XP Tables

[Jarno Mikkola]

THAC0, saving throws, spells, and proficiencies are also stored within the .cre file. If we are just talking about joinable NPCs, we don't have to worry about picking new spells or proficiencies for characters who would qualify for a new level, since we can leave them at whatever level they are and let players level them up when they join. For characters who no longer qualify for the level they have, we have the choice of leaving them at their higher level or trying to de-level them (which might mean unpicking proficiencies or spells).

Well, if necessary, patching joinable NPCs isn't that hard (we're not speaking of tons of creatures).

Well, considering install order, you might get to regret this list... hint hint, there's more than 1 per NPC.

[lynx]

As long as KR is installed last, this could be automated by just playing with npclevel.2da. Use the first cre file and make copies with just increased xp, then change the table to use them (and repeat for each row). The rest is up to the player, as Mike alluded to.

[Jarno Mikkola]

As long as KR is installed last,

Yeah, lets convince ourselves that we are the very best kit programmers and that no one will ever make any better or wish to change even the one .2da file in the whole bunch... we are after all the only ones that's are actually going to have any use for these... and so forth and so on. Or we could get the stick out our %&/#¤¤ ...

[Grammarsalad]

...Yes, as I said the idea is to use a slow xp progression table to slightly "nerf" party power level, especially within BG2 and ToB. Within BG1 the difference would be minimal (fighters, paladins, rangers and clerics already capped at level 8), only rogues and mages would have a lower level cap (8 instead of 10 and 9 respectively) but I already planned to greatly improve both classes at low levels as both of them already were very underperforming at low levels (for reasons not addressed by xp tables imo).

 

...

 

I want to second this. I find mages and sorcerers unbearable at low levels. I've altered their spell progression to simulate the bonus spells clerics get for 18 wis--+2 1st/2nd level spells cast; +1 3rd/4th when they first receive them--until KR properly fixes them

[Mike1072]

As long as KR is installed last, this could be automated by just playing with npclevel.2da. Use the first cre file and make copies with just increased xp, then change the table to use them (and repeat for each row). The rest is up to the player, as Mike alluded to.

I think most mod-added NPCs don't use npclevel.2da. Scripting is simpler, I guess?

 

As long as KR is installed last,

Yeah, lets convince ourselves that we are the very best kit programmers and that no one will ever make any better or wish to change even the one .2da file in the whole bunch... we are after all the only ones that's are actually going to have any use for these... and so forth and so on. Or we could get the stick out our %&/#¤¤ ...

Or the component that should be installed after joinable NPCs doesn't do anything except patch joinable NPCs.

 

THAC0, saving throws, spells, and proficiencies are also stored within the .cre file. If we are just talking about joinable NPCs, we don't have to worry about picking new spells or proficiencies for characters who would qualify for a new level, since we can leave them at whatever level they are and let players level them up when they join. For characters who no longer qualify for the level they have, we have the choice of leaving them at their higher level or trying to de-level them (which might mean unpicking proficiencies or spells).

Well, if necessary, patching joinable NPCs isn't that hard (we're not speaking of tons of creatures).

 

Anyway, as I said, this is not really a priority.

In that case, I'd recommend leaving their levels as-is and simply adjusting their skills, THAC0, and saves to match. That will be easy to code.

 

When it comes to non-joinable creatures, they aren't affected by eventual xp tables changes. They should be affected by thac0 & save tables though, and we and Arda left those tables out exactly because he needed time for the patching code.

You want to change their THAC0 and saving throw scores without changing their levels?

Yes, to match the new tables. Take for example a level 5 rogue, even if you keep vanilla's level with the revised tables he would have better thac0 and saves vs. breath.

I think this sort of thing should be accompanied by all the other things we would want to have in CR. We would be better able to address balance concerns if we were also changing abilities, stats, and addressing individual encounters.

[Ardanis]

Are we seriously discussing whether or not we can automatically grab all installed mod-added NPC?

[kreso]

Little feedback for XP tables, BG1

First, it makes little to no difference for early Fighters in BG1. I kind of ended up not even noticing they are there. With revised THAC0, they loose almost nothing.

Thieves - ummm...I'm divided on this matter. It takes a long time (relatively speeking) to get them away from 8 HP and 1 lucky critical hit death. Moreover, with the abduance of traps/locked chests/pickpocket chances you won't be able to use all of your skills consistenty without potions. Not that this is a bad thing, however Asassin will suffer even more than before in BG1.

Monks - It balances their APR nicely, they won't be getting 7/2 maximum in BG1 anymore which is a nice change. I haven't tried yet, but I think that in BG2 enchantment of their fist might come a bit late. Monsters that require +2 weapon aren't that uncommon.

Wizards - They're slow to get started anyway. But no more level 5 spells, apart scrolls? Not sure if I like it.

Clerics - heavy blow on them, hits them the hardes out of all classes imo. For SCS, it's crucial for them to get a fast level 3 so they can cast disables (Hold, Silence). Getting there is both slow and painful process.

Bards - haven't tried.

Druids - I kind of like their SR spellbook, plenty of damage, plenty of healing....quite hit by new XP table. Not as much as Clerics but I missed Fire Trap and Barkskin early. Will probably (haven't tried) be more balanced in BG2 (no more Fire Elementals from exiting Irenicus Dungeon).

Multiclasses - haven't tried. Probably hurt quite a bit. Leveling one Paladin/Ranger is hard enough in BG1, leveling 2 which share even quest XP is twice as hard.

[Demivrgvs]

Thanks kreso.

 

Let's see...first of all, it's pretty much obvious that ALL classes except Paladins and Rangers (and pretty much Fighters too) will be "hurt" for the simple reason that the current progression is the one used by those two classes in vanilla, and it was the slowest one.

 

I also expected both multi and dual classes to be hurt, especially dual classes because it makes much harder to dual with the first class at mid levels (aka if you dual at levels 7 or higher you will suffer the consequences).

 

I only released the XP tables because you guys asked for them, and trying them out seemed a good idea, but keep in mind that they are intended to be used with revised classes, not vanilla's ones:

- Wizards will almost surely get tons of new tools for low levels such as Cantrips (and not weak ones a la 3E, but good ones a la D&D Next) and probably Scribe Scrolls as well

- Clerics now have slightly better thac0 progression, and they will get better weapon selection (the base class is no more restricted to blunt weapons) and Channel Divinity powers

- Druids will be able to use Wild Shape at level 1

 

That being said, your report reminds me that in theory I once thought to use a custom table rather than paladin's one, and that ideally I do wanted to find a solution where you can get the first 3 or 4 levels relatively fast and then stabilize with a slow progression similar to paladin's one. Overall, I kinda expected the current tables to not perfectly suit BG1 and work much better within BG2.

[kreso]

Thanks kreso.

Np.

 

Let's see...first of all, it's pretty much obvious that ALL classes except Paladins and Rangers (and pretty much Fighters too) will be "hurt" for the simple reason that the current progression is the one used by those two classes in vanilla, and it was the slowest one.

Ofc. Just wanted to point ot which are nerfed the most.

 

I also expected both multi and dual classes to be hurt, especially dual classes because it makes much harder to dual with the first class at mid levels (aka if you dual at levels 7 or higher you will suffer the consequences).

Duals I don't like, so haven't tried them I'm afraid. But yes, things such as fast dual to thief or mage are now impossible. Cool.

 

I only released the XP tables because you guys asked for them, and trying them out seemed a good idea

It is a good idea. Besides, it's optional. I think that these really come to play at ToB levels, actually. Nerfing the amount of levels party gets there (shortest part of the game, yet allows for up to 20(!) high levels.... ) is indeed a good thing.

 

That being said, your report reminds me that in theory I once thought to use a custom table rather than paladin's one, and that ideally I do wanted to find a solution where you can get the first 3 or 4 levels relatively fast and then stabilize with a slow progression similar to paladin's one. Overall, I kinda expected the current tables to not perfectly suit BG1 and work much better within BG2.

I'd like at least first 3 to be faster.

[Jarno Mikkola]

WHY... specifically the original 8 000 000xp & 9 900 000 xp at 41 level cap... you should understand that the game can very well handle the level cap of -1xp & 50lvl, you just have to extend the tables as they are to account the facts in. Should you understand if we were to install but the BG2 Tweaks and this, the characters would stay at the 41th lvl forever, as you aren't touching the lvl/xp cap at all, if you were to not install the Bg2 tweak component, they all stop at the level 34 ... I can understand that you might wish this, but you won't be the only one that will use the table, so you should consider a change toward more common table.

[Grammarsalad]

Personally, I'm concerned about thieves. With low hp and poor skills they may feel like a liability at lower levels. Really looking forward to the wizard stuff. Any chance of getting a atweaksesque brew potion for them or clerics (or both?)

 

Anyway, on topic, a custom table might not be a bad idea... Those first few levels can be painful especially with 6xp scs kobolds!

[kreso]

WHY... specifically the original 8 000 000xp & 9 900 000 xp at 41 level cap... you should understand that the game can very well handle the level cap of -1xp & 50lvl, you just have to extend the tables as they are to account the facts in. Should you understand if we were to install but the BG2 Tweaks and this, the characters would stay at the 41th lvl forever, as you aren't touching the lvl/xp cap at all, if you were to not install the Bg2 tweak component, they all stop at the level 34 ... I can understand that you might wish this, but you won't be the only one that will use the table, so you should consider a change toward more common table.

Isn't it optional? Even if it wasn't, one can easilly install BG2 Tweaks over Kit Revisions for both THAC0 and level tables.

[Jarno Mikkola]

Isn't it optional? Even if it wasn't, one can easilly install BG2 Tweaks over Kit Revisions for both THAC0 and level tables.

Yeah, but the purpose of the whole cheese is to make the classes equally powered -kinda in the same XP rates, and thus give the other kit tables equal standing ... so if we were to first install the Kit Rev and then the BG2 Tweaks, we would end up with the thieves having much more power in the high levels in comparison to their counter parts in KR... hello +3 levels etc.

[kreso]

Yeah, but the purpose of the whole cheese is to make the classes equally powered -kinda in the same XP rates, and thus give the other kit tables equal standing ... so if we were to first install the Kit Rev and then the BG2 Tweaks, we would end up with the thieves having much more power in the high levels in comparison to their counter parts in KR... hello +3 levels etc.

Imo, +3 levels from 40+ are really irrelevant.

[Jarno Mikkola]

Imo, +3 levels from 40+ are really irrelevant.

At levels 8-11 it is relevant.