the 1st level spell can do the the same 50% of the times. And that's a lot for the party, as it saves a 5&6 or a 7th level cleric spell, 50% of the times, in close combat when the mage needs just a few seconds more so the melee'ers can finish the monster...

If you insist...

 

I haven't mentioned a single 7th lvl spell there (two 6th and one 4th) and those were just examples. If you need a quick temporary way to avoid serious threats there are low lvl spells too in that "similar spells" list, like Invisibility (cast and run away) or Mirror Image (for the first hits you have 1/9 - 1/8 chance to not be hit, instead of 1/2).

 

I'm not saying RI sucks in those cases, but it's not where it shines. The main role of RI is to protect fighter-mages who often find themselves in melee, not to act as an "emergency escape" spell.

 

That being said, StixO may be right about reducing the duration, I'm simply not convinced enough.

[Constantine]

Edit: and no, this is not a spell for emergencies imo, because 50% of times it won't save you. If you're bout to die and need a quick escape or protection you go for Mislead, Stoneskin, PfMW or similar spells which can really save your ass (100% chance) for a limited time.

Those are 7th and 6th level spells... the 1st level spell can do the the same 50% of the times. And that's a lot for the party, as it saves a 5&6 or a 7th level cleric spell, 50% of the times, in close combat when the mage needs just a few seconds more so the melee'ers can finish the monster...

So what is it that you're suggesting anyway? That the low level spells should be useless compared to the high level ones or what? If 50% is too good for you, what percentage do you prefer? 20, 10%? Gimme a break, no one would use your "nerfed" low level spells ever.

[Shaitan]

take a breath.

[StrixO]

Reflected Image

Wow, people sure are sensitive about this. I think it's odd people would argue that a 1st level spell offering a virtual 50% resistance to all non-AoE damage (including magic missiles, flame arrows, and irregardless of a weapon's enchantment level, in case of melee), wouldn't be useful if it doesn't last up to 1 turn (at high levels).

 

How does this compare to armor of faith, a 1st level divine? That spell offers 20% resistance for 1 turn to only melee (and doesn't include elemental melee damage).

 

Anyway, I've nerfed mine locally. I'll try and let you know how it plays out (along with those summons, when I eventually get to them).

Edited August 21, 2010 by StrixO

[Demivrgvs]

Reflected Image

I think it's odd people would argue that a 1st level spell offering a virtual 50% resistance to all non-AoE damage (including magic missiles, flame arrows, and irregardless of a weapon's enchantment level, in case of melee), wouldn't be useful if it doesn't last up to 1 turn.

As I tried to say, I'm unsure myself. I do saw the huge potential of the spell and I made it start with a really short duration...I then added a small duration increase to keep it interesting for higher lvls because I thought 4 rounds was too little for a mage who already have to renew more important buffs and cast offensively at least half the time during a battle.

 

How does this compare to armor of faith, a 1st level divine? That spell offers 20% resistance for 1 turn to only melee (and doesn't include elemental melee damage).

You do have a point here. Even if AoF can be used together with other sources to reach a much higher effectiveness, RI is much more effective if cast by a high lvl caster.

 

Anyway, I've nerfed mine locally. I'll try and let you know how it plays out (along with those summons, when I eventually get to them).

Good, let me know then. If I had to nerf it I'd probably not be as drastic as 4 round though, 5-6 rounds should be enough. Edited August 21, 2010 by Demivrgvs

[Jarno Mikkola]

... And that's a lot for the party...

So what is it that you're suggesting anyway? That the low level spells should be useless compared to the high level ones or what? If 50% is too good for you, what percentage do you prefer? 20, 10%? Gimme a break, no one would use your "nerfed" low level spells ever.

No, complete the opposite, that even with 50%, it's good enough, but not really too much in most cases for a short period spell that the spell is suggested to be(up to ~24 real seconds) for a 1st level spell, when it's used right.

[DavidW]

Commenting from an enemy-AI perspective: anything that gets you half as many hits as you'd expect over any significant period is worth having, if you can find the time to cast it. (There's a delicate tradeoff in wizard scripting: how much time to spend renewing buffs, vs how much time to spend doing damage, and given the need to keep up Mirror Images, Stoneskins and Pro/Weapons spells, as well as anti-spell defences, there might not be room for another short-duration defence spells in wizard scripts.)

 

I don't think I'd be able to find the time to use RI in combat after about eighth level, at a guess, though it might be nice in a Minor Sequencer with Mirror Image.

 

Incidentally, if prebuffing immediately before a battle, even a seven or eight round duration is worthwhile. My impression is that most BG2 battles are over, or at least under control, by about five or six rounds in (exception: wizard fights, where you have to wait out defences).

[Kalindor]

I don't think I'd be able to find the time to use RI in combat after about eighth level, at a guess, though it might be nice in a Minor Sequencer with Mirror Image.

I don't think they're combinable, or does using a sequencer negate this check?

[Jarno Mikkola]

I don't think they're combinable, or does using a sequencer negate this check?

Yes. As you can use Protection from Magic Weapons and the Protection from normal Weapons & Mantle with them... you can combine any and all other spells with them too, same goes for the AI casted spells, but that's it's own subject...