CamDawg Posted October 28, 2006 Share Posted October 28, 2006 acolyte1.cre - Talon Zogas - originally True Neutral ar18prie.cre - Priest of Cyric - originally Lawful Evil bazeye01.cre - Iycanth the Mad - originally True Neutral bazeye02.cre - Iycanth the Mad - originally True Neutral c6drow1.cre - Drow - originally Lawful Neutral c6kngt3.cre - Storm Knight - originally True Neutral caehan.cre - Caehan - originally Chaotic Good chang02.cre - Angelo - originally Neutral Good cldad.cre - Talon Nirkhas - originally True Neutral clstkn01.cre - Storm Knight - originally True Neutral cltalp01.cre - Weather Master - originally Lawful Good daqilue.cre - Qilue - originally NONE dvampfl.cre - Vampire - originally Chaotic Neutral eletro02.cre - Troll - originally NONE gnlcap01.cre - Gnoll Captain - originally Chaotic Neutral gnleli01.cre - Gnoll Elite - originally Chaotic Neutral gnlsla01.cre - Gnoll Slasher - originally Chaotic Neutral gnlvet01.cre - Gnoll Veteran - originally Chaotic Neutral gnlwar01.cre - Gnoll - originally Chaotic Neutral gnoll01.cre - Gnoll - originally Chaotic Neutral gnollhp1.cre - Gnoll - originally Chaotic Neutral gnollsu.cre - Gnoll Elite - originally Chaotic Neutral gpmage1.cre - N'ashtar - originally Chaotic Good gppri1.cre - Chandrilla - originally Chaotic Good gpsimb.cre - Simbja - originally NONE gron.cre - Theshal - originally Chaotic Good hlketta.cre - Ketta - originally Chaotic Neutral hlketta2.cre - Ketta - originally Chaotic Neutral hlskull.cre - Golden Skull - originally True Neutral hobarc01.cre - Hobgoblin Archer - originally NONE hobarc02.cre - Hobgoblin Archer - originally NONE hobcap01.cre - Hobgoblin Captain - originally NONE hobeli01.cre - Hobgoblin Elite - originally NONE hobwar01.cre - Hobgoblin Warrior - originally NONE hobwiz01.cre - Hobgoblin Wizard - originally NONE jaerto1.cre - Jarden - originally Lawful Good jaerto2.cre - Turg - originally Lawful Good jaerto3.cre - Tamile - originally Chaotic Neutral jaerto4.cre - Wurn - originally Lawful Good jaertof.cre - Ertof Dand - originally Lawful Good jaga2.cre - Kail - originally Lawful Neutral jaga4.cre - Iko - originally Neutral Evil kalah.cre - Kalah - originally Chaotic Neutral kalah2.cre - Kalah - originally Chaotic Neutral kaol.cre - Kaol - originally True Neutral kaypal01.cre - Anarg - originally Chaotic Neutral kptrol01.cre - Troll - originally Chaotic Evil kptrol02.cre - Troll - originally Chaotic Evil kptrol03.cre - Troll - originally Chaotic Evil kptrol04.cre - Troll - originally Chaotic Evil kptrol05.cre - Troll - originally Chaotic Evil kptrol06.cre - Troll - originally Chaotic Evil nalla.cre - Stormherald Nallabir - originally Chaotic Good obshal01.cre - Entu - originally Lawful Neutral obshal03.cre - Necre - originally Lawful Neutral obshal06.cre - Taibela - originally True Neutral ogre01.cre - Ogre - originally NONE plass02.cre - Assassin - originally Lawful Good plass03.cre - Assassin - originally Lawful Good plass04.cre - Assassin - originally Lawful Good plyogre.cre - Ogre - originally NONE ppduel2.cre - Dirbish the Black - originally Lawful Neutral pptiax.cre - Tiax - originally True Neutral pptiax2.cre - Tiax - originally True Neutral pries10a.cre - Zorl - originally NONE pries10c.cre - Zorl - originally Lawful Evil pries12b.cre - Zeela - originally True Neutral pries6a.cre - Zorl - originally NONE pries6b.cre - Zorl - originally NONE pries6c.cre - Zorl - originally NONE pries8a.cre - Zorl - originally NONE pries8b.cre - Zorl - originally NONE pries8c.cre - Zorl - originally NONE priss.cre - Priss - originally True Neutral reband01.cre - Bandit - originally Chaotic Neutral reband02.cre - Bandit - originally Chaotic Neutral rorcs01.cre - Orog - originally NONE ruffian.cre - Amalas - originally Chaotic Neutral rumar.cre - Rumar - originally True Neutral sahkng01.cre - King Ixilthetocal - originally Lawful Evil sahkng02.cre - King Ixilthetocal - originally Lawful Evil samia.cre - Samia - originally Chaotic Neutral sarbul04.cre - Gromnir Soldier - originally Lawful Neutral sarbul05.cre - Gromnir Soldier - originally Lawful Neutral sarbul06.cre - Il-Khan Soldier - originally Lawful Neutral sarbul07.cre - Il-Khan Soldier - originally Lawful Neutral scyarryl.cre - Talon Yarryl - originally True Neutral sevpat01.cre - Mencar Pebblecrusher - originally Chaotic Neutral sevpat04.cre - Smaeluv Orcslicer - originally Lawful Neutral slapri.cre - Priest of Cyric - originally NONE suna.cre - Suna Seni - originally Lawful Neutral talkni01.cre - Storm Knight - originally True Neutral talkni02.cre - Storm Knight - originally True Neutral talmiss.cre - Mistress Ada - originally True Neutral talmiss2.cre - Mistress Ada - originally True Neutral talvilon.cre - Acolyte Vilon - originally True Neutral tanthf01.cre - Rune Assassin - originally Chaotic Neutral telsuc1.cre - Alu-Fiend - originally Lawful Neutral teltief3.cre - Tiefling - originally Chaotic Neutral trevil01.cre - Lord Khellon Menold - originally NONE trolde01.cre - Desert Troll - originally Chaotic Evil trolde02.cre - Desert Troll - originally Chaotic Evil trolfr01.cre - Troll - originally Chaotic Evil trolfr02.cre - Troll - originally Chaotic Evil trolgi01.cre - Giant Troll - originally Chaotic Evil trolgi02.cre - Giant Troll - originally Chaotic Evil trolic01.cre - Ice Troll - originally Chaotic Evil trolic02.cre - Ice Troll - originally Chaotic Evil trolic03.cre - Blizzard Troll - originally Chaotic Evil trolic04.cre - Blizzard Troll - originally Chaotic Evil troll01.cre - Troll - originally Chaotic Evil troll02.cre - Troll - originally Chaotic Evil troll03.cre - Troll - originally Chaotic Evil trollens.cre - Giant Troll - originally Chaotic Evil trollsm2.cre - Troll - originally Chaotic Evil trolsi01.cre - Spirit Troll - originally Chaotic Evil trolsi02.cre - Spirit Troll - originally Chaotic Evil trolsn01.cre - Troll - originally Chaotic Evil trolsn02.cre - Troll - originally Chaotic Evil trolsp01.cre - Spectral Troll - originally Chaotic Evil trolsp02.cre - Spectral Troll - originally Chaotic Evil troluo01.cre - Troll - originally Chaotic Evil uddoor01.cre - Drow - originally Lawful Neutral uddoor02.cre - Drow - originally Lawful Neutral uddoor03.cre - Drow - originally Lawful Neutral uddrow06.cre - Ilmryn - originally Chaotic Neutral uddrow12.cre - Drow - originally NONE uddrow14.cre - Drow - originally NONE uddrow15.cre - Drow - originally NONE uddrow18.cre - Drow - originally True Neutral uddrow20.cre - Egg Guard - originally Lawful Neutral uddrow21.cre - Egg Guard - originally Lawful Neutral uddrow23.cre - Drow - originally Lawful Neutral uddrow24.cre - Drow - originally Lawful Neutral uddrow25.cre - Drow - originally Lawful Neutral uddrow26.cre - Drow - originally Lawful Neutral uddrow27.cre - Drow - originally Lawful Neutral uddrow28.cre - Drow - originally Lawful Neutral uddrow29.cre - Drow - originally Lawful Neutral uddrow31.cre - Drow - originally NONE uddrow36.cre - Handmaiden of Lolth - originally True Neutral uddrow37.cre - Drow - originally Lawful Neutral udrunner.cre - Drow - originally Lawful Neutral vampbat.cre - Vampire - originally True Neutral vicg2.cre - Fanatic - originally Neutral Good victown1.cre - Commoner - originally Neutral Good victown2.cre - Commoner - originally Chaotic Good victown3.cre - Nobleman - originally Neutral Good yssold04.cre - Yaga-Shura Elite - originally Lawful Neutral yssold16.cre - Cleric Of Talos - originally NONE Edit: Also check the alignment overview thread. 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berelinde Posted October 28, 2006 Share Posted October 28, 2006 Don't think we know enough about Rumar. OK, he's a cad, so LG is unlikely, but I don't know about CE. But then again, he's engaged in lying and cheating, generally regarded as evil behavior, and he is doing it for his own benefit, which is chaotic. OK, never mind. Link to comment
Drew Posted October 29, 2006 Share Posted October 29, 2006 If cheating on your wife makes you chaotic evil, about 70% of all men would be qualify for the alignment. I always got the impression that Rumar was scared out of his gourd by the cat-fight between Priss and his wife rather than taking pleasure in it.....so the reasoning for making him CE eludes me. Link to comment
Gorilym Posted October 29, 2006 Share Posted October 29, 2006 priss.cre - Priss - originally True Neutral rumar.cre - Rumar - originally True Neutral These changes don't seem right at all. TN is bad, but CE is worse. Chaotic for sure, but CN or even CG would be more suitable. trolde01.cre - Desert Troll - originally Chaotic Evil trolde02.cre - Desert Troll - originally Chaotic Evil trolfr01.cre - Troll - originally Chaotic Evil trolfr02.cre - Troll - originally Chaotic Evil trolgi01.cre - Giant Troll - originally Chaotic Evil trolgi02.cre - Giant Troll - originally Chaotic Evil trolic01.cre - Ice Troll - originally Chaotic Evil trolic02.cre - Ice Troll - originally Chaotic Evil trolic03.cre - Blizzard Troll - originally Chaotic Evil trolic04.cre - Blizzard Troll - originally Chaotic Evil troll01.cre - Troll - originally Chaotic Evil troll02.cre - Troll - originally Chaotic Evil troll03.cre - Troll - originally Chaotic Evil trollens.cre - Giant Troll - originally Chaotic Evil trollsm2.cre - Troll - originally Chaotic Evil trolsi01.cre - Spirit Troll - originally Chaotic Evil trolsi02.cre - Spirit Troll - originally Chaotic Evil trolsn01.cre - Troll - originally Chaotic Evil trolsn02.cre - Troll - originally Chaotic Evil trolsp01.cre - Spectral Troll - originally Chaotic Evil trolsp02.cre - Spectral Troll - originally Chaotic Evil troluo01.cre - Troll - originally Chaotic Evil What am I missing here? These trolls were changed from CE to CE? Link to comment
Gorilym Posted October 29, 2006 Share Posted October 29, 2006 Also, I see no need to change Amalas - CN suits him just fine IMHO. Chaotic and reckless sure, but evil? Link to comment
SimDing0 Posted October 29, 2006 Share Posted October 29, 2006 If cheating on your wife makes you chaotic evil, It would seem to fit the bill of "you're hurting someone and betraying their trust for your own selfish ends". Link to comment
Guest Guest Posted October 29, 2006 Share Posted October 29, 2006 If cheating on your wife makes you chaotic evil, It would seem to fit the bill of "you're hurting someone and betraying their trust for your own selfish ends". Between 45 and 70%** of all men cheat on their wives/girlfriends/etc. By the logic being used to determine Rumar's alignment, 45-70% of all men are chaotic evil. Putting infidelity on par with murder (which also doesn't necessarily make you evil) doesn't work for me. **Depending on which, if any, poll you want to trust. Link to comment
NiGHTMARE Posted October 29, 2006 Share Posted October 29, 2006 Keldorn's wife cheats on him, so by this logic she should be CE too. I'll leave you to ponder how incredibly unlikely a LG man marrying a CE woman would be... . Also, it's possible for the PC to cheat on his love interest with Phaere, so the argument presented above would also suggest an automatic fall to CE for any PC undertaking such an action. Which would be rather silly, to say the least. Link to comment
berelinde Posted October 29, 2006 Share Posted October 29, 2006 As a female, I don't want to believe that 45 to 70% of all men cheat on their significant others. But that is straying from the topic. Lies and deception are not good acts, no matter how you apply the moral code. If infidelity was a moral act, people would not feel guilt about it. The question becomes: does that single act of infidelity define the person? For most people who have committed an act of infidelity, whatever their number, I would like to think that that does not define their personalities. But for poor Rumar, that is all we know about him. We are never given the opportunity to see him working in the Athkatla docks, building houses for the homeless, or dishing out soup in the slums. He might be a prince with a significant flaw, but all we are shown is the flaw. And he is anxious if you talk to him about being caught, so he knows it's wrong, but is doing it anyway. He is afraid if you bring Tiana into the picture, but who wouldn't be? Sure, she represents the security he endangers, but she is also a formidable woman! I'd classify *her* alignment as "neutral had-it-up-to-here". Link to comment
CamDawg Posted October 29, 2006 Author Share Posted October 29, 2006 But for poor Rumar, that is all we know about him. We are never given the opportunity to see him working in the Athkatla docks, building houses for the homeless, or dishing out soup in the slums. He might be a prince with a significant flaw, but all we are shown is the flaw. He could also kick stray kittens; this is why Bioware based alignments in BG based strictly on what the characters did in the game, and it's the same standard we're using for BG2. For me, the striking bit about Rumar is his seeming indifference to his wife's feelings--compare and contrast Rumar to Keldorn's wife Maria. Mistakes can be made by anyone; showing remorse (or not) and learning from them can reveal a lot about a person's actual character. For me, there's also a different matter for cheating on a spouse as opposed to a significant other. They're both scummy, but the former is more egregious as it breaks a vow taken before your-deity-of-choice. (Well, at least presumably--my knowledge of Faerunian marriage ceremonies is a bit spotty. ) That being said, I'm still on the fence with a shift to CE. Link to comment
SimDing0 Posted October 30, 2006 Share Posted October 30, 2006 Between 45 and 70%** of all men cheat on their wives/girlfriends/etc. I contend that this argument stems from its unfortunate wide social acceptance rather than a lack of moral dubiousness. Turn back a few centuries and you find a high percentage of people indulging in slavery--this makes it no less evil. The argument you should be making is whether this sole demonstration of behaviour is enough to base an alignment on. Make it. Also, it's possible for the PC to cheat on his love interest with Phaere, so the argument presented above would also suggest an automatic fall to CE for any PC undertaking such an action. Which would be rather silly, to say the least. A fall to CE, given the nature of the game's default alignment system, is inappropriate, yes. I believe I implement a Virtue penalty here, however. Link to comment
devSin Posted October 30, 2006 Share Posted October 30, 2006 We can save space by chomping out those PRIES* CREs (no, they're not all "Zorl," and yes, none of them are used). Link to comment
Guest Guest Posted November 1, 2006 Share Posted November 1, 2006 In all seriousness, I still don't see a compelling reason to alter Rumar's alignment. The question we should be asking isn't whether or not CE makes sense but rather whether it is concievable that a TN person would do what he does. I consider it perfectly feasible that a TN character could cheat on a spouse. Seriously, giving Rumar the same alignment you would give to murderers and brigands just because he's been fucking around? It's not like he's a pirate...... Link to comment
Drew Posted November 1, 2006 Share Posted November 1, 2006 Per the (3e) Players handbook: Chaotic evil characters do whatever their greed, hatred, and lust for destruction drives them to do. They are hot-tempered, vicious and arbitrarily violent. They are simply out for whatever they can get, and are ruthless and brutal in their ways.I think you have to do something a little worse than cheat on your wife to qualify for Chaotic Evil alignment. Link to comment
CamDawg Posted November 1, 2006 Author Share Posted November 1, 2006 Per the (3e) Players handbook:Chaotic evil characters do whatever their greed, hatred, and lust for destruction drives them to do. They are hot-tempered, vicious and arbitrarily violent. They are simply out for whatever they can get, and are ruthless and brutal in their ways.I think you have to do something a little worse than cheat on your wife to qualify for Chaotic Evil alignment. Rather than the description from a rule set that isn't even used for the game, the BG2 description may be more relevant (and it still makes your point): CHAOTIC EVIL: These characters are the bane of all that is good and organized. Chaotic evil characters are motivated by the desire for personal gain and pleasure. They see absolutely nothing wrong with taking whatever they want by whatever means possible. Laws and governments are the tools of weaklings unable to fend for themselves. The strong have the right to take what they want, and the weak are there to be exploited. When chaotic evil characters band together, they are not motivated by a desire to cooperate, but rather to oppose powerful enemies. Such a group can be held together only by a strong leader capable of bullying his underlings into obedience. Since leadership is based on raw power, a leader is likely to be replaced at the first sign of weakness by anyone who can take his position away from him by any method. Bloodthirsty buccaneers and monsters of low Intelligence are fine examples of chaotic evil personalities. Link to comment
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