Sling Damage Discrepancy

[sirnicklaus]

Slings are incurring a strength bonus.  The manual states that the strength bonus is purely for melee weapons.  No other ranged weapon incurs a strength bonus.

[sirnicklaus]

I'm assuming the lack of interest/replies on this one means a fix is not feasible?

[lynx]

It makes sense though and the manuals are all sorts of wrong. There's a bit in the ITM structure that dictates this (there's a bg2 sling that explicitly adds strength). Perhaps it's just on by default in iwd.

[sirnicklaus]

I just noticed that giant strength potions state that upon drinking, the user "gains great strength and bonuses to hit and damage while using any hand-held or thrown weapon."  This suggests that throwing knives, throwing axes, and darts should incur the bonuses or penalties from a character's strength stat.  While bullets, bolts, and arrows should not.  This seems intuitive.

In any case: it makes absolutely no sense that slings and only slings, as far as ranged weapons are concerned, incorporate strength bonuses/penalties.  It's not fitting that players should feel compelled to select slings as their ranged weapon choice because their THAC0 and damage potential dwarf that of all other ranged weapons.  This is broken.

[4udr4n]

Pretty sure this has been discussed ad infinitum.

There are number of mods that add strength bonuses to thrown weapons (often excluding darts, which seems odd, worth watching this:

) and I think I recall seeing one that removed it from slings.

Edited November 8, 2023 by 4udr4n
incorrect link

[Angel]

PHB says: "The damage adjustment also applies to to missile weapons, although bows must be specially made to gain the bonus; crossbows never benefit from the user's Strength."  (PHB 2e, TSR 2159, page 20, Damage Adjustment).  So it should apply to slings, thrown daggers and axes and the like.  However, I think there is an optional rule to not let it apply to darts on the ground that they are too light to carry the force, but I'll have to double-check on that.

[sirnicklaus]

16 hours ago, 4udr4n said:

There are number of mods that add strength bonuses to thrown weapons (often excluding darts, which seems odd, worth watching this: https://open.qobuz.com/album/qakqpc5462zpb) and I think I recall seeing one that removed it from slings.

The link you provided goes to a music album.  You meant to paste a different one perhaps?

Would you point me towards the specific mod that removes the bonus from slings?  At least this would put them on a level playing field with the rest of the ranged weapons.  Right now they have an unfounded advantage over everything else.

8 hours ago, Angel said:

PHB says: "The damage adjustment also applies to to missile weapons, although bows must be specially made to gain the bonus; crossbows never benefit from the user's Strength."  (PHB 2e, TSR 2159, page 20, Damage Adjustment).  So it should apply to slings, thrown daggers and axes and the like.  However, I think there is an optional rule to not let it apply to darts on the ground that they are too light to carry the force, but I'll have to double-check on that.

Sorry, what is PHB?

That makes crossbows rather weak/unappealing by comparison, doesn't it?

The idea that darts are too light to carry the force is interesting.  Being light would just mean that the dart could be thrown at a higher rate of speed than a heavier implement.  Unless they're more lobbed than hurled.

[jmerry]

PHB: "Player's Handbook". One of the basic rulebooks that any group should have, and the one with all the rules for how to create and play characters.

 

Mechanically in the IE games, there's a flag to apply both the attack and damage bonuses for high strength. Melee weapons use this. Ranged weapons get a bonus to attack for high dexterity; no flag is needed here. Then the EE also has a flag which applies only the damage bonus; this is used for slings and thrown axes/daggers/hammers, but not other ranged weapons (in the BG series, anyway). I don't think there's a clean way to get the damage bonus for strength in a pre-EE game without also getting the attack bonus.

[4udr4n]

8 hours ago, sirnicklaus said:

The link you provided goes to a music album.  You meant to paste a different one perhaps?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xK96h2dyJfI&t=610s (also corrected above)

8 hours ago, sirnicklaus said:

The idea that darts are too light to carry the force is interesting.  Being light would just mean that the dart could be thrown at a higher rate of speed than a heavier implement.  Unless they're more lobbed than hurled.

Exactly the point I was trying to make with the link! Darts in AD&D are not modelled on modern sport darts or shuriken, but on plumbata (think lawn darts made for war!). Strength is extremely relevant, and you can throw them very rapidly (though probably no more rapidly than throwing knives).

8 hours ago, sirnicklaus said:

Would you point me towards the specific mod that removes the bonus from slings? 

That would mean searching through the readmes of quite a few tweak mods. I'll take a quick look this evening.

3 hours ago, jmerry said:

Then the EE also has a flag which applies only the damage bonus; this is used for slings and thrown axes/daggers/hammers, but not other ranged weapons (in the BG series, anyway). I don't think there's a clean way to get the damage bonus for strength in a pre-EE game without also getting the attack bonus.

I've always though that all thrown weapons should get a damage bonus for strength and THAC0 bonus for Dex, but that it is more complex with bows:
If we're shooting for realism, bows require a certain amount of strength to draw fully, but they can be drawn partially by a weaker user. Below full draw they will be both less powerful and less accurate. Excess strength makes no difference (overdrawing a bow can also make it less accurate and will end up breaking it) except to help the user not get fatigued. You could show this in game by giving bows a low minimum strength but penalties to THAC0 and damage below a higher strength number.
Light crossbows are generally reloaded using strength, whereas heavy crossbows (windlass/arbalest) use a mechanism that is not strength dependant, so arguably light crossbows should have a strength requirement but heavy should not.

[Trouveur80]

11 hours ago, sirnicklaus said:

Would you point me towards the specific mod that removes the bonus from slings?  At least this would put them on a level playing field with the rest of the ranged weapons.  Right now they have an unfounded advantage over everything else.

Slings have only 1 APR, compared to 2 for bows and throwing daggers, and 3 for darts. Without the strength bonus slings would have no appeal compared to other options.

Edited November 8, 2023 by Trouveur80

[sirnicklaus]

On 11/8/2023 at 4:11 AM, 4udr4n said:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xK96h2dyJfI&t=610s (also corrected above)

Exactly the point I was trying to make with the link! Darts in AD&D are not modelled on modern sport darts or shuriken, but on plumbata (think lawn darts made for war!). Strength is extremely relevant, and you can throw them very rapidly (though probably no more rapidly than throwing knives).

That would mean searching through the readmes of quite a few tweak mods. I'll take a quick look this evening.

I've always though that all thrown weapons should get a damage bonus for strength and THAC0 bonus for Dex, but that it is more complex with bows:
If we're shooting for realism, bows require a certain amount of strength to draw fully, but they can be drawn partially by a weaker user. Below full draw they will be both less powerful and less accurate. Excess strength makes no difference (overdrawing a bow can also make it less accurate and will end up breaking it) except to help the user not get fatigued. You could show this in game by giving bows a low minimum strength but penalties to THAC0 and damage below a higher strength number.
Light crossbows are generally reloaded using strength, whereas heavy crossbows (windlass/arbalest) use a mechanism that is not strength dependant, so arguably light crossbows should have a strength requirement but heavy should not.

That vid. made for a decent watch. 

That tweak mod is one here on Gibberlings, yes?  I have a prior version of Tweaks Anthology installed and I don't recall coming across any ranged weapon options like that.

Your thoughts about bows and crossbows also make a lot of sense.  Additionally, partially drawn bows would also potentially not fire arrows as far.  But I suppose bow users can't use firing arcs for long distance shots in Icewind Dale anyway.

On 11/8/2023 at 6:43 AM, Trouveur80 said:

Slings have only 1 APR, compared to 2 for bows and throwing daggers, and 3 for darts. Without the strength bonus slings would have no appeal compared to other options.

That point makes some sense if the end goal is to make all ranged weapons equally effective.  I guess in my mind the sling should be a less appealing option.  One that mages, clerics, etc. may have to resort to because they can not use some of the more impressive ranged weapons. 

In my current playthrough I have two dual class warriors.  One with grand mastery in axes and the other in slings.  Their attack rate is the same, but the sling user's THAC0 and damage output kind of make the throwing axes look like a joke.  Especially after casting Draw Upon Holy Might or consuming a giant strength potion.  I'm skeptical that a slung stone would be even AS deadly as the blade of a thrown axe, let alone much more so.  Feels very off.

[lynx]

You can lob it at a greater speed and blunt impact is good regardless of armor, unlike a throwing axe.

[4udr4n]

13 hours ago, sirnicklaus said:

That point makes some sense if the end goal is to make all ranged weapons equally effective.  I guess in my mind the sling should be a less appealing option.  One that mages, clerics, etc. may have to resort to because they can not use some of the more impressive ranged weapons. 

In my current playthrough I have two dual class warriors.  One with grand mastery in axes and the other in slings.  Their attack rate is the same, but the sling user's THAC0 and damage output kind of make the throwing axes look like a joke.  Especially after casting Draw Upon Holy Might or consuming a giant strength potion.  I'm skeptical that a slung stone would be even AS deadly as the blade of a thrown axe, let alone much more so.  Feels very off.

Slings are ridiculously misrepresented in games generally. They are longer ranged than bows and at least as deadly, probably in many cases much more so vs armoured opponents. Here's more from Todd:

I think the issue with them is that it takes a huge amount of practice to become accurate (having tried!), particularly vs moving targets.

In a battlefield context, I'd much rather face archers than slings, the hails of stones/bullets would be terrifying even in armour, but as a skirmishing adventurer I suspect a bow would be more of a threat.

Slings are also common, cheap, biodegradable and unglamourous, which harms their historical reputation and preservation.

[Graion Dilach]

I think some of the confusion comes from slingshots. Slingshots are visually similar to slings in many ways, but they are indeed simpler and weaker and personally, for a long time I even thought that every time something refers to slings, they mean slingshots.

Edited November 13, 2023 by Graion Dilach

[Jarno Mikkola]

10 hours ago, Graion Dilach said:

I think some of the confusion comes from slingshots. Slingshots are visually similar to slings in many ways, but they are indeed simpler and weaker and personally, for a long time I even thought that every time something refers to slings, they mean slingshots.

Well, arguments could be made that Trebuchet is a slingshot too, so I don't see your point. You probably mean slinghshot ala:

But that's a kinds toy.