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ckoe

Imoen as God of Murder Musings

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Thank you, too bad. I was just asking because the (more or less obvious) answer was missing from the BGII compatibility section. Well, I will probably make a variant modded installation then. I really like the idea of this mod !

A loosely related remark: In my opinion it would have been an interesting turn if the original story in the end would have been about Imoen eventually becoming the God of Murder  based on earlier player choices during the game. So, I am always interested in new perspectives.

 

Edited by ckoe

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"D'you wanna tell me a story about trollops and plugtails?  Pleeeeeease?"
"If not, then I shall slaughter everyone you know and love."

I'm having trouble envisioning the goddess of murder being so obsessed with all things pink. Then again ... BG2 does play with the whole "broke the cutie" trope.  The cognitive dissonance could provide for a eerily terrifying goddess of murder. If done just right, the complete fall into depravity of a once beloved symbol of innocence could be truly horrifying.

Edited by Lightbringer

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Imoen becoming the god of murder is not content of this mod.

But it is an intriguing idea, I have to admit.

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On 10/29/2019 at 5:43 PM, jastey said:

Imoen becoming the god of murder is not content of this mod.

But it is an intriguing idea, I have to admit.

Yes, I know of course 🙂 I meant new perspectives on the story of Imoen in general, and with  this mod the story is changed in some sense. Of course there is no new content except for the necessary dialogue adjustements. Still, while playing through the chapters where Imoen would be not present with the original story it will be interesting to speculate about what could have been.

 

On 10/29/2019 at 5:33 PM, Lightbringer said:

"D'you wanna tell me a story about trollops and plugtails?  Pleeeeeease?"
"If not, then I shall slaughter everyone you know and love."

I'm having trouble envisioning the goddess of murder being so obsessed with all things pink. Then again ... BG2 does play with the whole "broke the cutie" trope.  The cognitive dissonance could provide for a eerily terrifying goddess of murder. If done just right, the complete fall into depravity of a once beloved symbol of innocence could be truly horrifying.

"And I shall not be dark, but beautiful and terrible as the Morning and the Night! "

If you read the alternative story in the Unfinished Tales I again wonder what might have been.

Edited by ckoe
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On 10/29/2019 at 6:33 PM, Lightbringer said:

I'm having trouble envisioning the goddess of murder being so obsessed with all things pink.

Give Imoen a certain type blue monocle, and ouh, gee the pink paint on the monsters clothings when cut looks so facinating. Time to paint the town pink.

-This is why we lock people down in the Spellhold, to prevent this. I know it's too late... but, don't blaim.... argh, yeeaaaaaaggggghhhhh.

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The Imoen Romance mod offers the possibility of becoming "co-goddesses " of sorts at least. It makes the whole Ascension business seem that much less dreary and lonely. I would find it hard to see Imoen taking up the role without Charname urging her on, though.

Edited by Isewein

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As a non-native speaker, I was curious what sort of plants, animals or monsters "trollops and plugtails" might be. Let's just say that after googling, I'm none the wiser

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Hello everyone !

I did not expect this idea to gather so much interest. If I had known  I would have started a new thread, sorry about that.

Certainly this idea has some character of a total conversion. One would also have to throw quite some well established canon and fan content overboard I think. And  yes, the Imoen Romance mod was part of the origins of that stray idea, therefore I could not resist bringing it up. But it is and will remain just that, a stray idea. I am not sure even the original writers would have been able to do a plot twist like that convincingly. On the other hand Imoen as a late addition has so much wasted potential considering.

Enough now 🙂

 

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No worries, that's what the moderator powers are for (muahaha!).

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31 minutes ago, jastey said:

 the... powers are for (muahaha!).

She's a witch, she's a witch ! :devlook:

Yes, the actual humor comes from a devil accusing the actual goody two-shoes.

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3 hours ago, jastey said:

No worries, that's what the moderator powers are for (muahaha!).

OK, then maybe I will spin the idea a bit further 🙂

The original BG1 NPCs basically did not have any personality apart from their introduction dialogue. The BG1NPC project is what gives them personality. But with the beginning of BG2 (ignoring SoD) there is a quite marked change of tone brought about by Imoens dialogue compared to BG1 (with or without the BG1NPC) which is canonical. Starting from that observation:

There is no compelling reason to change anything in BG1/BG1NPC although one could change or add a bit of foreshadowing (perhaps Lord Foreshadow has an accident ? :-). Of ourse the original Imoen is NG, but a CG character  could act quite unpredictable.

The beginning of BG2 could then be coupled with a suitable alignment change on top of the canonical dual classing. And from the dialog it is quite clear that Imoen is very distressed, so that is believable. The original game then spirits her away to Spellhold, I read the original design was to have her killed there. So, for large parts of BG2 there is not anything about Imoen apart from the dream scenes.  That is the premise where both the Imoen4ever and Imoen Romance start from.

I do not know the intentions of Jastey with regards to what the Imoen4ever mod should become once it is finished. And it is not really important because this idle idea of mine is not about Jasteys mod. Same with Imoen Romance (I would like to stay away from any controversies and history regarding it, please). Both are  just a demonstration pieces for me.

In principle the Imoen4ever demonstrates that a writer has an immense empty canvas for Imoen in the first part of the story with only a relatively minor modification. I do not know if it would be technically possible, but one could have Imoens alignment and reactions change throughout the whole game (Planescape style) based on PC decisions and dialogue choices. The abduction/ Spellhold part ? It just fits in the way the writer wants, and it would be also possible to start with any alignment changes with Spellhold and thoughout the late game and ToB. These aligment changes could be open or hidden on the character sheet.

And Imoen Romance demonstrates that there are two Bhaalspawn characters in the original design and that the interaction between them can be a different one than the original writers chose. So what interactions can you have ? Imoen Romance is one rather limited alternative exposition of that theme.  But a good writer (which I am decidedly not) could do so much more I assume while staying in theme and character, depending on how sinister and murderous the writer likes the interaction. There could be open or hidden conflict between Imoen and the PC. Also  Imoen specific new NPC quests similar to the Assassinations mod ? Or thieves guild connected ?

In the final confrontation at the end of ToB Imoen could side with or against the PC. That idea is not new. But in principle you could have the complete standard ending without any modification, and then Imoen stabs the PC in the back to become the new Godess of Murder (or not, based on the complete BG2 and eventually even BG1 if played as BGT or EET). Just to show some obvious outcomes.

I'll stop doing a psycological evaluation of the interactions of purely fictional characters now. But there is obviously so much untapped power 🙂

EDIT: Looking at SoD Imoen does not have such a great time either. First she is nearly murdered and apparently the writers of SoD decided that she did not really like studying  on top. Why ? Because the PC is her childhood friend ? Or is there a more sinister reason ... ?

BTW, I really like the BG1NPC component regarding Tarneshs spellbook ! It is a very well written hint that there is more to her than BG1 makes the PC believe, and you could show some darker side in a similar way  ?

 

Edited by ckoe
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8 hours ago, ckoe said:

... immense empty canvas for Imoen in the first part of the story with only a relatively minor modification. I do not know if it would be technically possible, but one could have Imoens alignment and reactions change throughout the whole game (Planescape style) based on PC decisions and dialogue choices. The abduction/ Spellhold part ? It just fits in the way the writer wants, and it would be also possible to start with any alignment changes with Spellhold and thoughout the late game and ToB. These aligment changes could be open or hidden on the character sheet.

What's character alignment have to do with this ? Imoen in principle should be a Neutral Good character. If the player is Lawful Evil, Imoen should try to kill them in principle... but the principle should actually be decision based, not alignment. Now in BG2 - ToB, the players alignment can change based on the throne events... but it's a freaking linear one, one good, and another bad/evil choice, which should be a lot different if done correctly, and the bonuses should not really be imbalanced as they are depending on things. Looking as an example of a Paladin and see how you loose everything if you make a bad decision in there seeing how all Paladin stuff is basically alignment based on Lawful Good... unlike they are in todays D&D (5th Edition). And even still, the so called Paladin does well as long as their behaviour stays in the somewhat lawful stance, reputation doesn't go under 8. Freaking 8, that means that you have to kill peasants for that if you are high ... and then the reputation drop is not linear either, but a freaking logarithmic... as it drops by 10 if you are at 20 or 19, but by 4 if you are at 10, and by 2 if you are at 8.

 

Fun fact... in my fan fiction, the "player character" banished Imoen forever, by casting a Imprisonment on her.

Edited by Jarno Mikkola

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7 hours ago, Jarno Mikkola said:

What's character alignment have to do with this ?

True. She could (should) just  remain NG and then the PC is only in trouble if they make the "wrong" choice in the end, possibly based on a hidden variable which changes though al the game or the actual alignment of the PC. Perfectly possible.

On the other hand it might be fair if the player had some feedback via a  changig alignment of Imoen where the whole story was going. May be the PC should kill Imoen first before she kills the PC if that makes sense in the scope of the modification we are speculating about ? If it is written this way people might become a bit paranoid, at least if they already know the main story. And you are right, then PC alignment should probably also change in a sensible way during the story.

I do not know about the "best" mechanics. This depends on the writing and  the scope of the speculative modification and the technical possibilities of the engine, and I am no expert in any of these things.

Edited by ckoe

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