Summoning Spells for V4

[subtledoctor]

And if AI druids would learn to cast it vs PC rogues, it'll be awesome.

Heck, why just druids? Isn't that why people keep guard dogs? Isn't that why we use them for hunting? *All* dogs and wolves should have invisibility purge. But then I guess that's more of an SCS-type change... quick, someone tell DavidW we have more work for him!

[n-ghost]

By the way, Demi, that's a huge hint for you on how to make, say, KR wolf form still useful for higher levels

[Demivrgvs]

Let's discuss this matter a bit before brandimemph writes me 5 more PMs and 10 more posts about it.

 

Monster Summoning spells

I tried to expand my re-search a bit and compared to my old suggested table there's a few new entries.

 

MSI

I still think nothing can beat 1HD Gibberlings here. It's also a deserved homage to these forums.

 

MSII

I'm still not convinced about using demihuman or humanoid within these spells, that's why I tried to search for a possible alternative to my suggested 2HD Kobold Commandos with maybe a Shaman/Witch leader.

 

That alternative is using 2HD Green Slimes (and eventually the 3HD Gray Ooze at higher lvls). This would also provide a natural combo with Stinking Cloud.

 

MSIII

I know many players love what I did with Hobgoblin Elite and their Shaman leader but then again, Charm Person works against them...doesn't it mean they cannot belong to MS spells?

 

The alternative is rather interesting imo, but needs to be tested for balance reaons. I think I already suggested them ages ago. 3HD Carrion Crawlers.

 

MSIV

Here it's simple imo. While I liked my work with the other two vanilla MS spells, Gnolls were kinda meh imo.

 

I'd simply merge MSIV and Spider Spawn (preserving the latter). The 4HD Giant Spiders are kinda good and unique because of their poison and web combo. I also suggest to get rid of the Phase Spider because properly scripting its teleporting ability is an almost impossible task imo but we could still use the Sword Spider upgrade (albeit in theory these spiders should not have a poison attack, which is a let down imo).

 

MSV

From here it starts to be harder to decide imo. I think many likes the current 2x Ogre Berserkers with the Ogre Mage leader (who wouldn't? ) but as above, do they really fit?

 

Back then I proposed 5HD Ettercap (meh, just weak cannon fodder without their PnP "traps"), Wolfweres (at least decent "tanks") and Myconids (kinda unique, but I don't know if they fit and are a nightmare to script). The only new addition I discovered now is a creature which goes from 4HD to 7HD within PnP (it's always 7HD within BG, but performs more like a less powerful one imo), I'm speaking of Hell Hounds.

 

MSVI

Here I'd simply renaming Wyvern Call into MSVI and use 6HD Baby Wyverns, and eventually a 7HD Wyvern as "leader" or upgrade, unless we think it's best to use 7HD Wyverns for MSVII and we can find decent replacements for this spell.

 

I couldn't find much though and while it would be cool to use such an underused creature animation I don't think 6HD Minotaurs can offer the same appeal of a big flying creature with a poison attack too.

 

MSVII

See above about using the Wyverns here. I do think at least one spell among MSVI-VIII should use the 6-8HD Otyugh. It's a nasty creature with hold/grapple potential and offer a very underused disease threat.

 

MSVIII

Balance here is hard to reach imo. We may try a bunch of 8HD Umber Hulks and see how they perform.

 

MSIX

Balance here is simply impossible. Jokes aside, nothing can compete with Gate obviously but this is a fully-controllable conjuration. I couldn't find suitable 9HD creatures, but as I said back then 8HD Fire Salamanders could work well (the combo with Incendiary Cloud could be devastating) unless we think it would be better to use them for MSVIII. A 12HD Noble Salamander could be the eventual leader or upgrade. What do you think?

 

I considered golems too here, but they do not fit the monster category imo, and it's probably best to leave them for KR HLAs.

[bradinmemph]

lol too late already had sent another:P

 

big thumbs up for hobgoblin and ogre with magi.. refer you to brothers grim and the apriopriate norse/germainc or oriental mythos as to them being monsters personally yes monsterous humanoids.. especially the orge with the OM leader/upgrade

 

 

 

as for ms8 salamanders could be okay.. i do like golem..

 

just wish there was another option than fire users.. fire being such a common the most common destructive element by time your casting ms9 it would be nice to have something a bit different??

though i get the point about using them as hla mage /clr creations ...

[Jarno Mikkola]

MSI

I still think nothing can beat 1HD Gibberlings here. It's also a deserved homage to these forums.

And at level 50, yes only at level 50, there will be 3 of them summoned, CamDawg, theacefes and Mike1072, when they see no enemies, they'll start chatting about making mods to the game known as Real Life.

 

Carrion Crawlers... hmm, I think these deserve a bonus if they see anyone die when they are present during the death, so their script should have a bonus to AC or something... or they should have the borrow ability aka teleport to a place, so they get to engage in melee and not get shot from range. The hobgoblins were excellent at range attack, which made them very OP, but this borrow shouldn't be... so long as we make sure the liches are immune to the Crawler hold, they are right ?

[F-man]

My opinions:

 

MSI: Gibberlings.

MSII: Kobolds aren't really mosters, so Slimes.

MSIII: Again Hobgoblins aren't really mosters, so Carrion Crawlers.

MSIV: Spiders.

MSV: Ogres are monsters so Ogres.

MSVI: Wyverns.

MSVII: Otyugh.

MSVIII: Umber Hulks.

MSIX: Salamander combo sounds good, so Salamanders.

[subtledoctor]

Love, love gibberlings. Definitely for level 1.

 

Kobolds are fine for level 2.

 

I vote for carrion crawlers at level 3. They're a proper monster, and have unique attack/properties, unlike hobgoblins which are basically Hairy Dudes With Swords.

 

I vote for the ogres at level 5. Wolfweres are too close to just summoning Cernd (you could just yell "hey, Cernd!") Hell hounds are a cool idea and underused in the games... but they are infernal, they would belong better in a "demonic line" of extra-planar summoning spells - I know you don't care much about that, but every single other monster mentioned here is from the Prime Material, so hell hounds would stick out.

 

Love the otyugh, and love umber hulks. So great for the player to have a chance to use them.

 

As for level 9... Is it even necessary? I think it's perfectly reasonable to say "now you're powerful enough that you don't need to summon monsters you can find in your backyard; at 17th level you can move on to more powerful summoning magic, plucking powerful beings from other planes of existence."

 

Incidentally, it's worth stepping back and looking at the big picture here. There is now a "line" of Prime Material summoning spells; and there is a "line" of necromantic conjurations (with gaps, but that's okay, there can be gaps). To really round out spell books I'd really like to see two more such organized "lines" of spells:

 

1) Extra-planar summons. This is inherently more powerful so you don't need low-level spells. I think it's possible to simply alter the power levels of what's already there and flatten things out. Maybe:

- imp/quasit at level 4

- hell hounds at level 5

- elemental at level 6

- djinni/efreet at level 7

- greater elemental and/or cornugon/nabassu at level 8

- glabrezu etc. at level 9

- pit fiend/balor as HLA (kill the dark planetar! kill it! /beavis voice) If your mod assumes SCS (and/or aTweaks) then I think it's reasonable to move the pit fiend above 9th level.

 

2) Golems! It's so frustrating that the stupid golem book is the only way PC wizards can utilize golems! Further, just as it's a good idea to create some non-Conjuration summons in the Necromancy school, we could do the same thing for Transmuters! They should be very short-duration and start at high-ish levels - it takes a lot of magic energy to animate such material without weeks of preparation. Maybe:

 

- flesh golem at 5th level

- sand golem at 6th level

- clay golem at 7th level

- stone golem at 8th level

- iron golem at 9th level

 

I think you know my opinion on Mord's Sword not being a summoned monster at all, but an actual sword (whether created or not, it's different) that is enchanted and controlled, so it should be in Alteration or (my pick) Enchantment/Charm.

 

My 2¢

[Shaitan]

My opinions:

 

MSI: Gibberlings.

MSII: Kobolds aren't really mosters, so Slimes.

MSIII: Again Hobgoblins aren't really mosters, so Carrion Crawlers.

MSIV: Spiders.

MSV: Ogres are monsters so Ogres.

MSVI: Wyverns.

MSVII: Otyugh.

MSVIII: Umber Hulks.

MSIX: Salamander combo sounds good, so Salamanders.

I fully agree

[bradinmemph]

removed..

[Demivrgvs]

Thanks guys for the feedback.

 

@bradin, no offense but your last post is impossible to read. Re-organize the quotes.

 

Summon Fiend spells

Let's just say something like this would be really low on my priority list considering all the things I need to do for IR, SR and KR. Anyway, Conjurers already have plenty of stuff at every level imo and it starts to loose its uniqueness if you put powerful uncontrollable fiends everywhere, not to mention that balancing them is even harder than balancing normal summons, which is already a hard task.

 

Summon Golem

Again, if you put down 5 golem spells suddenly these supposedly rare constructs are not so cool anymore imo. PnP has only a single 9th lvl spell to summon them and I think that making them widely available would make other summons look bad as golems are simply put the best tanks ever, and I'm not even sure the AI is prepared to face them (probably not).

 

I'm curious to know what other players think though.

 

Mordenkainen's Sword

I think you know my opinion on Mord's Sword not being a summoned monster at all, but an actual sword (whether created or not, it's different) that is enchanted and controlled, so it should be in Alteration or (my pick) Enchantment/Charm.

Mordy is an Evocation spell, not a real summon. Ideally I wanted to make it not affected by Banishment (Death Spell made even less sense) but afaik the AI counters it with that spell (at least SCS, I don't remember if vanilla AI even tried to find a counter).

 

I agree that it would have probably more sense in the form of Alteration's Animate Object, but it's a too drastic change for such a fan favorite spell imo.

[bradinmemph]

@demi

post above re edited for ease of reading

 

removed posted new post below.. since conversation happens lol

[Jarno Mikkola]

Again, if you put down 5 golem spells suddenly these supposedly rare constructs are not so cool anymore imo. PnP has only a single 9th lvl spell to summon them and I think that making them widely available would make other summons look bad as golems are simply put the best tanks ever, and I'm not even sure the AI is prepared to face them (probably not).

This is a very good point... I could see the MSIX 'removed' and have Summon Golem in it's place. Also the summons are usually never used alone, so having just multiple summon options is not the most special thing one should go for.

 

Mordy is an Evocation spell, not a real summon. Ideally I wanted to make it not affected by Banishment (Death Spell made even less sense) but afaik the AI counters it with that spell (at least SCS, I don't remember if vanilla AI even tried to find a counter).

 

I agree that it would have probably more sense in the form of Alteration's Animate Object, but it's a too drastic change for such a fan favorite spell imo.

Erhm, so you can't make it Enchantment spell ?

It doesn't matter if the Banishment spell is able or not able to danish the enchantment away from it's cold dead clutches, it still can be Enchantment school spell. And thus add a little more utility to the other school.

 

I worry about the usability of the Umberhulks... on one hand they are extremely good if the one thing goes off good, on the other hand, if it doesn't work, they easily get their %&¤€=? kicked and hard. One horrific word with MSVIII, trolls.

 

@demi

post above re edited for ease of reading

To tell you the truth, it's still not that good... I would requote the posts and make a totally new post but instead of sending it use the More Reply Options button, and the switch that you can use to show you the forum code, edit the message until you are satisfied with it, copy it to a Notepad file, and then edit the former post and making sure it shows up correctly...

 

Quoting the future...

MSII

Kobolds, because (I fear) Green Slimes can mess up quest npcs with that chunking disease they have.

Or Gray Ooze upgradeable to Mustard Jelly (probably pretty late, like at level 7).

Or Demi could be smart and use his own creatures that don't possess bad side effects...

[zenblack]

ASI: Bats should have a distracting (-ac) swarm not a +hit swarm ability. If possible this could be a smallish AOE (I know small AOE's are hinky but 10ft max)

 

Why not Bombardier Beetles for one of the upper level AS?

 

Suggestions for Monster Summonings:

 

Gauth

Displacer Beast

Greater Basilisk

Hook Horror

Chimera

[n-ghost]

MSI

Gibberlings, 1\3\5 at 1\3\5 CL,respectively.

 

MSII

Kobolds, because (I fear) Green Slimes can mess up quest npcs with that chunking disease they have.

Or Gray Ooze upgradeable to Mustard Jelly (probably pretty late, like at level 7).

 

MSIII

Carrion Crawlers with one self-hasted Greater Carrion Crawler as later upgrade "leader" (two levels later or so).

 

MSIV

3 Giant spiders + 1 Sword Spider (upgrade, 2 levels later) + 1 Wraith Spider (another upgrade, another 2 levels later).

 

MSV

I'd vote for 2 Wolfweres + 1 Greater Wolfwere (moar AC\MR, regen, vulnerable only to +3 and such) as an upgrade at level 13 or so

 

MSVI

I'd move Otyugh here, seeing all those undead\extraplanar disease-immune creatures that start to swarm the party mid\late-game. Greater Otyugh (+2 weapon immunnity, nastier disease) as an upgrade 2 levels later.

 

MSVII

I'd put Umber Hulks here for the same reason: too many enemies immune to confusion at higher levels.

 

MSVIII

This might sound kinda crazy, but maybe... can we consider troll summoning? Those would be the ultimate tanks indeed (or, at least, a very formidable distraction).

 

If not, 3 Gauths (maybe with whooping Beholder "leader" in ToB levels) are as nice as it could get.

 

MSIX

Salamanders, with Noble as a "leader". Though instead it might be a golem as well, but then the duration must be pretty short imo (casters wouldn't be able to do ANYTHING to them, unless there is a spell introduced specifically with that in mind).

 

 

Demi, I have two questions to ask:

 

1) what will happen with that poor ASI after all?

 

2) would you consider making summoning cap removal an integral (maybe optional) part of SR?

 

zenblack, bats are no-go at all, since they crash EE same as rats

[subtledoctor]

Summon Fiend spells

Let's just say something like this would be really low on my priority list considering all the things I need to do for IR, SR and KR. Anyway, Conjurers already have plenty of stuff at every level imo and it starts to loose its uniqueness if you put powerful uncontrollable fiends everywhere, not to mention that balancing them is even harder than balancing normal summons...

 

Summon Golem

Again, if you put down 5 golem spells suddenly these supposedly rare constructs are not so cool anymore imo. PnP has only a single 9th lvl spell to summon them and I think that making them widely available would make other summons look bad as golems are simply put the best tanks ever, and I'm not even sure the AI is prepared to face them (probably not).

 

Oh don't get me wrong these are not demands for you. I will happily play with SR for years with none of that coming to fruition. I'm just kicking ideas around while we're here talking about this. Most of the extra-planar stuff is already there, and IMHO some of it needs to be rebalanced already (greater elementals might be too powerful at 7th level, and there's too much at 6th/7th level and not enough at 4th/5th and 8th). All I would suggest (maybe for SRv5! or let's say v4.5 ) is bring some order and sense to that category.

 

On golems, yeah that's completely pie-in-the-sky stuff. You make a good point about them becoming too common; on the other hand right now I think they are too rare. Maybe one spell would be nice (in a perfect world, where everyone has oodles of free time, etc.) As far as that goes, I would expect that a temporary golem created by a spell that takes 6 seconds to cast would be substantially more vulnerable than one that is crafted over months for a permanent existence. If such a spell ever were to become reality, I think the golem's resistances should definitely be reduced so the AI can handle it.

 

Erhm, so you can't make it Enchantment spell ?

It doesn't matter if the Banishment spell is able or not able to danish the enchantment away from it's cold dead clutches, it still can be Enchantment school spell. And thus add a little more utility to the other school.

 

Don't worry, I don't expect Demi to change Mord's - even though having it in Invocation is cuckoo-for-cocoa-puffs, that the game's fault, not his. I only brought it up because it was the only remaining wizard summon spell that wasn't mentioned in my post. Happily for you, my mod moves over into Enchantment, so SR doesn't need to. If you want to play that way, just install both mods!