Skills and Abilities Mod

[Lurker]

@morpheus562 With your HLAs to increase stats (GREAT STR/DEX/CON/...), why did you chose to apply them appearing like increases from items, meaning that the increased stat will show up in green in the character record? I know that, if I remember correctly, the base game also sometimes does this (Hell trials / Tears of Bhaal come to mind? Where it could be justified by assuming those effects get removed when the same PC is used again in a new game; but then, the permanent decrease of a stat from one of the dream sequences appears like a dick move in comparison); I also had this happen via some potion once, but don't remember the details.

I never liked that particular approach, because it somehow feels temporary, and I'd preferred that a permanent increase in a stat does actually increase the base stat, instead of adding an effect (just guessing, I haven't really checked how you or the other case(s) implement the increase technically). The "colored" increase should IMHO be exclusive to items, for consistency; a criticism that is also very much directed at the base game.

This issue lately came to my mind again when I used both your HLAs and the Manual of War, the latter applying the "non-colored" increase to a stat.

[morpheus562]

47 minutes ago, Lurker said:

@morpheus562 With your HLAs to increase stats (GREAT STR/DEX/CON/...), why did you chose to apply them appearing like increases from items, meaning that the increased stat will show up in green in the character record? I know that, if I remember correctly, the base game also sometimes does this (Hell trials / Tears of Bhaal come to mind? Where it could be justified by assuming those effects get removed when the same PC is used again in a new game; but then, the permanent decrease of a stat from one of the dream sequences appears like a dick move in comparison); I also had this happen via some potion once, but don't remember the details.

I never liked that particular approach, because it somehow feels temporary, and I'd preferred that a permanent increase in a stat does actually increase the base stat, instead of adding an effect (just guessing, I haven't really checked how you or the other case(s) implement the increase technically). The "colored" increase should IMHO be exclusive to items, for consistency; a criticism that is also very much directed at the base game.

This issue lately came to my mind again when I used both your HLAs and the Manual of War, the latter applying the "non-colored" increase to a stat.

It just came down to timing mode used. I had timing mode 9 for Instant/Permanent while the game uses timing mode 1 for Instant/Permanent until death. I typically avoid timing mode 1 because it goes away if a character dies; however, the IESDP shows this to not be the case with the update actually changing the base ability score becoming irrevocable. Long story short, I updated the timing modes for the stat increases so it will show as permanent. This is now part of the next release.

[Lurker]

33 minutes ago, morpheus562 said:

This is now part of the next release.

This is good news, very much appreciated.

[jmerry]

Particularly with stat increases, that's a big deal. An increment with timing mode 1 irrevocably changes the base stat, while an increment with timing mode 9 is a permanent effect modifying the base stat.

An effect that might be removed, like the Dragon Disciple kit's CON bonus, needs to use timing mode 9. (Kit abilities are removed when the character leaves the party and reapplied when they rejoin)

An effect that's meant to simply improve the base stat permanently with no chance of removal, like the CON tome, should use timing mode 1.

Got it wrong? Don't feel too bad; so did Beamdog when they programmed Wilson's strength bonus.

[herien_0]

I'm enjoying this mod very much. It makes late-game BG2 feel more dynamic as previously most non-caster level-ups would feel very lackluster. I've used it throughout BG1 and am almost done with BG2 using it. I think it does lower the difficulty curve by quite a bit (relative to my previous playthroughs on SCS Insane difficulty), but that may also be due to me foolishly installing TotLM mod in this playthrough as well, with its full exp setting, which completely screwed up my exp curve for BG2. I should do another BG2 playthrough with that corrected for.

I would also like to mention that anyone using the Made In Heaven Spell mod should be forewarned that its epic spell selection has a minor redundancy with this mod. "Divine Insight"  from MiH is available to Clerics and can be taken multiple times. It provides a +1 bonus to Wisdom in addition to +5% Magic Resistance which seems very OP and completely overshadows the "Great Wisdom" HLA in this mod. I'd avoid installing the Epic Spellpack portion of MiH altogether for now as it's still in beta and many of the HLA descriptions aren't explained or accounted for.

Edited October 30, 2023 by herien_0

[Connelly]

Something curious about the HLA for IWD&LeUI component. I'm playing with the IWD NPC pack for reference, and all NPCs started getting all relevant HLAs. The paladin gets warrior/pally/S&A HLAs, the hunter/cleric gets warrior/druid/S&A HLAs, the thief/fighter gets warrior/thief/S&A HLAs, the bard gets thief/bard/S&A HLAs..

Then, the fighter NPC, whom I've installed as a berserker then dualed as a druid, is getting druid/S&A HLAs, which is the expected behavior. But the single player character I've created as a generic fighter then dualed to mage is only getting wizard HLAs, and not the ones from S&A.

I quickly checked starting a new game with the default party; of those NPCs who can dual (the berserker and the mage) they can only dual to thief, but they do get the expected full HLA selection. Then created two more characters, a fighter and a thief with max stats. After dualed to mage, again, they only get mage HLAs, no S&A ones. Haven't tried with dualing to ranger or cleric.

[morpheus562]

19 minutes ago, Connelly said:

Something curious about the HLA for IWD&LeUI component. I'm playing with the IWD NPC pack for reference, and all NPCs started getting all relevant HLAs. The paladin gets warrior/pally/S&A HLAs, the hunter/cleric gets warrior/druid/S&A HLAs, the thief/fighter gets warrior/thief/S&A HLAs, the bard gets thief/bard/S&A HLAs..

Then, the fighter NPC, whom I've installed as a berserker then dualed as a druid, is getting druid/S&A HLAs, which is the expected behavior. But the single player character I've created as a generic fighter then dualed to mage is only getting wizard HLAs, and not the ones from S&A.

I quickly checked starting a new game with the default party; of those NPCs who can dual (the berserker and the mage) they can only dual to thief, but they do get the expected full HLA selection. Then created two more characters, a fighter and a thief with max stats. After dualed to mage, again, they only get mage HLAs, no S&A ones. Haven't tried with dualing to ranger or cleric.

I'm guessing you have something going on with your mod setup that alters the mage HLA table. Possibly another kit mod or rules tweak. I just tested on my modded game and it is behaving as desired.

[Connelly]

Right, I tried now with a pure mage and it doesn't get the S&A HLAs, so it's not dualing per se. Can't say how this might be an incompatibility, this setup is mostly made out of content mods, and there's not a lot touching kits and spells other than tweaks and vanilla kits overhauls, really nothing for HLA's except S&A. .

I think luma0.2da is the mage HLA table file, and MO#HLAxx the S&A HLAs? I don't see anything wrong with it compared to others (except it has about 145 lines with nothing else than asterisks. Nothing changes if I trim it down), and no mod has modified it after S&A introduces it. Looks like this:

Spoiler

2DA                V1.0
*
                   ABILITY            ICON               STRREF             MIN_LEV            MAX_LEVEL          NUM_ALLOWED        PREREQUISITE       EXCLUDED_BY        ALIGNMENT_RESTRICT
1                  AP_SPCL928         *                  *                  1                  99                 1                  *                  *                  *
2                  AP_SPCL929         *                  *                  1                  99                 1                  AP_SPCL928         *                  *
3                  AP_SPCL930         *                  *                  1                  99                 1                  AP_SPCL929         *                  *
4                  GA_SPWI920         *                  *                  1                  99                 1                  *                  *                  *
5                  GA_SPWI921         *                  *                  1                  99                 1                  *                  *                  *
6                  GA_SPWI922         *                  *                  1                  99                 1                  *                  *                  *
7                  GA_SPWI923         *                  *                  1                  99                 1                  *                  GA_SPWI924         ALL_EVIL
8                  GA_SPWI924         *                  *                  1                  99                 1                  *                  GA_SPWI923         ALL_GOOD
9                  GA_SPWI925         *                  *                  1                  99                 1                  *                  *                  *
1                  GA_SPWI908         *                  *                  1                  99                 1                  *                  *                  *
10                 AP_MO#HLA01        *                  *                  1                  99                 5                  *                  *                  *
11                 AP_MO#HLA02        *                  *                  1                  99                 1                  *                  *                  *
12                 AP_MO#HLA03        *                  *                  1                  99                 1                  *                  *                  *
13                 AP_MO#HLA04        *                  *                  1                  99                 1                  *                  *                  *
14                 AP_MO#HLA05        *                  *                  1                  99                 1                  *                  *                  *
15                 AP_MO#HLA06        *                  *                  1                  99                 1                  *                  *                  *
16                 AP_MO#HLA09        *                  *                  1                  99                 5                  *                  *                  *
17                 AP_MO#HLA10        *                  *                  1                  99                 5                  *                  *                  *
18                 AP_MO#HLA11        *                  *                  1                  99                 5                  *                  *                  *
19                 AP_MO#HLA12        *                  *                  1                  99                 5                  *                  *                  *
20                 AP_MO#HLA13        *                  *                  1                  99                 5                  *                  *                  *
21                 AP_MO#HLA14        *                  *                  1                  99                 5                  *                  *                  *
22                 *                  *                  *                  *                  *                  *                  *                  *                  *

Unless I'm wrong in luma0.2da being the right file to look for, it seems like the S&A HLAs should show up but for some reason don't? I'm confused.

Wait, hold on a second. The IESDP says that luabbr.2da should list Ma0 as the mage abreviation, but mine has d5_1. There's only a lud5_1.2da file and... bingo.

Spoiler

                   ABILITY            ICON               STRREF             MIN_LEV            MAX_LEVEL          NUM_ALLOWED        PREREQUISITE       EXCLUDED_BY        ALIGNMENT_RESTRICT
1                  AP_SPCL928         *                  *                  1                  99                 1                  *                  *                  *
2                  AP_SPCL929         *                  *                  1                  99                 1                  AP_SPCL928         *                  *
3                  AP_SPCL930         *                  *                  1                  99                 1                  AP_SPCL929         *                  *
4                  GA_SPWI920         *                  *                  1                  99                 1                  *                  *                  *
5                  GA_SPWI921         *                  *                  1                  99                 1                  *                  *                  *
6                  GA_SPWI922         *                  *                  1                  99                 1                  *                  *                  *
7                  GA_SPWI923         *                  *                  1                  99                 1                  *                  GA_SPWI924         ALL_EVIL
8                  GA_SPWI924         *                  *                  1                  99                 1                  *                  GA_SPWI923         ALL_GOOD
9                  GA_SPWI925         *                  *                  1                  99                 1                  *                  *                  *
1                  GA_SPWI908         *                  *                  1                  99                 1                  *                  *                  *
10                 *                  *                  *                  *                  *                  *                  *                  *                  *

No MO#HLAxx references. And it doesn't look like it even really changes the vanilla lines.

Searching for backups of luabbr, plenty of mods touch it, but it only changes the mage abbreviation after it goes through Tome & Blood's Revised Metamagic -> Innate metamagic, learned from scrolls ONLY (none for sorcerers). That's why mages aren't getting the S&A HLAs, S&A is doing what it should but its changes aren't being read because T&B is making the game use a new file because... reasons?  @subtledoctor , may we please get a word on this?

Edited November 3, 2023 by Connelly

[morpheus562]

9 minutes ago, Connelly said:

Right, I tried now with a pure mage and it doesn't get the S&A HLAs, so it's not dualing per se. Can't say how this might be an incompatibility, this setup is mostly made out of content mods, and there's not a lot touching kits and spells other than tweaks and vanilla kits overhauls, really nothing for HLA's except S&A. .

I think luma0.2da is the mage HLA table file, and MO#HLAxx the S&A HLAs? I don't see anything wrong with it compared to others (except it has about 145 lines with nothing else than asterisks. Nothing changes if I trim it down), and no mod has modified it after S&A introduces it. Looks like this:

  Reveal hidden contents

2DA                V1.0
*
                   ABILITY            ICON               STRREF             MIN_LEV            MAX_LEVEL          NUM_ALLOWED        PREREQUISITE       EXCLUDED_BY        ALIGNMENT_RESTRICT
1                  AP_SPCL928         *                  *                  1                  99                 1                  *                  *                  *
2                  AP_SPCL929         *                  *                  1                  99                 1                  AP_SPCL928         *                  *
3                  AP_SPCL930         *                  *                  1                  99                 1                  AP_SPCL929         *                  *
4                  GA_SPWI920         *                  *                  1                  99                 1                  *                  *                  *
5                  GA_SPWI921         *                  *                  1                  99                 1                  *                  *                  *
6                  GA_SPWI922         *                  *                  1                  99                 1                  *                  *                  *
7                  GA_SPWI923         *                  *                  1                  99                 1                  *                  GA_SPWI924         ALL_EVIL
8                  GA_SPWI924         *                  *                  1                  99                 1                  *                  GA_SPWI923         ALL_GOOD
9                  GA_SPWI925         *                  *                  1                  99                 1                  *                  *                  *
1                  GA_SPWI908         *                  *                  1                  99                 1                  *                  *                  *
10                 AP_MO#HLA01        *                  *                  1                  99                 5                  *                  *                  *
11                 AP_MO#HLA02        *                  *                  1                  99                 1                  *                  *                  *
12                 AP_MO#HLA03        *                  *                  1                  99                 1                  *                  *                  *
13                 AP_MO#HLA04        *                  *                  1                  99                 1                  *                  *                  *
14                 AP_MO#HLA05        *                  *                  1                  99                 1                  *                  *                  *
15                 AP_MO#HLA06        *                  *                  1                  99                 1                  *                  *                  *
16                 AP_MO#HLA09        *                  *                  1                  99                 5                  *                  *                  *
17                 AP_MO#HLA10        *                  *                  1                  99                 5                  *                  *                  *
18                 AP_MO#HLA11        *                  *                  1                  99                 5                  *                  *                  *
19                 AP_MO#HLA12        *                  *                  1                  99                 5                  *                  *                  *
20                 AP_MO#HLA13        *                  *                  1                  99                 5                  *                  *                  *
21                 AP_MO#HLA14        *                  *                  1                  99                 5                  *                  *                  *
22                 *                  *                  *                  *                  *                  *                  *                  *                  *

Unless I'm wrong in luma0.2da being the right file to look for, it seems like the S&A HLAs should show up but for some reason don't? I'm confused.

Wait, hold on a second. The IESDP says that luabbr.2da should list Ma0 as the mage abreviation, but mine has d5_1. There's only a lud5_1.2da file and... bingo.

  Reveal hidden contents

                   ABILITY            ICON               STRREF             MIN_LEV            MAX_LEVEL          NUM_ALLOWED        PREREQUISITE       EXCLUDED_BY        ALIGNMENT_RESTRICT
1                  AP_SPCL928         *                  *                  1                  99                 1                  *                  *                  *
2                  AP_SPCL929         *                  *                  1                  99                 1                  AP_SPCL928         *                  *
3                  AP_SPCL930         *                  *                  1                  99                 1                  AP_SPCL929         *                  *
4                  GA_SPWI920         *                  *                  1                  99                 1                  *                  *                  *
5                  GA_SPWI921         *                  *                  1                  99                 1                  *                  *                  *
6                  GA_SPWI922         *                  *                  1                  99                 1                  *                  *                  *
7                  GA_SPWI923         *                  *                  1                  99                 1                  *                  GA_SPWI924         ALL_EVIL
8                  GA_SPWI924         *                  *                  1                  99                 1                  *                  GA_SPWI923         ALL_GOOD
9                  GA_SPWI925         *                  *                  1                  99                 1                  *                  *                  *
1                  GA_SPWI908         *                  *                  1                  99                 1                  *                  *                  *
10                 *                  *                  *                  *                  *                  *                  *                  *                  *

No MO#HLAxx references. And it doesn't look like it even really changes the vanilla lines.

Searching for backups of luabbr, plenty of mods touch it, but it only changes the mage abbreviation after it goes through Tome & Blood's Revised Metamagic -> Innate metamagic, learned from scrolls ONLY (none for sorcerers). That's why mages aren't getting the S&A HLAs, T&B is making the game use a new file because... reasons? @subtledoctor , may we get a word on this?

What is your mod install order? Do you have skills and abilities installed after tome and blood? I am guessing this is simply a case of mods being installed out of order.

Edited November 3, 2023 by morpheus562

[Connelly]

Yeah, S&A is installed after T&B, as my understanding is that T&B goes among kits and S&A among tweaks after SCS due to changes to proficiencies.

I manually I copied the table from luma0 into lud5_1.2da, and now the game is offering mages the S&A HLAs.

Edited November 3, 2023 by Connelly

[morpheus562]

Then that's something on my end that I need to look at and see what is going on.

[morpheus562]

29 minutes ago, Connelly said:

Yeah, S&A is installed after T&B, as my understanding is that T&B goes among kits and S&A among tweaks after SCS due to changes to proficiencies.

I manually I copied the table from luma0 into lud5_1.2da, and now the game is offering mages the S&A HLAs.

Going through my code and it should account and not have an issue. Can you please provide me your weidu log?

[Connelly]

Here.

WeiDU.log

[morpheus562]

23 minutes ago, Connelly said:

Here.

WeiDU.log 26.84 kB · 0 downloads

What is "~D5_EXTRA_CANTRIPS_FIX/D5_EXTRA_CANTRIPS_FIX.TP2~ #0 #0 // fix extra cantrips" that comes after Skills and Abilities? Does that alter the hla tables?

[Connelly]

It's a hotfix subtledoctor made for an issue with his cantrips in a previous version of his Spell Tweaks. I just installed it a few hours ago, but our problem was already there before that, and I'd be pretty surprised if it alters the HLA tables in any way.

Edited November 3, 2023 by Connelly