Monster Summoning 9 Alternatives

[Bartimaeus]

​I am looking for ideas for an alternative monster to basilisks for this spell. One, they have a tendency to crash some games. Two, they just repeatedly ruin fights over and over for the player. SR removed the Protection from Petrification spell, so any lich that casts this pretty much instantly ruins your party unless you have a bunch of Fireballs on a spell sequencer (unless there is some other way of protecting against this that I don't know about). Three, they have the tendency to either be OP in a fight, or completely useless. So I am looking to replace them entirely - does anyone have any ideas? Umber Hulks are MS8, in comparison. Should be a natural abberation: i.e. non-elemental, non-demonic, non-undead, non-construct. Current possibilities I can think of are: greater wolfweres, and spirit or spectral trolls.

[subtledoctor]

Is kreso's variant SCS causing AI mages to auto-summon basilisks? That could be problematic. But at least it would be super easy to make a hotfix to patch the game once a suitable replacement spell is devised.

 

(There are ways to counter petrification: IR has several potions and scrolls that would make sure you don't get petrified. And they shouldn't be able to target you if you are invisible. SR should introduce a Form Stabilization spell that replaces the missing SI:Alteration... somebody put that on the to-do list.)

 

Greater Wolfweres would wreck the game, I think. There's no way the AI could put together the proper tactics or short-term coordinated damage maximization required to put them down.

 

Spectral trolls might work. Giant trolls or something like that would be simpler to implement and could also work.

 

But I've said it before and I'll say it again: the crowning glory of monster summoning spells for a Conjurer should be one that brings forth a fiend from the lower planes, bound to the caster's will. Just use Summon Fiend* here.

 

* (Suitably improved, of course. And Gate should be an HLA, with Pit Fiends, also suitably improved, replacing the abomination that is Summon Planetar.)

Edited March 30, 2018 by subtledoctor

[Jarno Mikkola]

* (Suitably improved, of course.

Or you could just give them a vanilla summons. Why, because mages aren't supposed to be able to summon character killer level champions and be immune to every sort of damage while doing it, while being at the same level.

[Bartimaeus]

Is kreso's variant SCS causing AI mages to auto-summon basilisks? That could be problematic. But at least it would be super easy to make a hotfix to patch the game once a suitable replacement spell is devised.

 

(There are ways to counter petrification: IR has several potions and scrolls that would make sure you don't get petrified. And they shouldn't be able to target you if you are invisible. SR should introduce a Form Stabilization spell that replaces the missing SI:Alteration... somebody put that on the to-do list.)

 

Greater Wolfweres would wreck the game, I think. There's no way the AI could put together the proper tactics or short-term coordinated damage maximization required to put them down.

 

Spectral trolls might work. Giant trolls or something like that would be simpler to implement and could also work.

 

But I've said it before and I'll say it again: the crowning glory of monster summoning spells for a Conjurer should be one that brings forth a fiend from the lower planes, bound to the caster's will. Just use Summon Fiend* here.

 

* (Suitably improved, of course. And Gate should be an HLA, with Pit Fiends, also suitably improved, replacing the abomination that is Summon Planetar.)

 

Yes, SCS auto-summons basilisks. Tolgerias, Deril, and I think the Bridge painting lich have done this for me so far in my current game.

 

Yeah, Protection from Alterations (...but I'm not sure if any of these exist in BG2, even with IR? Maybe a couple on some temple stores?), Periapt of Form Stability, and Potion of Mirrored Eyes. All very limited use items, and because of SCS targeting, you will generally have to affect the entire party with the protections - especially the Bridge painting lich where there's literally no room to hide any of your characters out of range from the basilisks. So...yeah, not ideal. The final way that I can think of is Ghostform...but you can only cast that at the very tail end of Shadows of Amn, if at all, and it only affects the mage casting it.

 

Hmm, good point on greater werewolves. I think they have...4hp/sec regeneration, I want to say? Not a terrible problem for the player, but rather difficult for the AI if there are multiple of them (presumably 2) along with the player characters and possibly other summons.

 

The top-end summoning spells are a bit of a mess, and I personally don't care for SR's fiend summoning spells (indeed, I prefer atweaks').

 

@Jarno: I somewhat agree. Planetars already fulfill that role, and people complain about them, too (as subtledoctor just did!). I don't think fiends should be directly controllable as a trade-off for being quite powerful compared to all the other summoning spells around their level.

Edited March 31, 2018 by Bartimaeus

[Luke]

​Should be a natural abberation: i.e. non-elemental, non-demonic, non-undead, non-construct. Current possibilities I can think of are: greater wolfweres, and spirit or spectral trolls.

What about Frost/Fire Giants?

[kreso]

To chip in.

1) I'll upload a newer scs tweak version, all auto-summons are gone.

2) basilisks are gone from MSIX

3) my idea about MSIX were also (greater) werewolves; albeit not the same "kind" that exist in the game; they'd have less regen etc.

I'm not too convinced about them however. The thing with anything "big" such as giants, is that their feet circle is "big" so they botch up a lot of places. The power level of them is however quite spot-on for lvl9 spell. I like the idea of trolls. Salamanders with som kind of elemental halberd weapon? Being fire-immune late game is nice....

4) Demons have different scripts from "normal" summons. With SR, there's a 15% chance a demon will attack your party instead of enemies. They're kinda "special" and AI uses them, so I won't touch them.

5) "Form stability" is an exellent idea. And I've got just the place to put in in - given petrification is now countered by Break Enchantment, Freedom etc. Wizard 6th level spell Stone to Flesh will grant immunity to petrification. Given this is so very situational, this alone isn't nearly worth a 6th level slot. So the spell must do more than giving a simple immunity to a single disable.

Ideas? Imprisonment (there's no more SI:Abj to work with) + polymorph immunity? And a new name for this spell would also be required. I believe in PnP there is Dimensional Anchor or something....

 

Btw, SCS AI doesn't recognize Potions of Mirrored eyes (yet), so any targeting done by basilisks is completely random. Even w/o SR, they won't notice any protection apart 1st level Pro Petrify spell.

[Jarno Mikkola]

Wizard 6th level spell Stone to Flesh will grant immunity to petrification. Given this is so very situational, this alone isn't nearly worth a 6th level slot. So the spell must do more than giving a simple immunity to a single disable.

Ideas?

It could damage constructions(or rather Golems with say magic damage, to which the Flesh Goldem is immune to) a few bits. Say like 50 hit points.

Summons with adequate regeneration... too much... Unless they have 1 hp in which case it doesn't matter. Maybe you should keep two tabs on for an ettin.

Edited April 3, 2018 by Jarno Mikkola

[Daxtreme]

Stone to Flesh could transform Stone Golems into Flesh Golems?

 

Haha!

[kreso]

Stone to Flesh could transform Stone Golems into Flesh Golems?

 

Haha!

Yes, and it's SR compatible.

[Jarno Mikkola]

As I already rather than an Elemental Giant, an Ettin would be better Monster, for a level 9 mage spell.

 

Stone to Flesh could transform Stone Golems into Flesh Golems?

 

Haha!

It wouldn't, the golems are enough magic immune that it would rather deconstruct, than transform. At least without any special procedures. Which is why the damage would be there. It just tranforms a portion of the whoile, which then won't be part of the golem and thus falls to the ground as inactive/dead lump.

[InKal]

Bigger Greater Werewolves (hehe)

 

1d12

claw +3/+4

both slash and blunt

20% chance for bleed damage

 

+4 bonus slash/blunt damage exclusively against vampires/undead

 

deathspell/fog immune

[kreso]

Bigger Greater Werewolves (hehe)

 

deathspell/fog immune

No.

 

I'm undecided; werewolves or salamanders are my top pick. Trolls are fine, but I'd have to make them killable by other stuff not just fire/acid.

[Bartimaeus]

A salamander is an elemental type, so I'd opt for greater werewolf. However, it would not be the end of the world to ignore that if salamanders seem like the better choice. I did not think of the troll fire/acid thing - they would definitely need to not have that property for it to be fair to the AI.

[Jarno Mikkola]

A level 9 creature can be a giant sized, cause you won't have it with 9 other similar level summons to blockage entrances, so I still vote for the Ettin to be better than any of the elemental salamanders, trolls or werewolves.

Ouh and would you look at the vanilla stats. Similar to vanilla demons, and not OP to kill a level 16-18 fighter party. As they are level 10 themselves, yes, 80 hit points, without CON modifier counted. That's about where summons should be at.

As you have level 1 creatures at caster level 5, then level 3 creatures at level 7, level 5 at caster 9, 6 at caster level 11, level 7 at caster level 13, level 8 at caster level 15, and level 9 at caster level 17. The transition of from (level -4) to ((level -4) /2) happens cause the player get only 9 to 11 levels of dX+CON bonus hitpoints, which the monsters don't.

Edited April 6, 2018 by Jarno Mikkola

[Salk]

Removing the iconic death by acid/fire from summoned trolls would be undesirable, in my opinion.

 

My vote goes with Greater Werewolves.