Skills and Abilities Mod

[ZenSojourner]

No jeeps, HUMVs, ships, planes, trains then?  No base camp? No mess tent? You did not go schlepping all over the landscape totally without support.  Thank dog for the support you DID have, even if you didn't ALWAYS have it every step of the way.

And belts of giant strength and EE Keeper are what keeps a game from being anything like real life, plus mods like the ones you have written.  Not to mention magic fireballs that shoot out your fingertips.  Games are not real life, if they were, who would ever play them?  Wanting a bit of support for long distance movement is MORE, not less, realistic.  I liked the donkey.  You don't have to, nor to agree with my reasons for liking it.  There's a reason our distant ancestors went to all the trouble of domesticating animals to help them do their work and move around.

And this has started acting up (can't change the lore value again) even if I leave NPC-EE out of the equation.  I can't figure out what's going on.  This last time I added EVERY component of Skills and Abilities, but no NPC-EE.  Maybe there's something more generic going on, not just NPC-EE.

Every iteration I completely uninstall the whole thing and start over.  Right now I'm back to a vanilla install, I'll retest every step of the way with each mod installed to see if I can figure out where I'm losing the ability to change lore.  Leaving it to just a partial install of Skills and Abilities apparently doesn't trigger the problem, it was pretty consistently OK until I installed all components.

I've played this through totally modless several times.  Wanting Skills & Abilities is a story-telling thing for me, wanting lore modifications is a convenience thing.

Gotta go out and weed whack the yard before it hits 100F today.  It's been over 100F almost every day since April here, and I work outside in it anyway.  Thank dog for AC breaks and cold lemonade out of a fridge, LOL!  AC was not a thing when I was growing up, and growing and canning your own food was still common practice (which is mostly what has me out in the yard for hours every single day).  We did have fridges though.  Though not everybody had electrical power to run one.

[morpheus562]

Remove

Edited Friday at 05:58 PM by morpheus562

[ZenSojourner]

There is something weird going on that precludes being able to modify the lore parameter (and possibly other things I haven't stumbled across).  At first I thought it was just in NPC-EE, but a full install of Skills and Abilities also causes this.

Or, at least, it doesn't show up until after a full install of Skills and Abilities, or an installation of both (parts) of S&A and NPC-EE.

Edited August 22, 2023 by ZenSojourner

[morpheus562]

Remove

Edited Friday at 05:58 PM by morpheus562

[ZenSojourner]

45 minutes ago, morpheus562 said:

I've encountered the same thing with lore on installs without Skills and Abilities. Probably an engine thing. You can assign an effect to a character (opcode 21) if you want to alter their lore value. I do this in a roundabout way with the first pip in Spellcraft.

This doesn't happen when I install NPC-EE by itself (I just tried that).  I suspect its some kind of systemic thing that isn't specific to either mod but an interaction with something that is otherwise innocuous.  Modding can have all sorts of issues, especially with an old game like this that was never intended to be modded (EE updates notwithstanding).

Would you mind telling me how to assign an effect via "opcode 21" to get around this?  I found a list of opcodes that defines opcode 21 :

#21 (0x15) Stat: Lore Modifier Variants: IWD2
Parameter #1: Statistic Modifier
Parameter #2: Type

Description:

Applies the modifier value specified by the Statistic Modifier field in the style specified by the Type field.
Known values for Type are:

• 0 ⟶ Cumulative Modifier: Lore = Lore + 'Statistic Modifier' value
• 1 ⟶ Flat Value Modifier: Lore = 'Statistic Modifier' value
• 2 ⟶ Percentage Modifier: Lore = (Lore * 'Statistic Modifier' value) / 100

Statistic Modifier can be positive or negative.

The effect modifies LORE.

and looking at that I would guess that this is the mechanism both EE Keeper and Near Infinity use to make the change, but the mechanism through either program gets broken somehow.  How would I apply this directly?  How can I fix this without either EE Keeper or Near Infinity, or at least without going through the lore parameter settings (for NI) or the effects tab (for EEK)? (BTW using type 1 in EE Keeper doesn't work, it is still additive rather than replacing, but that's probably beside the point.)

I'm going to try installing S&A AFTER NPC-EE (since I have that installed first now) just to see what happens.  Probably won't help but what the hey.

Thanks for your help.

Edited August 22, 2023 by ZenSojourner

[subtledoctor]

FWIW I vaguely recall the Lore opcode does not work with certain timing modes. (But don’t quote me on that.)

[ZenSojourner]

Sorry, but what is a timing mode? 

[morpheus562]

Remove

Edited Friday at 05:58 PM by morpheus562

[ZenSojourner]

@morpheus562

I was guessing that might be it after looking at EE Keeper effects - it is set to Instant, Permanent, whatever that translates to.  But there is also a field called "time" that I have no idea what it is meant for.

However it seems to be something else that is blocking Lore modifications in both NI and EE Keeper, given that both work until something happens in the installing of either or both S&A and/or NPC-EE that blocks or overrides (effectively erases) changes made through either program.  You can make the changes but as soon as the file is opened in BGEE the changes disappear.  Save the game after just opening the save and look with either save editor and the changes you made are gone.

I guess this is a huge big ugly deal.  Doesn't seem like it should be but somehow it is.  *sigh*.  Sorry.

[subtledoctor]

Also, don’t have EEKeeper open and/or have BGEE open and/or run mod installers at the same time. Only one thing can modify the game files at a time; trying to run one while another program has already accessed the files is a recipe for failure or disaster. 

Honestly this sounds like a poor test/install environment. Or using a timing mode that doesn’t work. 

Try something besides Lore. And dump EEKeeper. I don’t think this has anything to do with the mods. 

[ZenSojourner]

37 minutes ago, subtledoctor said:

Also, don’t have EEKeeper open and/or have BGEE open and/or run mod installers at the same time. Only one thing can modify the game files at a time; trying to run one while another program has already accessed the files is a recipe for failure or disaster. 

I don't.  I have one and only one program open at a time.  I'm a software engineer, or I was.  I know how these things work.

I also install one and only one program at a time.  There is a listing of the install process a bit up the line.

37 minutes ago, subtledoctor said:

Honestly this sounds like a poor test/install environment. Or using a timing mode that doesn’t work. 

Can't speak to the timing mode thing as the timing mode doesn't change, I don't see anywhere to set that in NI but its always "Instant, Permanent" in EE Keeper.  If its timing mode set somewhere else that causes the issue I of course have no control over that. The fact is that I can change lore values BEFORE installing these 2 mods, and after installation it sometimes stops working without changing anything about what is done in the save editors.  Same settings, works before, doesn't work after.

Its neither a "poor" testing nor a "poor" install environment.  I do one thing at a time.

When testing I start with a fresh install and I create all new save files/characters for each test run.  I install one mod at a time, as listed above.  Create new game files after each mod is installed and see if changes to lore still work.  Its a painstaking process.  I use DLC Merger first, then EE Extender, then Skills and Abilities, then NPC-EE.  Installing NPC-EE without S&A does not (or has not so far) caused the error.  Installing it after S&A always does. Installing S&A (partial components) after NPC-EE did trigger the error.

I should also say, on at least some test runs (not sure now if there were any exceptions, I've run this through so many times now) the error doesn't occur until after Imoen appears with the change class tome in her inventory.  You don't have to actually open it for it to happen.  However I don't think its the "fault" specifically of NPC-EE, it happens with just S&A sometimes as well.

Installing S&A with a full installation and no NPC-EE did cause the error.

Installing S&A with just some components USUALLY does not cause the error but once in awhile it does.

37 minutes ago, subtledoctor said:

Try something besides Lore. And dump EEKeeper. I don’t think this has anything to do with the mods. 

Why would I "try something besides lore" when it is LORE that I want to change?  And using Near Infinity has the exact same problem - changes made to lore disappear once loaded into the modded game.

I don't know why this is such a big hairy deal but apparently it is.  Doesn't seem like it should be but what the hey.  I'd just EE Keeper myself a bunch of identify scrolls but I can't use them.  There doesn't seem to be any way around this extremely annoying issue.

Unless there are 2 types of identify scrolls, the ones you memorize and the ones you just use.  Possibly I gave myself the wrong type?  Better go check that ...

Edited August 22, 2023 by ZenSojourner

[morpheus562]

Remove

Edited Friday at 05:58 PM by morpheus562

[ZenSojourner]

@morpheus562

Sure I could - If I knew how to create items.

I've been playing this game for decades and using save game editors for years.  I've never seen changes to lore (or anything else I've ever changed) made with a save game editor fail in an unmodded game.  However, perhaps that is something that was introduced with EE, I don't know.  I know it hasn't happened in any of my unmodded test runs so far.  Maybe it'd happen down the road somewhere, I don't know.

Again, I didn't think this would be such a great big hairy deal.  Sorry I even asked by now.

[subtledoctor]

Relax, I did not mean to offend. I have no way of knowing if you are a programmer or are disciplined; many folks around here are not. (Which is not a knock against them, modding IE games is a bit more finicky than most games.)  

You are arriving at incorrect conclusions and I know more about this stuff than you, so I am trying to redirect your efforts. I can’t diagnose what is going wrong for you, I don’t have enough information. But I can see some places where you lack information and could bolster it in hopes of diagnosing your problem. To wit:

8 hours ago, ZenSojourner said:

If its timing mode set somewhere else that causes the issue I of course have no control over that

You do have control over that. Timing mode is a parameter of spell effects, if you apply a spell effect to a character you can control the timing mode. If you are testing application of an effect without knowing the parameters you are implementing, I deem that to be an imperfect testing environment. Tighten that up and things will be clearer.

EEKeeper may not give you obvious/good/clear control over it, but that is EEKeeper’s fault. One reason (among several) why I don’t recommend it.

I now bothered to look up the Lore effect in the IESDP, and it states clearly that timing mode 1 is faulty with that opcode. So make sure you are not using a faulty timing mode. If that doesn’t fix things, it will narrow down the possibilities of what is going wrong. (But, I bet that fixes things.)

Another thing to maybe try is to change your applied effect to something besides Lore, just for testing,

8 hours ago, ZenSojourner said:

Why would I "try something besides lore" when it is LORE that I want to change?

just for testing, in order to determine whether this is something to do with effects disappearing from characters (in which case it may be related to mods, or EEex (also a possibility - I don’t have tons of trust in things that mess with the game executable)) or if it only happens with Lore (in which case it is likely related to the Lore opcode - see above).

Anyway, hope this is helpful and gets you playing soon rather than troubleshooting.

Edited August 23, 2023 by subtledoctor

[Nurn]

@morpheus562

Hi Morpheus. I have a question in terms of Mod Compatibility.

Rogue Rebalancing Bard HLA Overhaul implements this HLA:

Lingering Song 
Once a Bard's musical talents have reached a significant level, his music can stay with the listeners long after the last note has died away. After the Bard stops playing, the effects of his or her song last an additional 2 rounds.
Requires: Enhanced Bard Song

My question is:
What do you think how it interacts with your Component to make the Bard Songs last for 60 seconds?
Do you think it will just extend the time to 72 Seconds or do you think it's not working together?