Tutu or Trilogy

[Daulmakan]

I think the main reason to choose Tutu over Trilogy is if you prefer separate installs/different sets of mods, thus reducing the need to reinstall/modify after each playthorugh, especially if you play noticeable more one content than the other (ie. BG1 vs. BG2). 

[Salk]

11 hours ago, jastey said:

I love the quick loot bar.

Thanks to BG2:Improved GUI, BGT can have that too.

I am one of those that still play BGT and at this point I doubt I will ever do the transition to the EE game. I wrote my own (few mods) with BGT in mind and both BGT and ToBEx are still actively supported (luckily for me) by talented modders.

In my BGT playthrough of several years ago (and since then, there has been improvement made by skellytz and more there will be), I didn't experience any kind of crash. My mod list was rather long but I didn't have any particular big modification.

To me the only real advantage of the EE version (for which, by the way, I am grateful - I bought the games, of course...) is the engine / opcodes additions.

Edited November 22, 2022 by Salk

[CamDawg]

In the olden days, there was a good discussion to be had as to whether the approach of BG content in BG2 as a standalone game (Tutu) or a continuous story (BGT) was a better idea.

After a while, it became obvious that the superior project was the one still being supported--for a while that was Tutu when Macready was still active, but these days it's definitely BGT.

[Guest Morgoth]

8 hours ago, Salk said:

Thanks to BG2:Improved GUI, BGT can have that too.

What I miss the most from BG:EE is the scaled UI in the inventory - I remember to have tried Improved GUI but it had no way to enlarge the inventory.

[Jarno Mikkola]

2 hours ago, CamDawg said:

... but these days it's definitely BGT.

Sure sure, it's not like the last version of it was what ? A v3.03 that was a beta ? (from 2005) .. no, I won't go search for it.
Question you might want to ask yourself ... do you actually mean the EET, rather than the BGT-weidu or the original BGT ? And we could just all agree that the question might have had agendas unrelated to "better idea" -thing.
Cause all those had completely different things in mind, and ways to go about doing so, and we all ended up to the latest and then the EET is your answer, as it became online the last and had the tools that were developped in the way there. And now we have the culmination. Cause I am pretty sure BG1EE wouldn't have been made if there was no Tutu for example. But that's a different discussion.

[jastey]

58 minutes ago, Jarno Mikkola said:

do you actually mean the EET, rather than the BGT-weidu or the original BGT ?

@skellytz is actively supporting BGT, and the topic is about Tutu vs. BGT. I have no idea what you are talking about.

[CamDawg]

This is Jarno's ongoing old-man-yelling-at-clouds moment, as he seems to think that anyone mentioning "BGT" is referring to Bardez's original (non-WeiDU) BGT instead of the current (WeiDU mod) BGT at SHS.

Unlike Jarno, I've actually contributed to both, so I'll keep my own counsel as to how I'll refer to them.

[Jarno Mikkola]

It doesn't matter what you did or what I did, ... as if you were to say that I did nothing. It might be old, but it far more read topic than what you did to support the megamoding of it. And that kinda needs to have the name correct. Or do you disagree ?

1 hour ago, jastey said:

@skellytz is actively supporting BGT,...

Really, cause I don't see him supporting this, yes, I found the thing I didn't want to.

Edited November 22, 2022 by Jarno Mikkola

[Graion Dilach]

On 11/22/2022 at 9:21 PM, Jarno Mikkola said:

if you were to say that I did nothing. It might be old, but it far more read topic than what you did to support the megamoding of it.

Wow, that thread is FULL of misinformation, horrible ideas, and outright computer illiteracy. I never ran into an UAC prompt with Baldur's Gate and the whole idea of disabling AVs and whatnot entirely was already stupid by 2015.

BWS is outdated, abandoned and it never even worked right. Hell, EET Mod Messup still has issues from it's inherited install order even to this day. The thing with BWS is that it's strategy was to throw everything into it and try to silence install warnings but it lacks/lacked the dynamic knowledge of how an individual component was actually affecting the final result. This is why we've got stuff like Lolfixer which outright hardcodes/reverts some of the game assumptions mods might change (like item categories) to ensure it can crudely reconstruct data which was lost prior, instead of actually trying to fix the issue at it's core.

The community moved on from BWS and this mindset it encompasses via enforcing higher standards. BWP/BWS might be acceptable a decade ago but it is completely unsuitable for a stable game simply because it sacrifices game rule consistency and quality standards in order to ensure that every random 15-20 year old overwrite-with-weidu mod gets installed.

Clinging to BWS/BWP in 2022 is the wrong thing to do and it will absolutely fail on someone who would attempt to install mods to the EEs.

Edited November 23, 2022 by Graion Dilach

[jastey]

17 minutes ago, Graion Dilach said:

BWP/BWS might be acceptable a decade ago but it is completely unsuitable for a stable game simply because it sacrifices game rule consistency and quality standards in order to ensure that every random 15-20 year old overwrite-with-weidu mod gets installed.

I am not sure why you mention BWS here in this way, BWS was an automated installer that tried to provide modders' knowledge about mod order and compatibility - what people tried to install with it was their choice. You could say the same about Project Infinity - if a player decides to put in every random 15-20 year old overwrite-with-weidu mod.

It's easy to bad talk BWS now but it was top totch at the time people kept it updated - and burnt out while doing so. We lost some very good technically versed modders due to their service to the playerbase. The way you phrase it is like kicking them while they are already on the ground. For what it's worth, I would appreciate a little more respect for the work that those few people put into it.

[Graion Dilach]

Selecting a red or a yellow checkbox isn't really comparable to looking up the 15-20 year old mod, downloading it externally and throwing it to the PI download folder. I've read the BWP documentation earlier this year and I stand by everything what I think about it (it suggests tweakmods, like some of Tweak Anthology's or klatu tweaks earlier than a fair amount of content mods) and AFAIK BWP's documentation was a cornerstone on what BWS's install order relied on.

It's sad people burnt out supporting it, but it doesn't change the fact that it's method was backwards: instead of trying to enforce consistency rules during the install - yeah, I know the BWP Fixpack offered room for this, but it was moreso aimed to fix the obvious issues and it also generated custom mod versions outright -, it aimed to be as lenient as possible to the mods themselves and then tried to get them all working somewhat via BWP pre-patching or Lolfixer and the like post-patching. That is very nice in theory but way too ambitious in practice - since this can lead to offloading all the issues to BWP/BWS from the mod itself, because it doesn't necessitate that the BWP patches ever end up applied back to their original mods.

And sorry, but my personal experiences taught me that people burning out on chasing unreally naïve and idealistic goals isn't a reason to defend the aims themselves, but actually a reason to review and reconsider them factually. If the facts are hard... then that's just the way it is. I don't blame the people participating in that goal though and I would moreso blame the people taking this goal granted and not trying to discuss if this can be made better any way.

Abandoning the BWP Fixpack was great because it pressurizes modders to support their mods on a best-effort basis, instead of taking this support granted.

Edited November 23, 2022 by Graion Dilach

[Jarno Mikkola]

1 hour ago, Graion Dilach said:

Wow, that thread is FULL of misinformation, horrible ideas, and outright computer illiteracy. I never ran into an UAC prompt with Baldur's Gate and the whole idea of disabling AVs and whatnot entirely was already stupid by 2015.

BWS is outdated, abandoned and it never even worked right. Hell, EET Mod Messup still has issues from it's inherited install order even to this day. The thing with BWS is that it's strategy was to throw everything into it and try to silence install warnings but it lacks/lacked the dynamic knowledge of how an individual component was actually affecting the final result. This is why we've got stuff like Lolfixer which outright hardcodes/reverts some of the game assumptions mods might change (like item categories) to ensure it can crudely reconstruct data which was lost prior, instead of actually trying to fix the issue at it's core.

The community moved on from BWS and this mindset it encompasses via enforcing higher standards. BWP/BWS might be acceptable a decade ago but it is completely unsuitable for a stable game simply because it sacrifices game rule consistency and quality standards in order to ensure that every random 15-20 year old overwrite-with-weidu mod gets installed.

Clinging to BWS/BWP in 2022 is the wrong thing to do and it will absolutely fail on someone who would attempt to install mods to the EEs.

Go ahead and make your own stupid thread .. and I'll come back 10 years from now and prove you how stupid all your ideas are by then. Yes, the community might have moved on to no where after BWS/BWP cause you fucking burned the whoile thing to HELL. Try to work something out of it ... darn idiot.

2 minutes ago, Graion Dilach said:

Selecting a red or a yellow checkbox isn't really comparable to looking up the 15-20 year old mod, downloading it externally ...

And not reading the ingrained info plate what the yellow and red meant was your mistake, now, get it through your head that that was not how people used it at the time, and should not use it now either. And organize a list that help people to go thoguh a proven playthrough. Like the BWP people did..

Edited November 23, 2022 by Jarno Mikkola

[Graion Dilach]

I've followed such a BWP list once a decade ago for BGT-weidu. I ended up with BG2 lockpicking XP values in the BG1 areas so I could leave Candlekeep as a level 3 thief multiclass. Was fun... I mean, confusing. I do remember it was also made with BWS.

11 minutes ago, Jarno Mikkola said:

And organize a list that help people to go thoguh a proven playthrough

You mean something like https://github.com/morpheus562/Baldurs-Gate-Install-Order-List-Repository/tree/main/user-submitted-weidu-logs/graiondilach? Fair, I should update this.

I'm actively supporting megamod installs on multiple channels (G3/Discord/Reddit) already for more than a year now, I have no need for someone like you telling me to work on that.

[Jarno Mikkola]

28 minutes ago, Graion Dilach said:

You mean something like

... more like a thread like mine in SHSforums, into which you can link-back-towards-to and so to share your knowledge, that is also accurate to the time of reference, not to a list on 1 time install that's 11 months old.
But I will admit, your step is a one step. Time to learn how to run. By trying another step forwards, or to a side. Remember, that takes making strides.

28 minutes ago, Graion Dilach said:

I ended up with BG2 lockpicking XP values in the BG1 areas so I could leave Candlekeep as a level 3 thief multiclass. Was fun... I mean, confusing. I do remember it was also made with BWS.

And did you ask help ? Cause there's a way to "fix" that if you want to do it. It takes editing a single file in your override folder with a text editor, or with a Near Infinity if you biffed the compilation. _and the install instuction of that should still work out nearly well with the 10 year old thread of mine. I won't relink to it, but ... we have come back towards the point in the beginnig of this post.

Edited November 23, 2022 by Jarno Mikkola