To EET or not to EET?

[Isewein]

Dear all,

'Tis the season and I have failed my Will Save miserably, so I am now in the process of setting up another hibernal Baldur's Gate playthrough. Once more this brings up the question of whether the advantages of EET outweigh the negatives. In the old days of BGT, the decision was basically a no-brainer, but with the EEs the most obvious benefits of using a Trilogy mod have been made redundant. Since I am terrible at making decisions without overly lengthy deliberation, I figured I might as well share my thought process for the benefit of others sitting on the fence. Please feel free to amend your own thoughts to this list, it might become a nice community resource to have after all.

Pros

-Continuous Journal

-NPC continuity: stat boni on NPCs carry over, as do learned spells

-ToB Fate Spirit summons continous NPCs

-spell mods carry over; there might be problems when transitioning from SoD to BG2 using modded spells otherwise?

-EET-exclusive mods: The Cowled Menace, DSotSC v4 (why?), LCA Corwin, EET Tweaks

Cons

-most of the promise of a continuous world remains theoretical in nature, there is basically no reason to revisit any BG1 areas in the later portion of the game (yet)

-separate game installs offer more flexibility in addressing bugs and including newly released content

-NPC continuity: this could be seen as a negative too, as characters fall far behind in levels between games if you do not include them in the party at all times, or indeed won't appear at all (e.g. Minsc in SoD if Dynaheir was killed)

-EET-incompatible mods: NPC Strongholds (most essential; patch by Cirosan with dubious compatibility?), Oversight, Ayden Project (?), Level One NPCs (can be replicated with NPC_EE), Eve of War (unfinished anyway), Black Hearts (somewhat, works with issues), Jan's Extended Quest, Homeward Bound (these two might be natively compatible after all as per @Gwendolyne, tbc), Aurora's Shoes (patch courtesy of Austin), SoD Dialogue Banters, Infinity Sounds, Classic UI Mods (?)

 

*updated March 24

Edited March 11 by Isewein

[jastey]

40 minutes ago, Isewein said:

DSotSC v4 (why?)

If that means "why is this EET exclusive" the answer is: the EET version si also for BGT, and there is another DSotSC by Red Carnelian for BG:EE.

I'd also throw in that due o the 2.6 update, it's well likely that some so far very stable mods cause problems in 2.6 noone expected (not even the mod author because of lacking changelog info). I think I'd rather go for a non-EET playthrough if I'd want to make sure I'll actually reach ToB currently. It's a thought at least. On the other hand, if noone plays them we won't learn about potential incompatibilities.

[Guest Morgoth]

Really no (gameplay) point using EET. Unless you want to cheese.

The only advantage is that you install mods once.

Is that enough of an advantage, when you can have three different games, with their own set of mods and if something doesn't work the issue is only present in one of three games? You can also playtest better.

 

[jastey]

27 minutes ago, Guest Morgoth said:

The only advantage is that you install mods once.

That's definitely not the only advantage of EET. If you are absolutely not interested in continuity of any sort, then that might be the only advantage.

[Greenhorn]

1 hour ago, Isewein said:

,'Tis the season and I have failed my Will Save miserably, so I am now in the process of setting up another hibernal Baldur's Gate playthrough. 

You too?  Without too much elaboration I would go with Melkor here, if only to save yourself some time if you intend to install whole bunch of mods which is my style usually, you know, play BG EE as soon as possible and simultaneously building second part at your leisure. I was tempted to try EET, but I gave up since I didn't even properly finished BG EE and I was afraid I wouldn't finish EET install till New year. Fortunately my will save didn't betrayed me when I even briefly considered to use BWS like I used to for my Godzilla sized old BGT installs back in older days.   

[Isewein]

2 hours ago, jastey said:

If that means "why is this EET exclusive" the answer is: the EET version si also for BGT, and there is another DSotSC by Red Carnelian for BG:EE.

I'd also throw in that due o the 2.6 update, it's well likely that some so far very stable mods cause problems in 2.6 noone expected (not even the mod author because of lacking changelog info). I think I'd rather go for a non-EET playthrough if I'd want to make sure I'll actually reach ToB currently. It's a thought at least. On the other hand, if noone plays them we won't learn about potential incompatibilities.

It just surprised me because usually incompatibility goes the other way - and I'm aware there is another DSotSC version, but I think that one is without your balance improvements, which are pretty much what made NTotSC enjoyable for me in the first place, so I'd assume it's rather similar with DSotSC.

As for the update, thanks for the warning. Do you think this would apply similarly to using a heavily modded EE install or to EET specifically? As always, major respect to you guys for working through the issues without even the benefit of a changelog.

Greenhorn raises a good point I hadn't thought of - separate game installs are by nature more flexible and therefore likely more robust. I'll include that in the list. Although I do somehow miss those endless nights spent watching a BWP WeiDU console with apprehension, waiting with clenched teeth for the inevitable error message..  

[Greenhorn]

I do remember those nights and that inevitable moment killed me every time.  But just one minor correction @Isewein about pros: EET Tweaks are compatible with many more platforms than just EET, I even used this mod on TUTU. 

[jastey]

8 hours ago, Isewein said:

Do you think this would apply similarly to using a heavily modded EE install or to EET specifically?

I just think that it would have more impact on an EET playthrough just because if you hit a wall there, BGII will be lost whereas if you hit a wall with separate games, it's easier to dabble with the installed mods for one (because it's not as many and like @Greenhorn more flexible) and for two, you could still "continue" a BGII game that's all fresh and shiny.

8 hours ago, Isewein said:

It just surprised me because usually incompatibility goes the other way - and I'm aware there is another DSotSC version, but I think that one is without your balance improvements, which are pretty much what made NTotSC enjoyable for me in the first place, so I'd assume it's rather similar with DSotSC.

Thanks for the kind words (although the balance improvements for NTotSC weren't added by me, I revised the plotholes and missing journal system). The problem is that the BGT/EET version of DSotSC (as NTotSC was, too) was a BGT mod, meaning it uses BGII ressources. (Even then it was a different version than the BG:EE one). Making it EET compatible was simple enough, but for replacing the BGII ressources, things are not that easy. I spent 8 weeks full time revising NTotSC and making it independent on BGII ressources (of which some are hidden inside the area files, for example: monster spawns, items inside containers, etcpp). I will not do this again. Plus, there is the BG:EE version of DSotSC, so I figured it would also be a bit disrespectful to just pump up the BGT/EET one to include BG:EE, too. I asked @Red Carnelian once whether there would be interest in combining the versions, but got no answer. And as I said, this is of absolutely no high importance to me, because frankly, there is a lot of other things that would need improvement in this mod, and I won't do it. So much for my perspective on this, sorry for the long read.

 

[Graion Dilach]

I say EET because at long install orders only that ensures consistency between BG1 and BG2, but my restartitis even prevents reaching BG2, so my opinion might not even matter.

And yeah, I know DSotSC-BGT/EET still needs polish (I'd like to go through the spells at one point to review compatibility with the 2.6 spell logic changes and deduplicate the IWD spells if they were imported already via IWDification's/SCS's respective components) but that one already has the benefit of being in GH to be able to accept thirdparty fixes which the EE version is less likely.

[Greenhorn]

37 minutes ago, Graion Dilach said:

 but my restartitis even prevents reaching BG2, 

I hear you bro. 

[Endarire]

Roxanne inspired me by helping me learn about EET and jastey corrected me that "EET" is a mod and a framework, not necessarily Roxanne's install tool.

For me, a major plus for EET is the lack of pressure once installed.  I don't need to be concerned about missing something because I can return to it.  I prefer the continuity as well.

[subtledoctor]

5 hours ago, Graion Dilach said:

but my restartitis even prevents reaching BG2

But EET lets you start a new campaign from the beginning of SoA, right? (Or SoD, or ToB?) So if you get a nice stable install it should - theoretically - let you play any of the games on their own terms, without modding them separately. 

There are aspects of EET that I like, theoretically at least. Other stuff I don’t love - how NPC XP is handled, having areas from different campaigns available  (IMO it should be off by default), making changes to the Find Familiar spell of all things. I’d love it if EET kept as close as possible to being exactly like its constituent games, all in one place. And then enabled options like areas being available, continuous NPCs, etc. 

Meantime EET is 2.6-only, but the iOS games are still stuck on 2.5. So I can’t satisfy Jarno’s demands and make a definitive iOS EET install yet. 

Edited October 9, 2021 by subtledoctor

[Graion Dilach]

1 hour ago, subtledoctor said:

But EET lets you start a new campaign from the beginning of SoA, right? (Or SoD, or ToB?) So if you get s nice stable install it should - theoretically - let you play any of the games on their own terms, without modding them separately. 

Exactly. That thought is really motivating in my head.

1 hour ago, subtledoctor said:

having areas from different campaigns available  (IMO it should be off by default)

It is "off" by default though. If you start your game in say, BG2, you can't enter to Nashkel (EET creates a path between Nashkel and Athkatla to allow revisiting) to revisit BG1 or SoD. If you start in ToB you can't go back to anywhere beyond Watcher's Keep. You can only revisit a game area if you have finished the primary campaign associated with it. I think this actually works better than explicit switches.

Edited October 9, 2021 by Graion Dilach

[jastey]

On 10/9/2021 at 3:16 PM, subtledoctor said:

But EET lets you start a new campaign from the beginning of SoA, right? (Or SoD, or ToB?) So if you get a nice stable install it should - theoretically - let you play any of the games on their own terms, without modding them separately.

Oh, that is true. I didn't think of that when posting above.

Morgoth: with that in mind, your point about less modding/having to install mods only once gets more leverage.

[Endarire]

Old EET versions are 2.5 compatible.  The newest EET versions are 2.6 only.