Unearthed Arcana present Tome & Blood: more options for arcane casters

[subtledoctor]

14 minutes ago, cdds said:

I prefer the 5E casting style only for the Arcanist class (used by the PC), while leaving all other casters to regular 2E casting, so its TnB Arcanist over the 5E casting mod for me.

That’s just fine - it’s why it’s an option.    Might & Guile also lets you give give this kind of casting to bards if you want to make them a bit more distinct. 

14 minutes ago, cdds said:

@SD: how about custom spells added by other mods, can they be used by the Arcanist?

Any spell that can be learned by a wizard can be learned by an Arcanist. 

[cdds]

Not sure about the three cantrip options for my Arcanist playthrough. Do you have a preference or recommendation for the cantrips (between options 61, 62 and 63)? 

[Mordekaie]

On 8/18/2022 at 5:50 AM, subtledoctor said:

In general, I think yes. Best to install your preferred spell tables before installing any mods that read from them and/or alter the spellcasting system. 

Does it also apply to NPC mods or kit mods ? For example we have Adrian, Brandock from @jastey or the Chaos Sorcerers from @argent77. I guess i should intall the spell tables for Mages or Sorcerers also before those mods ?

On the other side, the last spell tables installed will overwrite the previews ones, i guess.

[subtledoctor]

3 hours ago, Mordekaie said:

Does it also apply to NPC mods or kit mods ? For example we have Adrian, Brandock from @jastey or the Chaos Sorcerers from @argent77. I guess i should intall the spell tables for Mages or Sorcerers also before those mods ?

Those are fine - they don't change up the spellcasting system and don't mess around with spell slots, they are just characters/kits who use the spell tables. In this case  changing the tables afterward is okay. I would do something along the lines of:

1. NPC mods
2. most kit mods
3. change arcane+cleric spell tables
4. Chaos Sorcerer*
5. Tome & Blood
6. Faiths & Powers**
7. change druid+paladin+ranger spell tables**

* Honestly I forget what the latest advisory is with regard to the Chaos Sorcerer kit. I think it should go before TnB so that stuff like "Innate Familiars" and "Sorcerer Spell Switching" etc. can patch its CLAB table. But I haven't used it, so I'm not 100% sure about it. (Stupid of me: I've got Neera in my current party and I should have made her a Chaos Sorcerer to test things properly. Hmmm... maybe I still can! But... I really wanted a mage in that spot, not a sorcerer... Poop. I'll play around with it.)

** I know this is super annoying, but FnP overwrites divine spell tables to give paladins and rangers more and earlier spellcasting. And it put druids on the same spell tables as clerics, depending on which components you use. So if you want to use different tables for these classes, you need to overwrite these tables at a different  time than  wizard/cleric tables. WhichI know is super annoying. I haven't yet figured out how to streamline this. BUT if you don't install FnP, or  you do install FnP and you're okay with the FnP divine spell tables, then don't even worry about this and just focus on steps 1-5 above.

3 hours ago, Mordekaie said:

On the other side, the last spell tables installed will overwrite the previews ones, i guess.

Yes, but the specific issue here is that the multiclass sorcerers component and the Arcanist component can't use the game's spell tables the way most kits can. They have to recreate the spell tables with effects applied via spare proficiencies, which is complicated and once it is done, it is done. So the MultiSorc component looks at the sorcerer spell table and recreates it for multiclass sorcs; if you change that table later, then normal sorcerers (and mod NPCs and mod-added sorcerer kits) will get the benefit of the new tables, but multisorcs will still be stuck with the vanilla progression.

NOTE: that is not a critical problem! Most spell tables in CDTweaks and Klatu only differ at epic levels, and multiclass sorcs will barely even reach epic levels anyway. And you may not even bring a multiclass sorc in your party! If this goes wrong you can still have a fun game and might not even notice it. But yes the ideal is to change your spell  tables right before installing TnB.

There is a further wrinkle, however:

4 hours ago, cdds said:

Not sure about the three cantrip options for my Arcanist playthrough. Do you have a preference or recommendation for the cantrips (between options 61, 62 and 63)?

Innate Cantrips is the most conservative and boring version. Wizards get one little innate ability that they can use at will. it is minor stuff. Specialists just get  the one from their school; mages can pick any  of the eight options. It is another innate ability, and probably the least-powerful one you will accrue over the course of your game. I sound like I'm trash-talking and I kind of am... I made this as soon as I figured out how to do at-will innate abilities, and then I moved on to making much more interesting mods.

Cantrips Wands is similar to Innate Cantrips, but more interesting! (See what I did there?) Also much more versatile. Every wizard gets a wand and the wand can cast any of the eight cantrips. There are three major benefits to this one. 1) Many more things you can do - eight instead of one - which is especially useful at low levels and makes low-level mages much more fun and comfortable. 2) The cantrips are all under the 'item ability' button that looks like a backpack, they don't clutter up your innate abilities bar.  And 3) crucially for player sanity, the 'Minor Magic Missile' "cantrip" is a ranged weapon  attack instead of a spell. So you can put your mage in the back row and "set it and forget it," firing a little magic missile at enemies every round instead of have to cast a spell every freakin' six seconds. Not only that, but that particular cantrip becomes kind of like a 5E bonus action - you can cast real spells every round, and fire off a minor magic missile in between them. Also, this can be your ranged attack so you don't have to  spend proficiency points on slings. (You have to make an attack roll, but it has a +20 bonus to hit so you generally won't  miss.)

Level One Cantrips is much more interesting but involves much more serious changes to the game. Since 0 XP puts you at 1st level and you can  cast 1st-level spells even though you have no experience or training, we basically say '1st-level spells are cantrips.' And only 2nd- through 10th-level spells constitute real spellcasting. This very simply adds a Wondrous Recall effect to every 1st-level arcane spell, which means that your 1st-level arcane spell slots never run out. Some spells are nerfed to balance this: Magic Missile maxes out at 3 missiles instead of 5; Sleep becomes single-target  "Drowse" while PW:Sleep at 2nd level becomes the normal Sleep spell; if a target saves against Charm Person they get immunity to it for a while, so you can't spam it at people; that's most of it.

There are two key benefits here. 1) You never run out of spells, so you always have something to do. It may be small but it will still be a 1st-level spell,more powerful than the cantrips in the two other components. And 2) this one, alone, affects enemies as well. So enemy mages will always have something they can cast at you, too.  And stuff like Imbued Wights in IWDEE will keep blasting you with Magic Missiles until you get close and take them out. Any enemy with 1st-level spells will have infinite 1st-level spells.

Here's the wrinkle I mentioned: to balance this one, we want to limit the number of 1st-level spells  you can memorize, and to make up for the slight nerfs to 1st-level spells we want to give you more 2nd-level spellcasting. So 1st-level spell memorization slots are reduced to 3-4 max; and 2nd-level spell slots come online sooner (at 2nd level instead of 3rd) and grow to a larger number (I think 7 instead of 5, or 8 instead of 6.) It does this by... overwriting the arcane spell tables. So if you install an different spell table from CDTWeaks or Klatu before TnB, Level 1 Cantrips will overwrite it. Womp womp. EDIT - no longer true, see the next post.

SO! If you want to use Level 1 Cantrips your options are a) just use the L1Cantrips spell tables; or b) interrupt the TnB installer and install altered spell tables after L1Cantrips but  before  Multiclass Sorcerers.

Super annoying. I know. The simple fact is, all of these things were created as individual ideas - each component here is a mod unto itself, designed to work on its own. Combining them creates complications, and the burden of handling those complications fall to install order. It's just the way it is.

Though, you know, maybe I can at least change this so L1Cantrips doesn't overwrite things. Give me a few hours...

Edited August 19, 2022 by subtledoctor

[subtledoctor]

Okay, now version 0.9.35 will no longer destructively overwrite spell tables when installing the "Level 1 Cantrips" component. Now it will retain any changes you made to spell tables before TnB was installed, but will limit your 1st-level memorization slots to 3 (bards/dragon disciples) or 4 (mages/sorcerers) or 5 (specialists) and  will increase your 2nd-level memorization slots by 1.

[Endarire]

OlvynSpells changes the spell progression tables of divine casters.  Where to put that in install order with F&P in use?

[subtledoctor]

58 minutes ago, Endarire said:

OlvynSpells changes the spell progression tables of divine casters.  Where to put that in install order with F&P in use?

I dunno. Why does that mod change spell tables? Precisely what changes does it make? Is it explained in a readme or forum thread? How does it compare with, say, the CDTweaks tables?  Do you begin to see why the Olvyn mod annoys me?

Also this thread is for Tome & Blood and your question has nothing to do with Tome & Blood and will therefore only tend to bury discussion that is relevant to this mod and useful for players. Please try to put questions in threads to which the questions actually relate.

[Mordekaie]

Any idea if the 2 components from Tweaks and tricks For BG2 that deal with Familiars could be compatible with Tome&Blood ?

https://github.com/BGforgeNet/bg2-tweaks-and-tricks/blob/master/docs/familiars.md#resilient-familiars

[subtledoctor]

2 hours ago, Mordekaie said:

Any idea if the 2 components from Tweaks and tricks For BG2 that deal with Familiars could be compatible with Tome&Blood ?

https://github.com/BGforgeNet/bg2-tweaks-and-tricks/blob/master/docs/familiars.md#resilient-familiars

“Resilient Familiars” is totally compatible. (And so simple and sensible that I should really apply it by default with my mod.)

Oloriniel is currently playing with TnB familiars and “Smarter Familiars,” and had a lot of problems. TnB changes the familiar dialogues to make sure your alignment does not interfere with the familiar entering and leaving your pack; TnT Smarter Familiars seems to overwrite those dialogues and undoes the necessary TnB changes. As yet I am not sure how to make them compatible. 

[Endarire]

For T&B's spell level 1 cantrips, may we get an install option for rebalanced level 1 spells (nerfed magic missile, sleep, etc.) versus normal power spells?  Nerfed magic missile prevented me from wanting to install this, even though it was generally more advantageous.

[cdds]

In Scales of Balance there are three different options for Ability Score-Based Bonus Spells:

1. (only) SoB component 201 --> only memorization slots for 5E casters
2. SoB components 201 plus 2013 --> only casting slots for 5E casters
3. SoB components 201 plus 2012 --> memorization slots and casting slots for 5E casters

Like which of these three SoB options does Tome & Blood component 95 behave? If i want a specific option i assume its best to ditch T&B 95 and go with the SoB implentation instead?

Bonus question: if i customize the Arcanist casts-per-day table before installing T&B, will ability bonus spells (from either T&B or SoB) overwrite my custom Arcanist table?

Edited August 22, 2022 by cdds

[subtledoctor]

3 hours ago, cdds said:

Like which of these three SoB options does Tome & Blood component 95 behave? If i want a specific option i assume its best to ditch T&B 95 and go with the SoB implentation instead?

TnB component #95 is deprecated now, it doesn't work. Just use the components in SoB.

3 hours ago, cdds said:

Bonus question: if i customize the Arcanist casts-per-day table before installing T&B, will ability bonus spells (from either T&B or SoB) overwrite my custom Arcanist table?

That will work fine, nothing will be overwritten. I assume you see which table you need to modify for this? Tomeandblood/data/arcanist/d5cstarc.2da.

[subtledoctor]

On 8/21/2022 at 2:46 PM, Endarire said:

For T&B's spell level 1 cantrips, may we get an install option for rebalanced level 1 spells (nerfed magic missile, sleep, etc.) versus normal power spells?  Nerfed magic missile prevented me from wanting to install this

Nope, It is what it is. I originally designed this in tandem with the tweak which now lives in SD's Random Tweaks, changing Agannazar's Scorcher into Melf's Fiery Missiles, which is like the original Magic Missile but with extra fire damage on top. Between the slightly nerfed but infinite-cast 1st-level MM, and the powered-up 2nd-level MM (and remember you get extra 2nd-level slots for this reason), you will have plenty of missiles to cast at people.

Bonus: if you use the tweak to change Sunfire into Missile Storm and you have Level 1 Cantrips installed, Missile Storm will recognize that MM was nerfed and cast three of them instead of two.

Although... generally SDRT will be installed before TnB... in which case it won't recognize it. So I have to add code to TnB to power up Missile Storm. Okay, I'll get on that soon.

[cdds]

5 hours ago, subtledoctor said:

That will work fine, nothing will be overwritten. I assume you see which table you need to modify for this?

Cool, thanks. I customized the table before for a BG1 run, just didn't know how it interacts with the ability bonus spells.

By the way, is there any particular reason why your mods are not hosted as "official" G3 mods with links in the download section, etc.? You have what is likely the most comprehensive set of systems tweaks and additions in all of IE modding (plus active maintenance and support), but somehow they are "hidden away" in the misc mods forum...

Edited August 23, 2022 by cdds

[Guest Hallz123]

Hello subtledoctor (sorry to bother you), the acid dragon disciple gets only 25% acid resistance instead 50%. Tested in ToB. Others dragon disciples gets the correct resistances. Thanks.