SCS decreases spell scroll drop rates???

[ktchong]

Does SCS decrease the drop rate of wizard scrolls from enemies and monsters??

And it decreases the drops rates by a lot -- the difference is very noticeable and very significant.  With SCS, monsters NEVER drop scrolls.  Like, literally NEVER.  WTF??  I had played the vanilla and various modded versions without SCS, and it has never been like this.

This seems to be another undocumented annoyance of the SCS that is installed without the user's knowledge or consent.   This is the first time I am using SCS, and more and more  I am regretting having it installed because it is just screwing around with and messing up everything that it is not supposed to..

Edited February 23 by ktchong

[ktchong]

Just read another thread and downloaded the latest version that (supposedly) fixes the drop rate issue with scrolls.

Is there a setting/switch that can be changed to increase the drop rates for wizard scrolls?   I want to dial it up to make up for the losses in the previous chapters and encounters.  Right now my party can't support two mages and a bard because they have not been able to find enough scrolls to fill out all their spell books.  The bard literally can't cast any level-3 wizard spells, i..e, level-3 spell book is completely blank because could not find any level-3 scroll to write.   I have to drop that bard because SCS messes up the drop rate.

Edited February 22 by ktchong

[Trouveur80]

You can still buy scrolls at Thalantyr as a work around. 

[jmerry]

It's specifically the component that extends random scrolls to all scrolls of their level, and specifically a particular version of it from earlier versions of v35. Vanilla, the v34 random scroll component, and the v35.10 random scroll component all allow the lowest-level random treasure in common use (dropped by the likes of gibberlings, hobgoblins, kobolds, gnolls, and many others) to become level 1 scrolls. The v35.7 random scroll component, however, did not allow that random treasure to become a scroll.

As for level 3 scrolls ... in vanilla or the v35.7 random scroll component, you'll only get random level 3 scrolls from the highest-level random treasures in BGEE. Which means killing stuff like basilisks, doppelgangers, or ogre magi. There aren't very many of those out there. You just can't rely on random scrolls to fill up your spellbook at level 3, and the guaranteed scrolls at that level from drops and stores are very rare until you progress in the story.

Now, the v34 and v35.10 versions of the random scroll component are noticeably more generous there, allowing level 3 random scrolls on the next treasure down - you can get them from ghouls and the like, if you're lucky. So random drops will get you something in those versions.

The newest version of the random scroll component is still less generous than the v34 version in one way: v34 capped scrolls at level 4 in BG1 and level 8 in BG2, while v35.10 caps them at level 3 in BG1 and level 7 in BG2.

[ktchong]

20 hours ago, Trouveur80 said:

You can still buy scrolls at Thalantyr as a work around. 

Already did.  Thalantyr sold only two copies of most scrolls, and those two copies went to the two mages.   So now the bard is left with nothing, and my party can't swap mages (because they would have no more scrolls to learn.)

Edited February 23 by ktchong

[ktchong]

10 hours ago, jmerry said:

It's specifically the component that extends random scrolls to all scrolls of their level, and specifically a particular version of it from earlier versions of v35. Vanilla, the v34 random scroll component, and the v35.10 random scroll component all allow the lowest-level random treasure in common use (dropped by the likes of gibberlings, hobgoblins, kobolds, gnolls, and many others) to become level 1 scrolls. The v35.7 random scroll component, however, did not allow that random treasure to become a scroll.

As for level 3 scrolls ... in vanilla or the v35.7 random scroll component, you'll only get random level 3 scrolls from the highest-level random treasures in BGEE. Which means killing stuff like basilisks, doppelgangers, or ogre magi. There aren't very many of those out there. You just can't rely on random scrolls to fill up your spellbook at level 3, and the guaranteed scrolls at that level from drops and stores are very rare until you progress in the story.

Now, the v34 and v35.10 versions of the random scroll component are noticeably more generous there, allowing level 3 random scrolls on the next treasure down - you can get them from ghouls and the like, if you're lucky. So random drops will get you something in those versions.

The newest version of the random scroll component is still less generous than the v34 version in one way: v34 capped scrolls at level 4 in BG1 and level 8 in BG2, while v35.10 caps them at level 3 in BG1 and level 7 in BG2.

 

Why?  Why messed around with drop rates??   And Why-TF cap the random scroll levels???  Those are very unnecessary and unreasonable changes to the drop rates, and they are NOT accurately documented or revealed to the users.   Drastically lowering drop rates of random scrolls and capping their levels... those are HUGE changes to the game.  Those undocumented changes are neither "fair" nor "low key" as adverstised.  The different SCS versions kept changing the drop rates and scroll level caps back and forth -- without giving much consideration on how those changes would actually alter and even break game balance.

All those changes are clearly beyond the stated goal and scope of the mod, and they are not properly or accurately explained anywhere on the SCS webpage or in its readme.

This is the first time I've installed SCS, and I've always installed the latest versions.  So I was comparing SCS drop rates vs. vanilla drop rates, (i.e., never used anything before v35.)

Also, SCS supposedly adds "wizard chess" to the game.  Can't play wizard chess when this mod takes away all the chess pieces from the players.  It is simply poor balancing and lousy pacing. 

This just completely screws up my game.  Now I can't replace or swap out mages because there are no more scrolls for them to scribe into their spellbooks.  The limitation of this stupid mod is restricting my mage choices and options.

I've found this mod to be extremely dishonest.  It claims to do one thing but then sneakily does another, without telling the user or giving the user the option to not install those components. 

Edited February 23 by ktchong

[ktchong]

This is what stated in the readme of SCS:

Quote

Wider selection of random scrolls (BGEE,BG2EE,EET)

Scrolls in random drops in BG:EE are selected from the same range as in vanilla BG, and so do not include any of the newer spells introduced in BG2. And random drops in BG2:EE include a rather small subset of all available spells. This component changes random drops so that every 1st-8th level wizard spell for which a scroll exists will have some chance of dropping. (The probability that a given creature or treasure chest contains a scroll of a given level is more-or-less unchanged, but the range is wider.) This component will also add mod-added spells (such as the Icewind Dale spells from IWDification) to the random drops.

 

So that was basically misrepresented.  The component does not actually give a wider selection of random scrolls.  It actually limits -- or even eliminates random scrolls.  I certainly have not gotten any scroll drop at all from random monsters.  Zero drop. That is a freaking HUGE misrepresented change to the game balance.  I'd say that change broke the game balance and pacing.

So the component does something that is completely different from what was being stated.  The component should be renamed to "Lower drop rates of random scrolls" with more accurate descriptions of what it actually does.

If I took out that component, will the scroll drop rates go back to normal/vanilla?

 

Edited February 23 by ktchong

[Graion Dilach]

Wow, this is a level of entitlement based on nonsense. I mean, feel free to criticize the SCS system, but atleast know the original system along.

In obG1/oBG2, the amount and type of random spell scrolls are fixed. Excluding the direct Identify scrolls from the basic random treasure, the vanilla dedicated random spell scrolls are limited in scope and even distributed messily in oBG2. So for example, yes, you wouldn't ever receive a level 4 scroll from a random treasure in oBG1 either. Sure, the BG2 scroll cap is lower than the maximum level of a spell you can get in vanilla, but considering that oBG2 just substituted some basic scrolls with high level counterparts on a whim and kept the BG1 system along otherwise, I'd shrug that off.

And yes, the SCS component wides the selection, because it takes all the scrolls available in the game (even the ones added by other mods) and offers equal chance between all of them instead of limiting the overall selection to what, ~30 scrolls. I haven't looked at v35, but in v34 it definitely increased the chance of random scrolls appearing, because it substituted a few slots on the generic random treasure generations occupied by non-scrolls with it's scroll tokens to increase the distribution, because the scroll treasure itself isn't really commonplace enough on it's own anyway. But then again, jmerry did confirm that this is still in.

The only technicality why this might seem different are caused by content mods when those content mods end up using the oBG random treasure names on Trilogy games, because both BGT and EET rename the oBG1 counterparts, which means these content mods accidentally introduce the BG2 level random treasures which can be rolled into higher levels of scrolls during the BG1 segment with SCS. (EEEE did this for a while, that's why it resulted with so many level 4 scrolls in the Gnoll Stronghold at one point.)

Yes, the original game is THIS stingy and that has nothing to do with SCS.

If you want more scrolls and a more "even" distribution, you can also take any/many of the RandomGraionTweaks scroll components along, because that introduces a parallel system.

Edited February 23 by Graion Dilach

[ktchong]

I uninstalled the SCS component "wider selection of random scrolls," (which is really a misnomer because it actually lowers and even eliminates random scroll drops altogether.)  Then I loaded and tested some save games from recently and way back.  Finally, monsters started to drop random scrolls for the first times.

That component is broken and has misleading designation and descriptions.  It does NOT add "wider selection of random scrolls", i.e., you cannot get a "wider selection of random scrolls" when monsters were NOT dropping random scroll at all.  The component actually lowers/eliminate scroll drops. It needs to be  property identified and described as such so as not to mislead users into installing the component for one reason but then ending up getting something else entirely different (and bad.)

If the component was purposed to make the game harder outside of improving enemy AI, then what should have been done was to split that component into two or even three:

1. The component for actually adding a wider selection of random scrolls without lowering drop rates;

2. A separate second component  for lowering drop rates for random scrolls;

3. A third component for setting level caps for random scrolls. 

Instead of combining all three into the same one component (but accomplishes only number 2 and 3.)    Let users decide which of the three they want in their games.  If users decide to install the second component to lower drop rates, then let user select what how much lower drops/less random scrolls they want.  If users decide to install the third component to set level caps for random scrolls, then let user select at what levels they want to cap their random scrolls.  Then SCS will not have to keep adjusting and experimenting with drop rates and level caps with every new version, but will only end up upsetting the game balance and pacing.  That is better than slipping in hidden, unwanted change that claims to add (a wider selection of) random scrolls but conceptually does the exact opposite. 

 

Edited February 23 by ktchong

[mickabouille]

Bugs happens.

Here, your full refund -> 0€

[Graion Dilach]

There is one way how this could turn out though - but RandomGraionTweaks Bag of Spilling fixes that silently and I don't think @ktchong has that.

I've seen the chain-randomization setup breaking on random items when they lack the ITM file and that's one of the reason why I set up a dummy ITM file to all random items during Bag of Spilling. (they would also otherwise can turn out to be an immovable undroppable object). I think (although it's been a long while I've looked into this) SCS scrolls lacked the ITM file last I looked, notsure if this was changed.

[subtledoctor]

10 hours ago, Graion Dilach said:

content mods end up using the oBG random treasure names on Trilogy games, because both BGT and EET rename the oBG1 counterparts, which means these content mods accidentally introduce the BG2 level random treasures which can be rolled into higher levels of scrolls during the BG1 segment with SCS. (EEEE did this for a while, that's why it resulted with so many level 4 scrolls in the Gnoll Stronghold at one point.

AH HA! I could never figure this one out! Thank you. 

I’m not touching OP’s complaint, they are upset because the mod changes something they are used to - e exibetly they need all spellcasting party members to know all the spells - and now they are blowing it out of proportion. (“Dcrewing around and messing with everything” and “breaks game balance” and “completely screws up my game.”)

OP, take some deep breaths. And maybe trying installing the Bigg’s Tweaks component “enemy mages drop spellbooks” - I recommend 25% of mages and 25 or 50% of spells, for occasional but very dopamine-stimulating bits of loot for your casters. You can install this at the end of your order, even after SCS, for easy uninstallation if you don’t like it. And you should be able to add it to a game in progress, with the caveat that it will not affect enemies in maps you have already been to. 

Edited February 23 by subtledoctor

[CrevsDaak]

+1 on the bigg's tweaks component, it's really good and you are going to get a ludicrous amount of spells very fast, which might just be what you need, because if the v35.10 drop rates seem bad to you, then all I can say has already been said and it is that vanilla drops you jackshit compared to it.

[DrAzTiK]

Tbh, these random scrolls have always been unbalanced/incoherent.  To remove them is the way to go. Replace them with some random gems could be more interesting

Edited February 24 by DrAzTiK

[DavidW]

On 2/22/2024 at 2:43 PM, ktchong said:

So the component does something that is completely different from what was being stated.  The component should be renamed to "Lower drop rates of random scrolls" with more accurate descriptions of what it actually does.

The description is accurate as to developer intent. Insofar as it's dropping too few scrolls, that's a continuation of the bug, or else someone new - it's not an intended stealth nerf. It sounds from your other posts as if you'd rather just uninstall - which is fine, no-one is obliged to help fix bugs in mods - so I won't chase you further for details.