Despair Posted November 30, 2006 Share Posted November 30, 2006 bazeye01.cre - Iycanth the Mad - originally True Neutral bazeye02.cre - Iycanth the Mad - originally True Neutral I'm curious about the change of Iycanth the Mad to CE. His actions don't seem to be Evil, and they're only Chaotic if you believe that madness automatically equates to Chaotic. I think he puts it best: Lord Abazigal is my patron. If he wants to take over the world and slaughter all of his siblings, that's no business of mine. Sure, I'm developing a super army of deadly orbs for him but it's really not my place to judge the morality of it all. I am merely a student of arcane lore. A generalisation of one form of moral Neutrality is not being concerned with the wellbeing of strangers - a good person wants to help strangers, an evil person wants to harm them, and a neutral person is not terribly bothered. As Iycanth says, he doesn't actually take any pleasure from killing people etc., he just enjoys creating the orbs. I also agree about Priss and Rumar; there's nothing remotely evil in their actions. Link to comment
devSin Posted January 12, 2007 Share Posted January 12, 2007 c6kngt3, gnollhp1, gron, every pries* are unused. Don't bother with plyogre. Link to comment
CamDawg Posted January 25, 2007 Author Share Posted January 25, 2007 Chnges for v2: c6kngt3.cre - Storm Knight - originally True Neutral gnollhp1.cre - Gnoll - originally Chaotic Neutral gron.cre - Theshal - originally Chaotic Good plyogre.cre - Ogre - originally NONE pries10a.cre - Zorl - originally NONE pries10c.cre - Zorl - originally Lawful Evil pries12b.cre - Zeela - originally True Neutral pries6a.cre - Zorl - originally NONE pries6b.cre - Zorl - originally NONE pries6c.cre - Zorl - originally NONE pries8a.cre - Zorl - originally NONE pries8b.cre - Zorl - originally NONE pries8c.cre - Zorl - originally NONE Dropped; unused. Well, plyogre is used, but it's a polymorph template so the alignment is irrelevant. kptrol01.cre - Troll - originally Chaotic Evil kptrol02.cre - Troll - originally Chaotic Evil kptrol03.cre - Troll - originally Chaotic Evil kptrol04.cre - Troll - originally Chaotic Evil kptrol05.cre - Troll - originally Chaotic Evil kptrol06.cre - Troll - originally Chaotic Evil trolde01.cre - Desert Troll - originally Chaotic Evil trolde02.cre - Desert Troll - originally Chaotic Evil trolfr01.cre - Troll - originally Chaotic Evil trolfr02.cre - Troll - originally Chaotic Evil trolgi01.cre - Giant Troll - originally Chaotic Evil trolgi02.cre - Giant Troll - originally Chaotic Evil trolic01.cre - Ice Troll - originally Chaotic Evil trolic02.cre - Ice Troll - originally Chaotic Evil trolic03.cre - Blizzard Troll - originally Chaotic Evil trolic04.cre - Blizzard Troll - originally Chaotic Evil troll01.cre - Troll - originally Chaotic Evil troll02.cre - Troll - originally Chaotic Evil troll03.cre - Troll - originally Chaotic Evil trollens.cre - Giant Troll - originally Chaotic Evil trollsm2.cre - Troll - originally Chaotic Evil trolsi01.cre - Spirit Troll - originally Chaotic Evil trolsi02.cre - Spirit Troll - originally Chaotic Evil trolsn01.cre - Troll - originally Chaotic Evil trolsn02.cre - Troll - originally Chaotic Evil trolsp01.cre - Spectral Troll - originally Chaotic Evil trolsp02.cre - Spectral Troll - originally Chaotic Evil troluo01.cre - Troll - originally Chaotic Evil Redundantly dropped as redundant. rumar.cre - Rumar - originally True Neutral priss.cre - Priss - originally True Neutral Rumar and Priss suck. My own personal opinion is that both are evil--he's willfully cheating and she shows no compunction about killing Tiana. However, there's more than enough concern here for me to move these two out of the core changes and into OBC. acolyte1.cre - Talon Zogas - originally True Neutral ar18prie.cre - Priest of Cyric - originally Lawful Evil bazeye01.cre - Iycanth the Mad - originally True Neutral bazeye02.cre - Iycanth the Mad - originally True Neutral c6drow1.cre - Drow - originally Lawful Neutral caehan.cre - Caehan - originally Chaotic Good chang02.cre - Angelo - originally Neutral Good cldad.cre - Talon Nirkhas - originally True Neutral clstkn01.cre - Storm Knight - originally True Neutral cltalp01.cre - Weather Master - originally Lawful Good daqilue.cre - Qilue - originally NONE dvampfl.cre - Vampire - originally Chaotic Neutral eletro02.cre - Troll - originally NONE gnlcap01.cre - Gnoll Captain - originally Chaotic Neutral gnleli01.cre - Gnoll Elite - originally Chaotic Neutral gnlsla01.cre - Gnoll Slasher - originally Chaotic Neutral gnlvet01.cre - Gnoll Veteran - originally Chaotic Neutral gnlwar01.cre - Gnoll - originally Chaotic Neutral gnoll01.cre - Gnoll - originally Chaotic Neutral gnollsu.cre - Gnoll Elite - originally Chaotic Neutral gpmage1.cre - N'ashtar - originally Chaotic Good gppri1.cre - Chandrilla - originally Chaotic Good gpsimb.cre - Simbja - originally NONE hlketta.cre - Ketta - originally Chaotic Neutral hlketta2.cre - Ketta - originally Chaotic Neutral hlskull.cre - Golden Skull - originally True Neutral hobarc01.cre - Hobgoblin Archer - originally NONE hobarc02.cre - Hobgoblin Archer - originally NONE hobcap01.cre - Hobgoblin Captain - originally NONE hobeli01.cre - Hobgoblin Elite - originally NONE hobwar01.cre - Hobgoblin Warrior - originally NONE hobwiz01.cre - Hobgoblin Wizard - originally NONE jaerto1.cre - Jarden - originally Lawful Good jaerto2.cre - Turg - originally Lawful Good jaerto3.cre - Tamile - originally Chaotic Neutral jaerto4.cre - Wurn - originally Lawful Good jaertof.cre - Ertof Dand - originally Lawful Good jaga2.cre - Kail - originally Lawful Neutral jaga4.cre - Iko - originally Neutral Evil kalah.cre - Kalah - originally Chaotic Neutral kalah2.cre - Kalah - originally Chaotic Neutral kaol.cre - Kaol - originally True Neutral kaypal01.cre - Anarg - originally Chaotic Neutral nalla.cre - Stormherald Nallabir - originally Chaotic Good obshal01.cre - Entu - originally Lawful Neutral obshal03.cre - Necre - originally Lawful Neutral obshal06.cre - Taibela - originally True Neutral ogre01.cre - Ogre - originally NONE plass02.cre - Assassin - originally Lawful Good plass03.cre - Assassin - originally Lawful Good plass04.cre - Assassin - originally Lawful Good ppduel2.cre - Dirbish the Black - originally Lawful Neutral pptiax.cre - Tiax - originally True Neutral pptiax2.cre - Tiax - originally True Neutral reband01.cre - Bandit - originally Chaotic Neutral reband02.cre - Bandit - originally Chaotic Neutral rorcs01.cre - Orog - originally NONE ruffian.cre - Amalas - originally Chaotic Neutral sahkng01.cre - King Ixilthetocal - originally Lawful Evil sahkng02.cre - King Ixilthetocal - originally Lawful Evil samia.cre - Samia - originally Chaotic Neutral sarbul04.cre - Gromnir Soldier - originally Lawful Neutral sarbul05.cre - Gromnir Soldier - originally Lawful Neutral sarbul06.cre - Il-Khan Soldier - originally Lawful Neutral sarbul07.cre - Il-Khan Soldier - originally Lawful Neutral scyarryl.cre - Talon Yarryl - originally True Neutral sevpat01.cre - Mencar Pebblecrusher - originally Chaotic Neutral sevpat04.cre - Smaeluv Orcslicer - originally Lawful Neutral slapri.cre - Priest of Cyric - originally NONE suna.cre - Suna Seni - originally Lawful Neutral talkni01.cre - Storm Knight - originally True Neutral talkni02.cre - Storm Knight - originally True Neutral talmiss.cre - Mistress Ada - originally True Neutral talmiss2.cre - Mistress Ada - originally True Neutral talvilon.cre - Acolyte Vilon - originally True Neutral tanthf01.cre - Rune Assassin - originally Chaotic Neutral telsuc1.cre - Alu-Fiend - originally Lawful Neutral teltief3.cre - Tiefling - originally Chaotic Neutral trevil01.cre - Lord Khellon Menold - originally NONE uddoor01.cre - Drow - originally Lawful Neutral uddoor02.cre - Drow - originally Lawful Neutral uddoor03.cre - Drow - originally Lawful Neutral uddrow06.cre - Ilmryn - originally Chaotic Neutral uddrow12.cre - Drow - originally NONE uddrow14.cre - Drow - originally NONE uddrow15.cre - Drow - originally NONE uddrow18.cre - Drow - originally True Neutral uddrow20.cre - Egg Guard - originally Lawful Neutral uddrow21.cre - Egg Guard - originally Lawful Neutral uddrow23.cre - Drow - originally Lawful Neutral uddrow24.cre - Drow - originally Lawful Neutral uddrow25.cre - Drow - originally Lawful Neutral uddrow26.cre - Drow - originally Lawful Neutral uddrow27.cre - Drow - originally Lawful Neutral uddrow28.cre - Drow - originally Lawful Neutral uddrow29.cre - Drow - originally Lawful Neutral uddrow31.cre - Drow - originally NONE uddrow36.cre - Handmaiden of Lolth - originally True Neutral uddrow37.cre - Drow - originally Lawful Neutral udrunner.cre - Drow - originally Lawful Neutral vampbat.cre - Vampire - originally True Neutral vicg2.cre - Fanatic - originally Neutral Good victown1.cre - Commoner - originally Neutral Good victown2.cre - Commoner - originally Chaotic Good victown3.cre - Nobleman - originally Neutral Good yssold04.cre - Yaga-Shura Elite - originally Lawful Neutral yssold16.cre - Cleric Of Talos - originally NONE These remain as changes to CE in v2. As for Iycanth, what can I say? By his own admission, he's creating a 'super army of deadly orbs' for Abazigal. Knowingly supplying an evil person with the tools to better conduct their evil acts is, IMO, itself also evil (crude analogy: compare to knowingly sell nukes to, say, a James Bond villain). He doesn't seem to be enslaved or ignorant of Abazigal's true nature. I don't see any other mitigating circumstances here, though more discussion is always welcome (for any of these, not just Iycanth). Link to comment
CamDawg Posted January 25, 2007 Author Share Posted January 25, 2007 Whoops, should have added that: trskin03.cre - Rejiek Hidesman - originally Neutral Good trskin06.cre - Darsidian Moor - originally Lawful Neutral trskin3b.cre - Rejiek Hidesman - originally Neutral Good trskin6b.cre - Darsidian Moor - originally Lawful Neutral trskind2.cre - Darsidian Moor - originally Lawful Neutral These have been added to the CE changes. They were originally being changed by Fixpack to NE, but they're being changed to CE in v2 based on the feedback in the NE thread. Link to comment
Gorilym Posted January 25, 2007 Share Posted January 25, 2007 Chnges for v2: rumar.cre - Rumar - originally True Neutral priss.cre - Priss - originally True Neutral Rumar and Priss suck. My own personal opinion is that both are evil--he's willfully cheating and she shows no compunction about killing Tiana. However, there's more than enough concern here for me to move these two out of the core changes and into OBC. *grumble* ...I guess this is a necessary compromise though. Whoops, should have added that: trskin03.cre - Rejiek Hidesman - originally Neutral Good trskin06.cre - Darsidian Moor - originally Lawful Neutral trskin3b.cre - Rejiek Hidesman - originally Neutral Good trskin6b.cre - Darsidian Moor - originally Lawful Neutral trskind2.cre - Darsidian Moor - originally Lawful Neutral These have been added to the CE changes. They were originally being changed by Fixpack to NE, but they're being changed to CE in v2 based on the feedback in the NE thread. What about the Shade Lord? In the NE thread you stated that he was being moved to CE along with the skin dancers? Link to comment
CamDawg Posted January 25, 2007 Author Share Posted January 25, 2007 Ooh, missed that. Good catch; shadel is now on the list for CE as well. Link to comment
devSin Posted January 25, 2007 Share Posted January 25, 2007 Rumar and Priss - good choice. I don't care enough to fight about it, but marking the VICTOWNs CE is similarly dumb. SUNA.CRE is unused. CHANG02 is the alternate "good" Angelo (used if the PC is evil). His alignment shouldn't be changed. Link to comment
CamDawg Posted January 25, 2007 Author Share Posted January 25, 2007 suna and chang02 are both rolled back. The victowns should make a good discussion--these are the four townsfolk egging on the fanatics trying to burn Viconia at the stake. (The fourth and final townie here, victown4, is originally LN and not changed by Fixpack). Of the three fanatics who are doing the burning (and fight the party if they free Viconia), one is NG (vicg2, changed to CE by Fixpack, above) and the other two are LE. All three are fanatics of Beshaba, a CE deity. Go Bioware! Link to comment
devSin Posted January 25, 2007 Share Posted January 25, 2007 The victowns should make a good discussion--these are the four townsfolk egging on the fanatics trying to burn Viconia at the stake. (The fourth and final townie here, victown4, is originally LN and not changed by Fixpack). Of the three fanatics who are doing the burning (and fight the party if they free Viconia), one is NG (vicg2, changed to CE by Fixpack, above) and the other two are LE. All three are fanatics of Beshaba, a CE deity. Go Bioware! Only the leader mentions Beshaba. The ranger-ish fanatic is the product of incest (like he says, the drow killed his father and brother), so I don't pay much attention to him (I probably make him CN or something). The third fanatic was going to be a real guard watching the show at one point (he has some fun dialogue) but must have been hit with the generic stick. The townspeople bother me because standing around waiting for the evil to die doesn't imply evil. Imagine if it were Matron Ardulace tied to the stake. You'd probably stand and watch her burn too, but does that make you evil? What if it were a bunch of LG paladins putting the smackdown on more or less defenseless (but still CE) ogres? Would you stand up and say, "Ooh! Ooh! Chaotic evil. Evil. EVIL!" I think not. They're just dumb pissant townsfolk with nothing better to do than burn witches and heretics. I just want to know why Jaheira tells you to let her into the party but then acts like a bitch for the rest of the game... Link to comment
BigRob Posted January 26, 2007 Share Posted January 26, 2007 Agreed, the watching townsfolk are probably not evil. They could be, of course, but I figure it does no harm to leave them alone. Link to comment
Gorilym Posted January 26, 2007 Share Posted January 26, 2007 While I agree that the victownies are not obvious CE material, I think leaving them as CG and NG is more or less equally arbitrary. Perhaps move them to TN instead? Just a suggestion. Link to comment
Caedwyr Posted January 26, 2007 Share Posted January 26, 2007 I can see the victownies being pretty much any alignment but LG or LN, as Viconia is getting burned by a lynch mob, and they tend not to follow little things like the law. Link to comment
CamDawg Posted January 27, 2007 Author Share Posted January 27, 2007 For now, I'm going to punt on the victownies. I'm moving them to the OBC component as CE, pending more discussion, as I want to freeze code so I can package v2 and update the docs. Link to comment
CamDawg Posted February 21, 2007 Author Share Posted February 21, 2007 Cam: Priss, Rumar, and Tiana (all TN) are the three in the lover's quarrel at the Copper Coronet. There were a lot of folks that argued that the philandering Rumar and the two girls who were willing to kill each other should be some flavor of evil. David Gaider: Certainly the actions they took might be, but as an alignment? As something they do on a regular basis? No, I highly doubt that. Obviouslythey're not good, but I wouldn't say they're evil either. Link to comment
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