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[Jarno Mikkola]

Not to mention that creatures without an actual "PC class" cannot be build Jarno's way at all, and at least half of vanilla's creatures hadn't a class assigned.

.tp2 code based partly on this...

COPY ~mymod/beholders/xycghtit.cre~ ~override~
WRITE_BYTE ~0x0272~ ~%BEHOLDER%~
WRITE_BYTE ~0x0273~ ~%BEHOLDER%~ // the internal name of your class, surrounded by %

What did you say, that they cannot be made ? As I just did.

 

A "nerfed" Planetar may have base thac0 7 (3/4 of 18HD) and 128 hit points (if we want summons' hit points to be more similar to AD&D progression instead of 3rd ed one).

Well, that would be, somewhat right... if you do it to the other summons too. Edited August 19, 2010 by Jarno Mikkola

[Ardanis]

Skeleton Warriors

You know what, I think I'm going to nerf mr to 50%, even if I'm pretty sure it will be unpopular.

That's okay, I'll just raise it back to 90% locally

But I recall you've mentioned to exclude the Warrior from 3rd spell compeltely and move it to 5th spell?

 

@Jarno:

1) Please, stop discussing coding techniques here already.

2) You do know what HitDice stands for? It's the amount of levels in Monster class. Planetars use Fighter/Cleric class for technical reasons, because the engine can't handle DnD mechanics.

[StrixO]

Another suggestion I've seen others make - I just wanted to second it: 'Reflected Image' is strong for a lst level spell. It's equivalent to 50% melee resistance for it's duration (except you get to keep every other stoneskin!). I'd cap it at ~4 rounds, for use in brief, close-quarters situations (like PfMW). At 4 rounds, I'd definitely still have the SR version in a spellbook for fighter-mages.

Edited August 20, 2010 by StrixO

[Dakk]

Skeleton Warriors

You know what, I think I'm going to nerf mr to 50%, even if I'm pretty sure it will be unpopular.

That's okay, I'll just raise it back to 90% locally

But I recall you've mentioned to exclude the Warrior from 3rd spell compeltely and move it to 5th spell?

Without consulting the Monster Manual I'm pretty sure the 2nd ed PnP Skellie Warrior have 90% MR - it would be a pretty substantial non-canon move reducing it to 50%... As I've come to trust your encyclopaedic knowledge of D&D Demi, I take it you know this but still thinks it's a good move (for game engine reasons?)?

 

I wouldn't mind moving the SW to a higher spell slot though.

[StrixO]

Without consulting the Monster Manual I'm pretty sure the 2nd ed PnP Skellie Warrior have 90% MR - it would be a pretty substantial non-canon move reducing it to 50%... As I've come to trust your encyclopaedic knowledge of D&D Demi, I take it you know this but still thinks it's a good move (for game engine reasons?)?

 

Any additional departure from PnP rules is kind of sad. That being said, the infinity engine doesn't have a DM's judiciousness in picking and choosing which spells a player will receive. While a DM can keep an eye on balance and modify the game world accordingly, the IE just dumps gold and scrolls all over the player.

 

A DM might think twice about giving a player Animate Dead or Mordenkainen's Sword to preserve PnP balance. The IE doesn't care.

Edited August 20, 2010 by StrixO

[Jarno Mikkola]

@Jarno:

1) Please, stop discussing coding techniques here already.

2) You do know what HitDice stands for? It's the amount of levels in Monster class. Planetars use Fighter/Cleric class for technical reasons, because the engine can't handle DnD mechanics.

1) Why, so I cannot prove that it can be done When I know it can.

2) I think I do...

Examples?

It might be OK if the monster Hit Dice would be capped like the Fighters were... in this case the Greater Earth Elemental(16 Hit Dice) would have been 8*9+6*9+2*7=140 Hit points(at most).

Technically the game doesn't have a Monster class, but yes, we can discuss it too.

Generally the "Monster Class" should use similar features as the normal classes, the XP table doesn't work, but that's OK because it doesn't really matter...

But the class should have same restrictions that the other classes have, now the general HD for example measured in in Hit Points, should be the d8 up to the cap of 9 or 10, meaning that the level 9 Monster has a maximum of 72 Hit Points. +Con bonus(this is probably not in the monsters, so you just have to wing it) +/- Racial specialties at set level(these aren't set in anyway, so you can also wing this, but take serious thinking before you go and change this on the + side, unless the monster is "Legendary"[which also means, no summons]) +2 Hit Points, per every level the monster exceeds the Hit Point cap.

And as the game is in my eyes generally well balanced when taking this all into account...

Edited August 20, 2010 by Jarno Mikkola

[Salk]

That being said, you have a point, and if most players want to slightly lower their hp using 2nd edition progression for HD higher than 9 I may agree, but don't try to say that a 16HD elemental can compete with a 20th lvl fighter, because even a 10th lvl fighter with decent equipment can beat a Greater Elemental within this game.

 

I am for using the 2nd edition progression for HD higher than 9, if not other for the fact that charname and NPCs use 2nd edition progression for HP gain.

Edited August 20, 2010 by Salk

[Demivrgvs]

Reflected Image

Another suggestion I've seen others make - I just wanted to second it: 'Reflected Image' is strong for a lst level spell. It's equivalent to 50% melee resistance for it's duration (except you get to keep every other stoneskin!). I'd cap it at ~4 rounds, for use in brief, close-quarters situations (like PfMW). At 4 rounds, I'd definitely still have the SR version in a spellbook for fighter-mages.

This is indeed a hard spell to balance. If most players agree such a short duration doesn't cripple its appeal I may be fine nerfing it. I thought that using a very slow progression (+1 round every 3 lvls) was enough to limit it, but I may be wrong, and I don't want it to overshine Mirror Image, I only want it to be a viable alternative instead of a useless Lesser MI.

 

 

Skeleton Warriors

Without consulting the Monster Manual I'm pretty sure the 2nd ed PnP Skellie Warrior have 90% MR - it would be a pretty substantial non-canon move reducing it to 50%... As I've come to trust your encyclopaedic knowledge of D&D Demi, I take it you know this but still thinks it's a good move (for game engine reasons?)?

Indeed I know this (it's not in a hidden manual but the base 2nd ed MM), and that's another reason I never nerfed them, but like aVENGER and David I also think that being 100% true to PnP isn't always the best choice. Furthermore, if you really want to be 100% true then you should also know that these creatures cannot be controlled without a circlet of power, that a caster wouldn't be able to control more than one SW at once, and that PnP Animate Dead spell doesn't allow to summon any powerful undead, only lesser skeletons and zombies.

 

I wouldn't mind moving the SW to a higher spell slot though.

Well, they would probably be fine as a 6th lvl summon (Create Undead), but their 90% mr could still be exploitable occasionally (e.g. a group of SW can wipe out a beholder's lair with ease except Elder Orbs).

 

I kinda like Animate Dead, Summon Shadows and Create Undead to be themed, summoning skeletons only, shadow-like undead and zombie-like undead respectively...but your suggestion is probably a valid alternative to nerfing SW.

[DavidW]

Skeleton Warriors

Without consulting the Monster Manual I'm pretty sure the 2nd ed PnP Skellie Warrior have 90% MR - it would be a pretty substantial non-canon move reducing it to 50%... As I've come to trust your encyclopaedic knowledge of D&D Demi, I take it you know this but still thinks it's a good move (for game engine reasons?)?

Indeed I know this (it's not in a hidden manual but the base 2nd ed MM), and that's another reason I never nerfed them, but like aVENGER and David I also think that being 100% true to PnP isn't always the best choice. Furthermore, if you really want to be 100% true then you should also know that these creatures cannot be controlled without a circlet of power, that a caster wouldn't be able to control more than one SW at once, and that PnP Animate Dead spell doesn't allow to summon any powerful undead, only lesser skeletons and zombies.

 

Just one thing to remember about skeleton warriors: they can be turned. I don't think the vanilla AI ever tries to turn undead, but SCS(II) does. That presumably reduces their attractiveness versus non-undead creatures with the same stats.

[Salk]

Reflected Image

Another suggestion I've seen others make - I just wanted to second it: 'Reflected Image' is strong for a lst level spell. It's equivalent to 50% melee resistance for it's duration (except you get to keep every other stoneskin!). I'd cap it at ~4 rounds, for use in brief, close-quarters situations (like PfMW). At 4 rounds, I'd definitely still have the SR version in a spellbook for fighter-mages.

This is indeed a hard spell to balance. If most players agree such a short duration doesn't cripple its appeal I may be fine nerfing it. I thought that using a very slow progression (+1 round every 3 lvls) was enough to limit it, but I may be wrong, and I don't want it to overshine Mirror Image, I only want it to be a viable alternative instead of a useless Lesser MI.

 

I'm not so convinced.

 

A duration capped at 4 rounds would make this spell lose much of its attractivity. The current slow progress keeps it interesting even for higher level mages. I'd keep it as it is.

[Dakk]

I'm inclined to agree with Salk.

[Demivrgvs]

Skeleton Warriors

Without consulting the Monster Manual I'm pretty sure the 2nd ed PnP Skellie Warrior have 90% MR - it would be a pretty substantial non-canon move reducing it to 50%... As I've come to trust your encyclopaedic knowledge of D&D Demi, I take it you know this but still thinks it's a good move (for game engine reasons?)?

Indeed I know this (it's not in a hidden manual but the base 2nd ed MM), and that's another reason I never nerfed them, but like aVENGER and David I also think that being 100% true to PnP isn't always the best choice. Furthermore, if you really want to be 100% true then you should also know that these creatures cannot be controlled without a circlet of power, that a caster wouldn't be able to control more than one SW at once, and that PnP Animate Dead spell doesn't allow to summon any powerful undead, only lesser skeletons and zombies.

Just one thing to remember about skeleton warriors: they can be turned. I don't think the vanilla AI ever tries to turn undead, but SCS(II) does. That presumably reduces their attractiveness versus non-undead creatures with the same stats.

Interesting notion, and great job as alwyas David...but that actually has little to do with the main cases where this 3rd lvl summon is really OP, like fighting beholders and mind flayers.

 

And just that you're following this, may I ask your opinon on this matter?

 

 

Reflected Image

Well, it seems there's not such consensus thus I'll take my time to decide if nerfing it is really necessary...though I'm almost sure I did some "calculation" back then to compare RI to MI.

[Shaitan]

I'm inclined to agree with Salk.

Second that

[DavidW]

And just that you're following this, may I ask your opinon on this matter?

 

 

Reflected Image

Well, it seems there's not such consensus thus I'll take my time to decide if nerfing it is really necessary...though I'm almost sure I did some "calculation" back then to compare RI to MI.

 

I'm not entirely clear what the new version does. But a 4 round duration probably makes it fairly useless at high level. A fighter/mage already needs to pause every 4th round to renew PMW or the like, not to mention stoneskin. They probably don't have time to keep a second protective spell up.

[Demivrgvs]

And just that you're following this, may I ask your opinon on this matter?

 

 

Reflected Image

Well, it seems there's not such consensus thus I'll take my time to decide if nerfing it is really necessary...though I'm almost sure I did some "calculation" back then to compare RI to MI.

 

I'm not entirely clear what the new version does. But a 4 round duration probably makes it fairly useless at high level. A fighter/mage already needs to pause every 4th round to renew PMW or the like, not to mention stoneskin. They probably don't have time to keep a second protective spell up.

Ehm...actually I was asking your opinion on the Skeleton Warrior matter.

 

Regarding Reflected Image, I made it work as a permanent single image, not affected/disrupted by damage. This means a permanent 50% miss chance, which more or less is a half strength Stoneskin. To balance such powerful effect the duration is very limited: 4 rounds +1/3 lvls up to 10 rounds for a 18th lvl caster.