Last call for SCS v32 fixes

[subtledoctor]

6 hours ago, Bartimaeus said:

Huh. I thought the colors would be switched from what you described. Blue would be empty (because it doesn't contain hostile effects in of itself), while white is full (because it could contain either hostile or friendly effects). I guess it's a little arbitrary either way you look at it, though.

Well, I figured the vanilla spell icon and its scroll and spellbook variants are white, and the vanilla spell takes you to the screen where you fill the sequencer. Makes sense to me to leave that association intact. Plus, white by its nature seems empty, featureless. 

The beneficial/neutral/hostile split for vanilla spell icons doesn't really work for sequencers because they can hold any kinds of effects. Frankly it doesn't work very well in the vanilla game either, it is not that informative and needlessly limiting. I only used blue for active sequencers because, at the most basic at-a-glance level, in being non-white it signifies "not empty of meaning." Which is really all a player needs, unless we're going to talk about a more involved mod that somehow indicates which spells are inside it. (Making the filled sequencer red or blue depending on what spells you put in it would be AMAZING... probably not possible, but it would be pretty easy to give the player a choice when they cast the spell... hmm... I have to run and, uh, check on something. Brb)

Edited January 28, 2019 by subtledoctor

[DrAzTiK]

2 hours ago, DavidW said:

In vanilla BG2, AI-cast Mislead spells use illusory spells: they have visual effects only and don't actually affect anyone, but they can fool the inattentive player into thinking they're real. SCS just does the same thing.

looooool Ok it is interesting ....

[AL|EN]

9 hours ago, subtledoctor said:

Are we going to have an argument about marker files all over again? They have been used since time immemorial and they work fine. 

Are we? Last time I've check you were fully aware about limitations of the marker files:

"The downside to marker files - and, I think, what we are considering here - is that I don't think a GUI Weidu app could read marker file dependencies and forbiddances and translate them into visual conflicts in the GUI." 

so what's changed since then? 

9 hours ago, subtledoctor said:

As I said, the Tome & Blood component is going to soon grow to ~5 different components, all of which will conflict with the SCS component. SCS v33 might not be released for years, so it's not like the FORBID clause can just be updated later. 

SCS will generally be installed after TnB, so it's out of my hands to address the conflict - I did ask Wisp for something like FORBID_LATER_COMPONENT and I was shot down. If you can provide a constructive suggestion for how to actually deal with this, I'm all ears.

I do but let me first show you that it's in you hands:

1. you are creating locally defined qdtnb_metamagic.qd marker file (DavidW will probably also take you marker files into consideration)
2. then, you are allowing to use such file by any mod as a source for global conflict for other mods (SCS)
3. lastly, you are you commit to add a similar check to TnB with SCS file markers, after SCS 32 release

It's very good example of how establish a cooperation in regards to global mod conflicts. And it's yet another case when you could apply GUID feature. You just have to request GUID keyword to be implemented (it's almost copy paste LABEL code for GUID keyword) and:

1. instead of marker files, define two GUID's: SPELLSYSTEM:SPELLS:SEQUENCER and SPELLSYSTEM:SPELLS:CONTINGENCY for each (future) component
2. by definition, GUID's are allow to be used by any mod as a source for global conflict for other mods, just like marker files
3. ask DavidW to use the same GUID for SCS related components, so you can forbid GUID before SCS release
4. 3rd-party tools/Weidu GUI app will interpret this as "allow only one component with the same GUID's"

There, a way to exclude overlapping components by two or more mods. It's the same story with YARS, proficiency system changes and XP changes.

9 hours ago, subtledoctor said:

But I think it's unreasonable to increase the risk that players will run into a conflict, for the sake of your unreleased alpha-stage app. 

We are talking about current weidu features so what conflict are you talking about in terms of my app?

Edited January 29, 2019 by AL|EN

[DavidW]

55 minutes ago, AL|EN said:

We are talking about current weidu features so what conflict are you talking about in terms of my app?

GUID is not a current WEIDU feature. Get back to me when it is and we'll talk. Until then I'm happy checking for a marker file.

Subtledoctor: if you want to detect my version, it's component 4250 (and I don't anticipate that changing any time soon) and the marker file is weidu_external/markers/dw#innate_triggers.mrk . Put both checks if you want to cover the bases.

[Vlar]

Last time I played (it was with RC6 or 7) I found that most NPCs lost their vanilla special ability in BG1 (like each of them has one, that is not part of the class kit, and it was lost, for example Branwen didn't have Spiritual Hammer ability).

[subtledoctor]

1 hour ago, AL|EN said:

Are we? Last time I've check you were fully aware about limitations of the marker files:

so what's changed since then? 

The only thing different here is that, in these particular circumstances, I'm not aware of a better way to do it.

1 hour ago, AL|EN said:

I do but let me first show you that it's in you hands:

1. you are creating locally defined qdtnb_metamagic.qd marker file (DavidW will probably also take you marker files into consideration)

...

And it's yet another case when you could apply GUID feature. You just have to request GUID keyword to be implemented

It's not that I'm planning to create that file; that file already exists, has existed for several years, and it is already in the override folder of everyone using that TnB component.  I'm just bringing it to DavidW's attention.  Using FORBID with TnB component #130 could also work, for a very short time... but soon that component will be abolished in favor of several subcomponents (probably 131 through ~135, but that's not guaranteed).  The marker file is, for now, the only guaranteed stable identifier.

I very much support your GUID idea, and seconded your request in the PPG forums... but it doesn't solve the problem now.  For now, I think the issue is pretty simple:

• SCS v32 can REQUIRE_PREDICATE NOT FILE_EXISTS_IN_GAME TnB's marker file
• TnB v8 can FORBID_COMPONENT "SCS" "4250" and R_P N F_E_I_G the SCS marker file
• BWS and its ilk can set up its own conflict definition between the two
• Project Infinity can hopefully detect the TNB FORBID_COMPONENT line
• Zeitgeist, if and when it implements conflict avoidance, can hopefully also detect the TNB FORBID_COMPONENT line
• SCS v33 and TnB v9 can hopefully, at some future date, use GUID

4 minutes ago, DavidW said:

if you want to detect my version, it's component 4250 (and I don't anticipate that changing any time soon) and the marker file is weidu_external/markers/dw#innate_triggers.mrk . Put both checks if you want to cover the bases.

Will do, thanks

[Angel]

The difficulty setting seems to have absolutely no effect on vampires: they are always shapeshifting, calling wolves and rats, and dominating my party members even with overall difficulty and specific vampire difficulty set to basic.  As a result they are completely impossible for me to defeat.

Also a generic suggestion, if creatures are going to be significantly harder, could at least the random encounters be adjusted so that less of them spawn?

[DrAzTiK]

1 hour ago, Angel said:

The difficulty setting seems to have absolutely no effect on vampires: they are always shapeshifting, calling wolves and rats, and dominating my party members even with overall difficulty and specific vampire difficulty set to basic.  As a result they are completely impossible for me to defeat.

Also a generic suggestion, if creatures are going to be significantly harder, could at least the random encounters be adjusted so that less of them spawn?

I also confirm this bug about vampires.

 

[DavidW]

1 hour ago, Angel said:

The difficulty setting seems to have absolutely no effect on vampires: they are always shapeshifting, calling wolves and rats, and dominating my party members even with overall difficulty and specific vampire difficulty set to basic.

Looking at the code I can understand that to some extent, though some of it still puzzles me - you're sure they're Dominating on basic? I'll check it out, in any case.

1 hour ago, Angel said:

Also a generic suggestion, if creatures are going to be significantly harder, could at least the random encounters be adjusted so that less of them spawn?

I don't think that's sensible (though by all means persuade me otherwise). The idea of making creatures harder is to increase the challenge for the player; that's undermined by reducing spawn numbers.

[DavidW]

17 hours ago, subtledoctor said:

TnB v8 can FORBID_COMPONENT "SCS" "4250" and R_P N F_E_I_G the SCS marker file

Small point: my marker file is in weidu_external/markers, not in the override. Use FILE_EXISTS, not FILE_EXISTS_IN_GAME .

[Angel]

2 minutes ago, DavidW said:

Looking at the code I can understand that to some extent, though some of it still puzzles me - you're sure they're Dominating on basic? I'll check it out, in any case.

Well, after fiddling a bit more, it seems they don't dominate on basic.  They do still summon, shape-shift and backstab though.  And their shape-shifted forms seem to be nearly impossible to hit.

3 minutes ago, DavidW said:

I don't think that's sensible (though by all means persuade me otherwise). The idea of making creatures harder is to increase the challenge for the player; that's undermined by reducing spawn numbers.

Well, I suppose some of this is going to be subjective, but there is a fine line between a tough but fun challenge and keyboard-hurling impossible.  Vampire encounters are as you know very common in Shadows of Amn, and thus it is very likely that the party runs into them at a relatively low level, and more importantly before they have gotten a chance to pick up the items and spells that make them easier to handle.  Maybe you think differently, but having half my party dominated and/or dead within two rounds in a random encounter is not my idea of an enjoyable experience.  And yes, they can do that, even at basic.  At the very least, be careful with elder- and ancient vampires, they can easily become overwhelming.  But that's just my $0.02.  Maybe I should just go back to quest pack vampires.

[DavidW]

25 minutes ago, Angel said:

Well, I suppose some of this is going to be subjective, but there is a fine line between a tough but fun challenge and keyboard-hurling impossible.  Vampire encounters are as you know very common in Shadows of Amn, and thus it is very likely that the party runs into them at a relatively low level, and more importantly before they have gotten a chance to pick up the items and spells that make them easier to handle.  Maybe you think differently, but having half my party dominated and/or dead within two rounds in a random encounter is not my idea of an enjoyable experience.  And yes, they can do that, even at basic.  At the very least, be careful with elder- and ancient vampires, they can easily become overwhelming.  But that's just my $0.02.  Maybe I should just go back to quest pack vampires.

But that can't really be separated from your bug report. If you look at the difficulty setting, the intended BASIC difficulty is "Vampires fight fairly unintelligently and do not use their supernatural abilities, other than occasional shapeshifting", where "occasional shapeshifting" means that they occasionally turn into a wolf to attack. That's if anything slightly easier than the vanilla game, where vampires get Domination. I can entirely believe there's a bug in that, but that's not relevant to how things should work in a bug-free environment.

[subtledoctor]

2 hours ago, DavidW said:

Small point: my marker file is in weidu_external/markers, not in the override. Use FILE_EXISTS, not FILE_EXISTS_IN_GAME .

Yup, I picked up on that and I have it implemented locally. 

[DrAzTiK]

I was just made some test for my mod with RC8 in Irenicus lair and it looks like standard ranged attack  script seems to not working correctly. You can test with your own dwarf CRE in Irenicus lair : ranged dwarfs crossbowmans prefer to use melee weapon and ofen hit and run with melee weapon

vanilla dwarf also react like that . (like DUEARC01 for exemple)

Edited January 29, 2019 by DrAzTiK

[Lord_Tansheron]

While we're on the topic of vampires....

I'm the last person to eschew a challenge, but GODS are those rat swarms ridiculous on LoB mode. Even with reduced bonus HP for summons they soak up a damage total that's beyond belief. The wolves seem fine, but the rats are just frustratingly tedious to deal with.

Edited January 30, 2019 by Lord_Tansheron