Questions regarding item enchantment level (+1, +2, etc.)

[Jazira]

Hello there,

I have a few questions regarding item enchantment level (+1, +2, etc.) because I can't understand the logic beneath this subject, or at least identify a clear consensus among all the items.

What exactly determines the "+X" after the name of an object for EACH category of items ? I counted, I guess, 4-5 different types of item categories.

For melee weapons? Is it the THAC0, the bonus damage, or the protection against magical weapons levels it can reach?

Why does the Staff of the Magi, for example, do not have any enchantment level in its name?

For ranged weapons? My guess is the munitions themselves determine the protection levels against magical weapons they can reach, and for the weapon itself it's the THAC0, right?

For munitions (arrows,  bolts, etc.)? THACO, damage, protection levels against magical weapons they can reach?

For armors and shields? By AC?

All the other items (rings, cloaks, bracers, etc.)? It seems like only the non-cumulative ones with armors and shields AC got some distinctions, all the rest seem to not be covered by it and do not show any "+X" in their names.

Any special case, exception?

Edited July 8, 2023 by Jazira

[jastey]

I'd be interested in the answer myself.

I anted to move the topic out of EE Fixpack but I'm not sure where to.

[Jazira]

13 hours ago, jastey said:

I'd be interested in the answer myself.

I anted to move the topic out of EE Fixpack but I'm not sure where to.

Yeah, we've been talking about it yesterday, @lefreut, @Mera, @rivvers and I, and it became clear that each of us had slightly different points of view about it.

Sorry if it's not the right place to ask. I wished to ask from the EE perspective, because some vanilla enchantment levels got changed since then.

As long as we get some clear answers, feel free to move this topic wherever you want.

 

[Mera]

Staff of the Magi really is a weird one for me.
If we go by thaco bonus, Staff of the magi +1 make it look like it's a weak item when clearly, it's not. But then, maybe that's the reason the +X was omitted in the name?
If we go by enchantement level, Staff of the Magi +5 would look fine but then there's repeated information with "strikes as a +5 weapon"...

Regarding the fixpack, seemed like the correct place to ask given that maybe, some of those items would need an update?

[jmerry]

It all has the feel of a rather ad-hoc system; there are some general rules, but anything can have exceptions. Like, for example, SoD's "The Uncursed Staff +1". That has a +1 enchantment level, a -2 to-hit penalty, and a -2 damage penalty. But hey, at least it sets the wielder to 18 strength, with the corresponding +1 to hit and +2 damage.

I don't see any need for things to be changed, unless there are cross-language inconsistencies. An item that's named "+N" in one language should also be "+N" in other languages.

[Jazira]

We don't call for anything to be changed (yet), we just call for knowledge.

What are those rules?

[jmerry]

A +N weapon gets +N to (physical) damage, +N to attack, and a +N enchantment level compared to its baseline version. Except that enchantment level doesn't matter for launchers, bows in BG2 don't get damage, and arrows and bolts in BG2 don't get damage. Plus there's the occasional weapon that's just different, like Namarra getting +4 damage instead of +2, Azuredge getting -1 damage instead of +3 (throwing axes are 1d6+1 base), Dragon's Breath getting +0 physical damage instead of +4, and so on. Enchantment level almost always matches the +N number, but the Mace of Disruption is an exception that provides its elevated enchantment level against everything rather than just undead.

A +N shield gets a +N bonus to overall AC. Large shields keep their missile bonuses, unless it's a special case with even better missile AC. Small shields intensify their missile penalties so the overall effect is 0 to missile defense. Bucklers intensify their missile and piercing penalties so the overall effect is 0 to both.

A +N protection item grants a +N bonus to AC and saves.

A +N piece of body armor grants a +N bonus to overall AC. Modifiers stay the same, except when they don't - for example, nonmagical full plate has a -4 bonus to slashing AC, but drow full plate +5 only has a -3 bonus.

I think there are only two other items with +N names; the Helm of the Noble +1 which grants +1 AC, and "Eilistraee's Boon +1", an unused piece of BG1 headgear that grants +1 to saves.

Undroppable enemy items are ignored here; you'll never see their names unless you go looking in the files, and those names are often just remnants of whatever cloning process was used to build the item.

[Jarno Mikkola]

jmerry's answer is good one, in addition to that, one needs to know that some enemies require you to either either have +x amount of enhancement to be able to damage the target, or have other properties that grant it. This is build into the items themselves and the creatures and their self set effect. Like for example, you cannot harm some enemies without using enhanced weapons, like say glay golems. And if you have a Lich that casts itself a Protection From Magical weapons, you are boned until you cast Breah on it cause none of your weapons can bypass that protection... unless you do some manual editing of the spell, and set the default zero to a-say 4.

Special weapons usually use the highest level enhantment level the weapon uses for their damage. So the Equalizer that does 1d8 ...

+2 extra vs. LN & CN
+4 extra vs. NG & NE
+6 extra vs. LG, LE, CG, CE
Uses a +5 to see what it can hit.

[jmerry]

1 hour ago, Jarno Mikkola said:

Special weapons usually use the highest level enhantment level the weapon uses for their damage. So the Equalizer that does 1d8 ...

Not true in the EE.

First off, the Equalizer hits as +3 versus everything. The enchantment level is basically the average of its damage. And it doesn't put a +N in its name anyway.

Second, most weapons that get bonuses versus certain types of enemies actually have their enchantment levels vary. Daystar is +2 against non-evil creatures and +4 against evil creatures. The Burning Earth can hit as +1, +2, +3, or +4 depending on enemy type. (By the way, only winter wolves qualify as "cold-using creatures"? That might work for BGEE, but the weapon's in BG2EE as well.)

Edited July 9, 2023 by jmerry

[CamDawg]

1 hour ago, jmerry said:

(By the way, only winter wolves qualify as "cold-using creatures"? That might work for BGEE, but the weapon's in BG2EE as well.)

This is probably something that needs its own topic. 'Regenerating' and 'cold-using' are very broad--ice/blizzard/snow trolls qualify under both, and I'm sure we can come up with a longer list of 'cold-users' like frost salamanders or ice mephits.

[jmerry]

Indeed. Creating that thread now.

[Jarno Mikkola]

On 7/10/2023 at 12:21 AM, jmerry said:

Not true in the EE.

First off, the Equalizer hits as +3 versus everything.

Really ? Cause the only thing that actually dictates which item can hit what creature (while the creature is not immune to the damage and effects associated with the weapon ) is the items flags, aka the .itm -files offset 0x0018 's 4 (dword) hexadecimal number, especially the items magical, silver and cold iron flags , etc. This is how the PfMW works, it reads that items flag and protects if it reads a 1 somewhere there... cause it set to protect from all enhancement levels, aka the power level is zero.
If one "drops" the power level to say 4, a +5 item can hit the lich. You say the AI cannot handle this... yeah, that's the point... or rather, why is there Mantlle spells(level 7 spell, and Improved level 8 )  if they are not indended to be used as greater protection than a level 6 spell. I'll just answer, I don't know.

 

That is the .itm files offset 0x0060... the iesdp calls it "Enhantment" (level) cause it a number.

Edited July 11, 2023 by Jarno Mikkola

[CamDawg]

58 minutes ago, Jarno Mikkola said:

Really ?

Yes.

[Jazira]

Thanks for taking the time for this explanation.

It's a bit disturbing, again I'm not calling for changing everything, this topic is meant to bring knowledge and is not directly linked with the EEFixpack. But it seems that these rules apply to some but not all objects (especially weapons). Some feel arbitrary but developers have to make a choice, at the end. Anyway it doesn't sound like a clear consensus that can be applied anywhere without any eventual problems.

And... I still can't figure out why the Staff of the Magi, for example, doesn't have any enchantment level shown in its name.

[kjeron]

3 hours ago, Jazira said:

And... I still can't figure out why the Staff of the Magi, for example, doesn't have any enchantment level shown in its name.

A lot of the named Staves are straight from PnP (at least in name, not so much in function), where they are listed along with Rods and Wands, none of which list an enchantment level in their name.