Summoning Spells for V4

[Demivrgvs]

@Jarno, let's see what other players think on that matter. In the meanwhile I can only say that I'll try to revise all summons a little bit (e.g. those with more than 10HD will have less hp due to AD&D cap), but nothing major until I get more feedback.

 

Regarding the last two Monster Summoning spells, I have prepared Umber Hulks and Salamanders for MSVIII and IX respectively, but now I'm tempted to use Basilisks as well (they were supposed to considering there's a filename for then and an entry on an appropriate 2da).

 

@Beta testers:

- did anyone tried out V4 MS and AS spells? I'm curious in particular of the new summons such as gibberlings, oozes, and the supposedly powerful otyughs (kreso mentioned their size as a con in certain areas for example).

- is Mordenkainen's Sword new "weakness" (95% physical res instead of immunity) working as intended? The intention was to give non-mages a small chance to counter it (especially for the poor AI) but atthe same time I'd like it to remain as tanky as possible.

- do you feel elementals, fiends, and/or celestials are OP? No need to mention the Aerial Servant, that is indeed OP.

- is there an objectively weak or very unappealing summon?

[Salk]

I am sorry I cannot provide feedback for the higher level summoning spells but I am very satisfied with MS I to III.

 

I am with Jarno about the excessively high HP of some specific creatures. I understand and approve of adhering to PnP whenever that is possible without compromising the gameplay but in this case it's best to avoid turning creatures into demigods, considering we are not talking of unique challenges either.

 

I hope you will be able to push out a new release of SR v4 and that you will remember to update the Identify spell description as well.

 

One last thing: I am not so thrilled by Obscuring Mist: simply because of realism issues. I cannot understand how it's possible that the mist would cause targeting penalties for those inside it but not the same malus to those trying to target them. I also have a hard time accepting the fact that it's party friendly. Unless I misunderstood how it works, of course...

[Demivrgvs]

I am sorry I cannot provide feedback for the higher level summoning spells but I am very satisfied with MS I to III.

Well, that's a start.

 

I am with Jarno about the excessively high HP of some specific creatures.

I already said Jarno is right when it comes to reducing hit points of powerful summons (I admit I followed 3E PnP too much for V2 and V3).

 

I hope you will be able to push out a new release of SR v4 and that you will remember to update the Identify spell description as well.

You should never trust my etas, but I'm still trying to package a new build for tonight. Your tweaked Identify description is already there.

 

I cannot understand how it's possible that OBSCURING MIST would cause targeting penalties for those inside it but not the same malus to those trying to target them. I also have a hard time accepting the fact that it's party friendly.

I think the mist was party friendly only a few builds ago, or at least it isn't on my current one. I've also changed its mechanic a little bit for the new build, it now gives everyone inside the fog a +4 AC bonus vs missiles (thus even those outside the cloud will have a hard time using ranged weapons against those inside).

[subtledoctor]

So, is the point of Obscuring Mist that it impairs all ranged combat and makes melee better? I'm trying to figure out a reason to cast it... is it basically designed for use against skeleton archers and bandits?

 

I've been using AS I-III and MS I-III as well (my IWDEE all-bards party just hit level 7) and they are great. One possible issue: I conjured some Green Slimes to use against Bombardier Beetles... the beetles have a small AoE acid explosion attack and it kills the Slimes... given that the Slines are acidic and do acid damage themselves (I think), shouldn't they have some acid damage resistance? Like 40-50%?

 

As for high-level summons: 198 HP seems like way too much. I think Jarno is wrong about the calculation - player characters get 9 hit dice and then get fixed hp per level, but 'monsters' just get hit dice. So an 18 HD planetary should get (I think) 18d8 hp. Still, 18d8 is 144 at the MAX. So I think something like 120-145 would be appropriate.

 

Personally I'm all for nerfing planetars a bit, I think they are super cheesy. (I also think they are inappropriate for a wizard summon, but we've already discussed that elsewhere.)

 

And Pit Fiends should indeed be more powerful, roughly as powerful as a planetar. Actually, since you've eliminated a demonic summoning spell and some of us don't like to see it go, here's a proposed solution: take the old 7th-level fiend summons and move it to 8th level, adjusting the power of the summon as needed. Then move the old 8th level fiend summons to 9th level, again adjusting as needed. Finally, move Gate to HLA land, and give pit fiends planetar-level power.

[Jarno Mikkola]

As for high-level summons: 198 HP seems like way too much. I think Jarno is wrong about the calculation - player characters get 9 hit dice and then get fixed hp per level, but 'monsters' just get hit dice. So an 18 HD planetary should get (I think) 18d8 hp. Still, 18d8 is 144 at the MAX. So I think something like 120-145 would be appropriate.

The argument I place in this is that the monster is a class that has the same base as a cleric (without the divine powers), as that's the in between of the hit dice the player gets. Be is mages 1d4, rogues 1d6, cleric/druid/monk 1d8, and warrior 1d10. Yeah technically there's also barbarian 1d12, but that only enforces the middle point of 1d8.

Now remember the cleric and druid and monk classes that have that 1d8 don't get the dice 8 after the level 10, instead they get 2 hit point per level, and having 198 hitpoints... you'll be dreaming about that until you are at level 64, Like I already said.

Now having the 144 hit points for the monster equals to be a level 42 th level monster based on the above. So the caster is about 3 times less powerful than his summon. Unfair just a tiny bit ?

And in case you need to check, the constitution bonus HPs are not counted in the base HP amounts. So you can't argue about that either. In my honest opinion if we have a planetar whose HD level is 18, then he should have 96 hitpoints, the 8d10+8*2, if we have 25th level planetar, we get the vanilla BG2 planetar with 110 hit points(aka 8d10+15*2).

Check out the vanilla game, the things actually make a darn good sense in it.

 

Of course this is just based on my opinion, so anything you decide is all up to you.

[subtledoctor]

I understand what you're arguing; I'm

just saying, that's not how the 2E AD&D rules work. A 20th level fighter only has 9 hit dice. All players are limited to 9 or 10 hit dice, and then get some hit points beyond that. But you're always a "9 hit dice creature."

 

Whereas, the monster manual entry for the planetar specifically says it has 18 hit dice. So that means 18d8 hit points. That means 81 hit points on average, but given that most players use "max hp per level" rules, or just reload for good rolls, I think it's reasonable to set the summons hit points near the high end of that range. Thus, I suggest something in the 120-140 area.

 

Hit points aside, they ought to be toned down. Or, actually, given their PnP status as practically demi-gods, they should just be excluded from the game. Better would be to have "Summon Deva" bring a Movanic Deva ("messengers to the Prime Material Plane"), wielding a Flametongue sword, and have the other celestial summons be an Astral Deva, wielding a Mace of Disruption.

 

Bonus: the description of the Astral Deva is pretty close to the in-game Planetar animation. Extra bonus: as "messengers to the lower planes," it's more likely that Astral Devas might become corrupted and Fallen, so letting evil characters summon them makes tons more sense than the invented-from-whole-cloth "Dark Planetar."

 

To be clear what I'm suggesting, as a technical matter: just a name change. Then balance it however you want.

 

EDIT - more info here:

http://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?536775-Let-s-Read-Planescape-Monstrous-Compendium-I-III&p=12806949#post12806949

[Fiann of the Silver Hand]

Or, actually, given their PnP status as practically demi-gods, they should just be excluded from the game.

 

Bioware put in as many ultra-uber-super-mega creatures as possible. Dragons galore in SoA, Demogorgon in ToB. To be fair, the Forgotten Realms pretty much encourages munchkin play.

[Salk]

Bioware put in as many ultra-uber-super-mega creatures as possible.

And that was a mistake.

 

It's when the game started to go out of hand, especially in Throne of Bhaal, where exceptional creatures became ordinary.

 

...but given that most players use "max hp per level" rules, or just reload for good rolls, I think it's reasonable to set the summons hit points near the high end of that range.

This argument is not really fair in my opinion. What should be considered is what level the player usually play the game at: Normal (or easier) or Core (or harder)? I do believe most people play at Core (or harder) and in that case there is no maximum hit points at level up. The fact that a mod component allows for it no matter the difficulty level chosen can harly dictate the guidelines for a balanced game.

 

I understand IR and SR are also planned with SCS in mind but dependency on other modifications should never be a priority in the development, at least in my opinion.

[Jarno Mikkola]

 

...but given that most players use "max hp per level" rules, or just reload for good rolls, I think it's reasonable to set the summons hit points near the high end of that range.

This argument is not really fair in my opinion. What should be considered is what level the player usually play the game at: Normal (or easier) or Core (or harder) ?

 

Well, here's a retort of sorts, this actually doesn't matter one hell of a bit, see the fact is, we have the SCS, 'we' can use it to max out the HPs of the creatures, if the player wants, but we can't diminish their HPs as easily with using it cause it only work one way, upwards.

And how many creatures does it not matter a bit if their HPs are set to max via the SCS... yeah, most of them. Because of internal reasons, such as they already have way too many, but also because DavidW didn't want to be unreasonable and get Sarevok killed etc.

[Kalindor]

@Beta testers:

- did anyone tried out V4 MS and AS spells? I'm curious in particular of the new summons such as gibberlings, oozes, and the supposedly powerful otyughs (kreso mentioned their size as a con in certain areas for example).

- is Mordenkainen's Sword new "weakness" (95% physical res instead of immunity) working as intended? The intention was to give non-mages a small chance to counter it (especially for the poor AI) but atthe same time I'd like it to remain as tanky as possible.

- do you feel elementals, fiends, and/or celestials are OP? No need to mention the Aerial Servant, that is indeed OP.

- is there an objectively weak or very unappealing summon?

 

My friend and I have been playing a multiplayer run-through with the latest versions of the Revisions mods. We have several casters that use different types of summons. However, we have not extensively used MS spells below level 5 due to party composition during BG1. We are playing with no summoning cap. Here are some of our impressions:

 

Devas and Planetars are very powerful. We are playing with a mod that converts them to once-per-day abilities rather than memorizable spells, however, and this does reduce the craziness to a somewhat reasonable degree. They still perform better than any of the other summons we have used, except perhaps the elemental princes. They lay waste to all manner of foes with very little that can compete. We are currently in the final areas of SoA, so maybe they will be more evenly matched with the enemies in ToB? We are not using fiends, so I cannot offer a comparison of power with the Devas and Planetars.

 

Mordenkainen's Sword is still functionally immune to physical attacks. My friend and I do not have it, but my dual wielding Wizard Slayer generally only gets the added elemental damage from his weapon applied to enemy swords. It is usually better to kite them around until they are unsummoned as opposed to trying to fence with them. Their offensive output is decent but not incredible, so they can safely be ignored by most high-level fighter types in my experience. Priests and rogues have a tougher time and usually must flee or use Sanctuary or the like.

 

Elemental summoning spells are solid in general. In Watcher's Keep (SCS and BP-Ascension installed, no other tactics mods) we are able to tank just about all of the physical attackers with 1-3 elemental summons. IMO, they eclipse the animal summoning spells of similar level. I suppose you could use Polar Bears with Ice Storm, but skeletons seem better for this (see below). The earth elemental is my favorite as my friend and I use it along with MS VI (Wyverns) to surround enemies and then Earthquake them into oblivion as these summons are immune to Earthquake.

 

By far the most useful summoning spell in our hands has been Animate Dead (and later Animate Skeleton Warrior). Skeletons are arguably too useful for the following reasons:

-- 8 hour duration

-- Immune to mind flayer brain eating

-- Immune to beholder rays

-- Immune to level drain

-- Animate Dead scales favorably in power with caster level.

-- Immune to cold (wall enemies off and ice storm them to death -- early game version of Earthquake strategy mentioned above).

 

Keep in mind that we are not using a summoning cap, which changes the calculus. Under these conditions, and army of skeletons guided by an invisible caster can storm groups of vampires, mind flayers, and beholders and trivialize the encounters when these are usually some of the most difficult battles in the game. Without our skeletons, mind flayers and beholders at least would be much scarier fights indeed. Very occasionally there is an enemy that can turn or control the skeletons, but this happens quite infrequently.

[Jarno Mikkola]

My friend and I have been playing a multiplayer run-through with the latest versions of the Revisions mods.

Is this with 2 player characters without any other party members ?

[Kalindor]

 

My friend and I have been playing a multiplayer run-through with the latest versions of the Revisions mods.

Is this with 2 player characters without any other party members ?

 

 

Actually we are using four player-generated characters (two each) and two NPC's (one each). The exact Bioware/Beamdog NPC's we use varies as we go through the game. Right now the party is:

Wizard Slayer (Bhaalspawn)

Shapeshifter Druid

Dragon Disciple

Cleric/Thief

Dorn Il-khan

Aerie

[DreamSlaveOne]

In my latest playthrough Devas & Planetars were overpowered against player only in SoA. Later in game I was perfectly fine with them with one exception - Un/Holy Word. I didn't summon them against AI, so I have no experience and feedback about that.

 

There's one point that we should really discuss regarding summoning creatures balance. Who is the target audience of SR? As an constant user of SCS + SR + IR on Core settings I have perfect difficulty for me. I'm sure there will be many different opinions, so please share your playtest feedback here, so Demi can find some middle ground for most players. Or he can make more powerful summons as component, but that's not optimal imho.

[Jarno Mikkola]

I didn't summon them against AI, so I have no experience and feedback about that.

So you can't actually say with definition that what you had were the Deva's and Planetars from the SR, as the AI was casting them, not you, look up the old bone golem thread or what ever it was. Yes, the AI can cast "imps" and you get rabbit that have the Planetar stats.

Weidu.log please.

 

Who is the target audience of SR? As an constant user of SCS + SR + IR ...

Shouldn't this be obvious ?

It should be everyone, not just some tactical genius, nor n00b at it, but also everything in the middle. Which is why the SR should not raise the summon spells to the OP level to the stars like it does now, with way too many expendable hit points.

-the same old rant about this stuff, let's spare Demi from the reading of it, we are both tired of it, cause I won... - bad joke's aside, we need more feedback yes.

Specially from users that have Edwin in their party. -I still wish he couldn't cast fireballs(aka invocation spells), like he wasn't able in BG1.

[DreamSlaveOne]

Sure, here you go:

 

 

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// The top of the file is the 'oldest' mod

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~ALTERNATIVES/SETUP-ALTERNATIVES.TP2~ #0 #0 // Alternatives: v11

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~ARESTORATIONP/SETUP-ARESTORATIONP.TP2~ #1 #11 // Restored Final Slayer Dream: v8.2.5

~ARESTORATIONP/SETUP-ARESTORATIONP.TP2~ #1 #12 // Alternate Slayer Change: v8.2.5

~ARESTORATIONP/SETUP-ARESTORATIONP.TP2~ #1 #13 // Restored Waukeen's Promenade Cutscene: v8.2.5

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~SETUP-REFINEMENTS.TP2~ #0 #20 // "SwashImoen" -> "SwashImoen", full revision (suggested): Refinements v 3.31

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~BG2_TWEAKS/SETUP-BG2_TWEAKS.TP2~ #0 #1220 // Allow Cromwell to Upgrade Watcher's Keep Items: v16

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~BG2_TWEAKS/SETUP-BG2_TWEAKS.TP2~ #0 #2060 // Weapon Styles for All: v16

~BG2_TWEAKS/SETUP-BG2_TWEAKS.TP2~ #0 #2150 // Wear Multiple Protection Items -> P&P Restrictions: v16

~BG2_TWEAKS/SETUP-BG2_TWEAKS.TP2~ #0 #2352 // Alter Multiclass Restrictions -> Install both of the above options: v16

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~BG2_TWEAKS/SETUP-BG2_TWEAKS.TP2~ #0 #3040 // Make Bags of Holding Bottomless: v16

~BG2_TWEAKS/SETUP-BG2_TWEAKS.TP2~ #0 #3080 // Unlimited Ammo Stacking: v16

~BG2_TWEAKS/SETUP-BG2_TWEAKS.TP2~ #0 #3125 // Neutral Characters Make Happy Comments at Mid-Range Reputation: v16

~BG2_TWEAKS/SETUP-BG2_TWEAKS.TP2~ #0 #3200 // Sellable Items (Icelus): v16

~ITEM_REV/ITEM_REV.TP2~ #0 #0 // Item Revisions by Demivrgvs: V4 Beta 7

~ITEM_REV/ITEM_REV.TP2~ #0 #1030 // Store Revisions: V4 Beta 7

~ITEM_REV/ITEM_REV.TP2~ #0 #1040 // Revised Armor -> With Movement Speed Penalties: V4 Beta 7

~ITEM_REV/ITEM_REV.TP2~ #0 #2 // Allow Spellcasting in Armor -> With a Chance of Arcane Casting Failure: V4 Beta 7

~ITEM_REV/ITEM_REV.TP2~ #0 #9 // Allow Thieving Skills in Armor -> Stealth is Penalized by Armor: V4 Beta 7

~ITEM_REV/ITEM_REV.TP2~ #0 #10 // Revised Shield Bonuses: V4 Beta 7

~ITEM_REV/ITEM_REV.TP2~ #0 #1080 // Enchantment Doesn't Affect Speed Factor of Weapons: V4 Beta 7

~ITEM_REV/ITEM_REV.TP2~ #0 #11 // Dual Wielding Changes for Light and Heavy Weapons: V4 Beta 7

~ITEM_REV/ITEM_REV.TP2~ #0 #18 // Revised Backstabbing -> Thief-only Weapons: V4 Beta 7

~ITEM_REV/ITEM_REV.TP2~ #0 #1200 // Revised Critical Hit Aversion: V4 Beta 7

~ITEM_REV/ITEM_REV.TP2~ #0 #12 // Items of Protection Can Be Worn with Magical Armor: V4 Beta 7

~ITEM_REV/ITEM_REV.TP2~ #0 #1091 // Remove Weapon Restrictions from Multi-classed Divine Spellcasters -> Clerics and Druids: V4 Beta 7

~ITEM_REV/ITEM_REV.TP2~ #0 #16 // PnP Equipment for Druids -> Druids and Fighter/Druids: V4 Beta 7

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~ITEM_REV/ITEM_REV.TP2~ #0 #1070 // Thieves Can Use Wands: V4 Beta 7

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~STRATAGEMS/SETUP-STRATAGEMS.TP2~ #0 #4040 // Make party members less likely to die irreversibly: v30

~STRATAGEMS/SETUP-STRATAGEMS.TP2~ #0 #4050 // Decrease the rate at which reputation improves -> Reputation increases at about 2/3 the normal rate: v30

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~STRATAGEMS/SETUP-STRATAGEMS.TP2~ #0 #6010 // Better calls for help: v30

~STRATAGEMS/SETUP-STRATAGEMS.TP2~ #0 #6024 // Add high-level abilities (HLAs) to spellcasters -> All eligible spellcasters in Throne of Bhaal and Shadows of Amn get HLAs (very challenging and not really recommended!): v30

~STRATAGEMS/SETUP-STRATAGEMS.TP2~ #0 #6031 // Smarter Mages -> Mages only cast short-duration spells instantly at start of combat if they are created in sight of the PC: v30

~STRATAGEMS/SETUP-STRATAGEMS.TP2~ #0 #6041 // Smarter Priests -> Priests only cast short-duration spells instantly at start of combat if they are created in sight of the PC: v30

~STRATAGEMS/SETUP-STRATAGEMS.TP2~ #0 #6101 // Potions for NPCs -> One third of the potions dropped by slain enemies break and are lost: v30

~STRATAGEMS/SETUP-STRATAGEMS.TP2~ #0 #6200 // Improved Spiders: v30

~STRATAGEMS/SETUP-STRATAGEMS.TP2~ #0 #6500 // Improved golems: v30

~STRATAGEMS/SETUP-STRATAGEMS.TP2~ #0 #6510 // Improved fiends -> Fiends have about 50 percent more hit points than normal: v30

~STRATAGEMS/SETUP-STRATAGEMS.TP2~ #0 #6520 // Smarter genies -> Genies have about 50 percent more hit points than normal: v30

~STRATAGEMS/SETUP-STRATAGEMS.TP2~ #0 #6530 // Smarter celestials -> Celestials have about 50 percent more hit points than normal: v30

~STRATAGEMS/SETUP-STRATAGEMS.TP2~ #0 #6540 // Smarter dragons -> Dragons have a substantial hit point increase: v30

~STRATAGEMS/SETUP-STRATAGEMS.TP2~ #0 #6551 // Smarter beholders -> Don't give beholder rays any chance of burning through spell protections; beholder antimagic blocks all spells, including harmful ones, for a round (simulates D&D rules): v30

~STRATAGEMS/SETUP-STRATAGEMS.TP2~ #0 #6563 // Smarter mind flayers -> Illithids have enhanced damage resistance; Illithids cannot see invisible enemies: v30

~STRATAGEMS/SETUP-STRATAGEMS.TP2~ #0 #6570 // Smarter githyanki: v30

~STRATAGEMS/SETUP-STRATAGEMS.TP2~ #0 #6580 // Improved Vampires: v30

~STRATAGEMS/SETUP-STRATAGEMS.TP2~ #0 #6590 // Smarter Throne of Bhaal final villain: v30

~STRATAGEMS/SETUP-STRATAGEMS.TP2~ #0 #8000 // Make the starting dungeon slightly harder: v30

~STRATAGEMS/SETUP-STRATAGEMS.TP2~ #0 #8010 // Improved Shade Lord: v30

~STRATAGEMS/SETUP-STRATAGEMS.TP2~ #0 #8020 // Spellcasting Demiliches: v30

~STRATAGEMS/SETUP-STRATAGEMS.TP2~ #0 #8043 // Increase difficulty of level-dependent monster groupings -> Maximum difficulty: v30

~STRATAGEMS/SETUP-STRATAGEMS.TP2~ #0 #8050 // Improved Random Encounters: v30

~STRATAGEMS/SETUP-STRATAGEMS.TP2~ #0 #8060 // Improved de'Arnise Keep ("Tactics Remix") -> Spirit trolls have the same powers as in the original game: v30

~STRATAGEMS/SETUP-STRATAGEMS.TP2~ #0 #8070 // Improved Unseeing Eye: v30

~STRATAGEMS/SETUP-STRATAGEMS.TP2~ #0 #8080 // Improved Bodhi (Tactics Remix) -> "Toned-down" version of the original Tactics Improved Bodhi, with SCSII scripting: v30

~STRATAGEMS/SETUP-STRATAGEMS.TP2~ #0 #8090 // Party's items are taken from them in Spellhold: v30

~STRATAGEMS/SETUP-STRATAGEMS.TP2~ #0 #8100 // Improved battle with Irenicus in Spellhold: v30

~STRATAGEMS/SETUP-STRATAGEMS.TP2~ #0 #8110 // Improved Sahuagin: v30

~STRATAGEMS/SETUP-STRATAGEMS.TP2~ #0 #8120 // Improved Beholder hive (adapted from Quest Pack): v30

~STRATAGEMS/SETUP-STRATAGEMS.TP2~ #0 #8140 // Slightly Improved Drow -> Upgrade Ust Natha's defences: v30

~STRATAGEMS/SETUP-STRATAGEMS.TP2~ #0 #8150 // Slightly Improved Watcher's Keep: v30

~STRATAGEMS/SETUP-STRATAGEMS.TP2~ #0 #8160 // Improved Fire Giant temple: v30

~STRATAGEMS/SETUP-STRATAGEMS.TP2~ #0 #8170 // Enhanced Sendai's Enclave: v30

~STRATAGEMS/SETUP-STRATAGEMS.TP2~ #0 #8180 // Improved Abazigal's Lair: v30

~STRATAGEMS/SETUP-STRATAGEMS.TP2~ #0 #8190 // Improved Minor Encounters: v30

Just a few minutes ago Demilich in WK summoned two beauties on me. Ctrl-Q-ed to doublecheck: 198 HP, 3 Attacks, Resistances, etc.

P.S. Tested single Planetar vs illitids and githyanki. Oh boy, what a massacre... Jarno, I'm starting to see your point.