NTotSC for EET (and BGT and BG:EE) - Download

[jastey]

@Cahir If the mod gets harder again, then not by changing the insane creature stats back to what they were. But a little change in the direction of SCS difficulty - maybe even by making it possible for SCS to apply its changes to the mod creatures, as well, would be a very good compromise I think. Keep in mind that over-the-top hard fights make a mod unplayable for me, so I will not voluntarily make encounters like that with no possibility to toggle difficulty in some way.

[Angel]

These are the ideas I send to Jastey and am currently working on:

- Reduce the number of enchanted plate mails the mod gives out.  Currently this mod hands out three enchanted plates and one enchanted full plate.  I learned from two thorough plays that giving out too much enchanted plate makes the party practically invulnerable to all but a handful of enemies in BG1/SoD.  Especially enchanted full plate with that massive bonus to slashing and piercing is problematic.  I will replace some of the plate with enchanted scale/splint which is underrepresented in BG1 (only normal and +1 versions exist in an unmodded game, and the latter are quite rare), and will make sure nothing is stronger than "The Practical Defense" from Durlag's Tower.  (Most will probably be weaker but have extra abilities to compensate.)
- Take another look at Ogi-Luc's Great Robe.  Much as I like this item, it is more powerful than anything found in SoD and thus a bit unbalancing.  I am currently looking for a less powerful but still interesting mage robe to replace it with.
- General Ghotal will become a full-fledged ghost of the 3rd or 4th magnitude as described in Van Richten's Guide to Ghosts, with appropriate resistances and a few salient abilities.  I'm currently thinking the ability to summon ghostly orc warriors (like those encountered in The Hand in IWD) as backup, and a cold-based attack similar to Cone of Cold (which his goons will be immune to).
- Give Haebal a second form of some sort, I am currently thinking ogre mage, to both present an extra challenge and to explain why he uses a scythe as a weapon.
- Make the "lesser tanar'ri" in the Fireleaf Forest dungeon actual lesser tanar'ri as suggested earlier, of a level-appropriate type.  NTotSC was meant to be played after TotSC, which would normally raises a party to about level 8-10 (the XP cap of TotSC was 161,000, and even with it lifted there is only about 200,000-250,000 xp in the entirety of BG1 + TotSC without extra mods or excessive grinding).  Maurezhi, perhaps backed by a nabassu or other lesser tanar'ri seem to be the logical choice.
- The reward for the Nim Furlwing encounter is currently the Summon Cow joke item, I'm thinking of replacing it with something less silly.  Not that I am against some silly fun now and then (my Spell Pack currently installs a clip from My Little Pony as a hidden extra movie), but I would prefer this to be a mostly serious quest mod.  The BG1UB version of this same restored encounter uses a scroll of Animal Summoning, perhaps that would be adequate for this one too.

If people really, really wanted to I probably could write something that optionally reverses some of the nerfs, but as I see it now there wouldn't be many people that'd use it.

[Angel]

9 minutes ago, Arthas said:

The only thing that I ask is not to overnerf items. I mean, it's cool when you find something that is stronger than the stuff in the original game, as long as it is
1) unique
2) has a relevant place to exist
3) It's hard to get.

I hear you and agree (that was actually my philosophy behind "The Final Strike", the war hammer +3 from my Item Pack), but now that SoD exists items from the BG1 portion should IMHO not overshadow the stuff found there.  I plan to revise exactly three items, these are Ghotal's full plate (which I have the biggest issue with), Tytus's umber hulk plate (not too big an issue actually, just redundant) and as mentioned above Ogi-Luc's Great Robe (which I like actually and might move to my own item pack for use in BG2).  Note that I myself added all three of these to the current version, so the issue is of my own making. ^^

[subtledoctor]

Ogi-Luc's Great Robe gives 18/99 STR and can only be used by single-class mages, right?  (If I remember IWD correctly.)  Doesn't seem too OP to me... especially with something like IR installed, there are a lot of other robes I would rather put on a wizard.

I love the idea of Haeball turning into a powerful Ogre Mage after you take him down to ~25% hp or something like that. 

I also really like the idea of Ghotal summoning IWD-style "shadowed orcs," especially if there is a nice tactical variety (archer, grunt, shaman).

[Angel]

1 hour ago, subtledoctor said:

Ogi-Luc's Great Robe gives 18/99 STR and can only be used by single-class mages, right?  (If I remember IWD correctly.)  Doesn't seem too OP to me... especially with something like IR installed, there are a lot of other robes I would rather put on a wizard.

AC 4, strength 18/99, constitution +2.  And yes, single-mage only.  Mm, maybe it's not as bad as I thought.  The Robe of the Archmagi is arguably better despite its worse AC.  Maybe it can stay.

[subtledoctor]

On 1/24/2020 at 2:20 PM, Angel said:

AC 4, strength 18/99, constitution +2.  And yes, single-mage only.  Mm, maybe it's not as bad as I thought.  The Robe of the Archmagi is arguably better despite its worse AC.  Maybe it can stay.

Oh, yeah.  Huh, that's pretty crazy I guess.  Clearly designed for late-game IWD (which had no kits).  I mean, if I was playing a Dragon Disciple, that's the kind of thing I might wear in TOB...

[Angel]

On 1/26/2020 at 8:44 PM, subtledoctor said:

Oh, yeah.  Huh, that's pretty crazy I guess.  Clearly designed for late-game IWD (which had no kits).  I mean, if I was playing a Dragon Disciple, that's the kind of thing I might wear in TOB...

Yeah, I am inclined to bring this one to BG2 as part of my item pack instead.  Single mage only is a big restriction, but still this is a very good item.  Originally there was an even better one there, Namji's robe, which gave an even better AC  and regeneration, and had less restrictions. ^^

Anyway, browsing my copy of Encyclopedia Magica for inspiration, I find an item called the "Rock Robe".  No AC bonus, but it gives immunity to petrification and casts Stone Skin (well, actually Statue, but that is not in BG) and Stone to Flesh once a day.  Not too powerful, but it could be fairly useful for BG1/SoD.

[Lightbringer]

Back on track!
I second Arthas' remarks regarding unique items.  In my opinion, it's okay for a mod to introduce an item that exceeds (within reason) vanilla items.  Same guidelines Arthas posted. Make me earn it.  In a way, that's exactly what TotSC did.  I very much enjoy finding those little spikes in power peppered throughout the game.

I always felt that there was a dearth of magic items in BG1, followed by an explosion of power and wealth in BG2.  Tossing in NTotSC, DSotSC, Stone of Askavar, Bone Hill, and others into BG1 helps to smooth out that power curve. I like that there are powerful items guarded by vampires in the new Firewine, or the DoomTeddy, sword spiders, and vampire wolves in the Temple map next to Beregost. If you think you can handle it, go get 'em tiger -- and be rewarded.

On 1/23/2020 at 11:37 PM, jastey said:

@Cahir If the mod gets harder again, then not by changing the insane creature stats back to what they were. But a little change in the direction of SCS difficulty - maybe even by making it possible for SCS to apply its changes to the mod creatures, as well, would be a very good compromise I think. Keep in mind that over-the-top hard fights make a mod unplayable for me, so I will not voluntarily make encounters like that with no possibility to toggle difficulty in some way.

I cannot agree more. Incidentally, some creatures already benefit from SCS. The lesser vampires in the new Firewine areas get all the SCS buffs (which made for some awesome fights). Spiders, trolls, mages. All get boosts from SCS no matter where they come from. Packs of orc mages/priests in Bone Hill were quite challenging. I imagine they will be the same in the various orc-encamped forests in NToTSC.

Also, Ghost Ghotal sounds great! Shadow Orc minions (especially those tactical groups) would add well.

[Lightbringer]

On 1/24/2020 at 1:20 PM, Angel said:

AC 4, strength 18/99, constitution +2.  And yes, single-mage only.  Mm, maybe it's not as bad as I thought.  The Robe of the Archmagi is arguably better despite its worse AC.  Maybe it can stay.

 

On 1/26/2020 at 1:44 PM, subtledoctor said:

Oh, yeah.  Huh, that's pretty crazy I guess.  Clearly designed for late-game IWD (which had no kits).  I mean, if I was playing a Dragon Disciple, that's the kind of thing I might wear in TOB...

See? OP for some is meh for others. 

Me? I'd probably pop out NI, tick the Fighter/Mage and Thief/Mage box, give it to Imoen, Dynaheir, or Charname, and enjoy a power burst for BG1 -- knowing that it'll all be reset going into BG2.

[subtledoctor]

4 minutes ago, Lightbringer said:

Me? I'd probably pop out NI, tick the Fighter/Mage and Thief/Mage box, give it to Imoen, Dynaheir, or Charname, and enjoy a power burst for BG1 -- knowing that it'll all be reset going into BG2.

I don't begrudge what anyone does in their game - in fact I have a vague recollection of using Ogi-Luc's robe on a cleric/thief in IWD, though it may have been a mistake due to some imprecise item-patching code.  But the question at this stage is how to design the thing at the outset, with an 'all-else-being-equal' mindset.  It might be the right move to change it to "Ogi-Luc's Pretty Good Robe," with STR set to 17, CON +1, and AC 6, only usable by Transmuters.  Then there's nothing stopping you from opening NI and doing whatever you want with it. 

I totally take your point about getting a sweet power boost at the end of the game, and I think that sort of thing can be good game design.  But it's worth making sure that is really what happens.  Look at Durlag's Goblet as an example: a powerful item to help with difficult late-game content newly added by the expansion (hello, greater wolfweres).  But now, in 2020 with EEs and kits and EET, it can be used by kits that have natural undispellable immunity to its Fear effect (which did not exist when the item was designed), and it can be used all through SoD and BG2.  In this new context, it is a very poor fit.

[Angel]

1 hour ago, subtledoctor said:

I totally take your point about getting a sweet power boost at the end of the game, and I think that sort of thing can be good game design.  But it's worth making sure that is really what happens.  Look at Durlag's Goblet as an example: a powerful item to help with difficult late-game content newly added by the expansion (hello, greater wolfweres).  But now, in 2020 with EEs and kits and EET, it can be used by kits that have natural undispellable immunity to its Fear effect (which did not exist when the item was designed), and it can be used all through SoD and BG2.  In this new context, it is a very poor fit.

I'm not against adding a little spice to BG1, heck that's what my item pack is for after all, and why I added a few new items to NTotSC to begin with.  But as you said in moderation, and further play-testing from my side has raised some concerns about a few of my own additions.

I fully get handing out a few power items near the end of the game, but with SoD and EET in the playing field, the Sarevok battle is no longer truly the end of the game anymore.  I am currently considering a few options for the robe, like that Rock Robe I mentioned earlier.  Here's to hoping I don't create yet another problem.  Unbalancing a game is surprisingly easy to do.

[subtledoctor]

The Rock Robe sounds cool. Very similar to IR’s Boots of the Gargoyle. 1x/day Stoneskin is cool but not game-breaking - IR even lets non-wizards use it, putting it in the same category as the sword that casts Mirror Image or the helm that casts Simulacrum. That’s especially reasonable for a robe, which would take the place of armor.

[Lightbringer]

On 1/29/2020 at 1:56 PM, subtledoctor said:

I don't begrudge what anyone does in their game - in fact I have a vague recollection of using Ogi-Luc's robe on a cleric/thief in IWD, though it may have been a mistake due to some imprecise item-patching code.  But the question at this stage is how to design the thing at the outset, with an 'all-else-being-equal' mindset.  It might be the right move to change it to "Ogi-Luc's Pretty Good Robe," with STR set to 17, CON +1, and AC 6, only usable by Transmuters.  Then there's nothing stopping you from opening NI and doing whatever you want with it. 

I totally take your point about getting a sweet power boost at the end of the game, and I think that sort of thing can be good game design.  But it's worth making sure that is really what happens.  Look at Durlag's Goblet as an example: a powerful item to help with difficult late-game content newly added by the expansion (hello, greater wolfweres).  But now, in 2020 with EEs and kits and EET, it can be used by kits that have natural undispellable immunity to its Fear effect (which did not exist when the item was designed), and it can be used all through SoD and BG2.  In this new context, it is a very poor fit.

Fair point about design from the outset.  Personally, I think the Robe is fine as is -- in a mod-vacuum. For a single class wizard, Str is mostly useless.  You probably already have a 16 Con, so you don't get any HP benefit. Best case is a little better AC, and maybe getting your Con HP-capped at 16, if it wasn't already. Your fighter is already wearing the Gauntlets of Ogre Power (and doesn't have a Wizard's THAC0) and your other fighter read the Str manual from Candlekeep and has Hill Giant Strength.

I've heard about the Durlag's Goblet issue. I never saw it as much of a problem. In the base game, I considered it a pretty useless item, as the character that drinks from it gets feared as soon as battle is joined (iirc).

(Edit: Looked into it, and apparently it was bugged to grant a FULL heal, instead of the listed 5hp. That's obviously whacked.  Apparently I believed the description and never used it. The 12 hour panic curse is monstrous. Read a thread that suggested keeping item as is, but with a 1/day use, instead of charges cheaply restored via shopkeeper. Sounds reasonable. The below stuff assumes a small amount of healing, not a full heal, so I guess it's mostly moot )

Even in EE/EET with various fear-immune kits, it's not really that big a deal.  You're talking, one maybe two party members. The game engine itself makes for an easier game, so right there the impact of one or two characters getting free healing is not as drastic. (Just remembered, wasn't there a Khel's Helmet that made the wearer immune to fear -- thus introducing that "loophole" into the base game?)

And here's the strange issue with design.  I'm guessing that modders have to design and balance assuming that their mod is the only one present. It makes sense, because otherwise how on earth could you account for anything/everything?  At the same time, it's also rather unrealistic. How many of us just one mod?  We all mod differently. This was a problem they had with D&D 3.0/3.5 supplements. They had to assume each supplement was the only supplement in play -- which was almost never the case. It led to weird synergies at some times, and annoying nerfs in others, that we had to houserule around.

(In the above example of the Goblet, I'm probably level 10-12 (level cap removed) going through Durlag, with all kinds of power boosts and items from other mods, and I have several items that give me regen -- not to least of which is a belt from Thal's Item Upgrade that grants +3AC, Regen, and +1Str. And that one's pre-bandit camp. I'm pretty sure I can get another item or two of regen.  All the Goblet does is make it so I have one fewer character to pass the belt around to between fights to heal up.  Not to mention I'm nearly double the level originally expected for ToTSC.) Edit: Cool story, if it wasn't a full heal >.>

At the same time, there's no way you can necessarily assume my case is typical. Might be common. 'Dunno. Point is, I'm not sure if time spent worrying about smaller levels of unbalancing is worthwhile -- maybe just the great big screaming ones (Edit: which, incidentally, a FULL healing Goblet is one such, so it seems).  It's a tricky problem. Your general idea about watching for unintended consequences certainly stands.

Edited February 2, 2020 by Lightbringer
Edumicated muhself on teh Gobletz

[Angel]

On 1/29/2020 at 10:50 PM, subtledoctor said:

The Rock Robe sounds cool. Very similar to IR’s Boots of the Gargoyle. 1x/day Stoneskin is cool but not game-breaking - IR even lets non-wizards use it, putting it in the same category as the sword that casts Mirror Image or the helm that casts Simulacrum. That’s especially reasonable for a robe, which would take the place of armor.

I'm currently experimenting with that one and another one I whipped up last week, the Robe of Eyes (current stats: immunity to backstab and critical hit, can target improved invisible creatures with spells, +15% find traps and detect illusion, True Sight 1/day).

Edited February 2, 2020 by Angel

[subtledoctor]

31 minutes ago, Angel said:

I'm currently experimenting with that one and another one I whipped up last week, the Robe of Eyes (current stats: immunity to backstab and critical hit, can target improved invisible creatures with spells, +15% find traps and detect illusion, True Sight 1/day).

I like that one too.  Would work well with my 'Insanctibility' mod (which merges Invisibility and Sanctuary, and would enable your robe to allow targeting any invisible creatures, instead of just improved invisible creatures).