Reputation Modification in BG1 NPC

[cmorgan]

OK - you had better send a note to Cam referencing the post/problem - in the meantime, I will copy/paste the block!

[EiriktheScald]

I'm entering the tail-end of this discussion, I know, but what is the point of rep anyway? It seems a lot of people try to circumvent the whole rep system. If you're trying to force two characters to "get along" in your party, doesn't that in itself have a "cheapening" affect in the game? IMO, I think the real problem lies in the alignment selected for these chacters. In pnp dnd "Neutral" characters were very rare. Who do you know in RL that behaves this way? Jaheira comes across as a neutral-good alignment to me anyway. And if you put a "good" character and an "evil" character in your party, what do you expect to happen? Although, one thing I never liked about the rep system was the modifiers for concluding certain quests. It seems you were punished for being consistent in your actions. Anymore, I just ignore these quests altogether.

[Domi]

Well, there is actually a temple to an evil goddess in BG1 - the Umberlee's one. How about changing a script there so that the donations to Umberlee actually lower the reputation rather than rise it?

[cmorgan]

That sounds pretty cool - I will have to do some investigating (I don't even know if that is an area script, a store, or what!!).

[jastey]

This is developping nicely I see. I was unable to work on this today, I am sorry, but I haven't given up hope to show more productivity than only giving the original idea.

[cmorgan]

I'm entering the tail-end of this discussion, I know, but what is the point of rep anyway?... Jaheira comes across as a neutral-good alignment to me anyway. And if you put a "good" character and an "evil" character in your party, what do you expect to happen? ...

 

I tend to agree with you, EiriktheScald; the reputation idea is a good one, but awkwardly implemented. That is why I like SimDing0's Virtue concept. Fortunately or unfortunately, the implementation of reputation in BG1 is what we have to work with in Tutu, though - fortunate in that while it is somewhat silly, it is very clear (add one for good, subtract one for bad, and who knows,perhaps some of your party members wander off!) unfortunate in that it really doesn't make much overall sense (see the threads surrounding the development of the Virtue mod for BG2). I think without using the Rep Discount tweak, some serious modding of Jaheira to match her in-game NG actions, and a good dose of role-playing self-discipline, the game rewards goody-two-shoes players like me far too handsomely, and leaves those half-elven Mage/Assassins in a far worse position then any PnP campaign would expect. Then we came along and added more reputation changes based on in-game actions... and made the underlying annoyance much more obvious .

 

I also agree with you about the "what do you expect to happen", for the most part. If we just had the original BG1 stuff, I can see simply saying "live with it". The problem I see is the dropping out in the middle of quests as a response for doing *exactly* what the NPC wants CHARNAME to do, which is tied to several of the Project materials. The authors took pains not to overdo rewards (though there is some disagreement about the possible overpoweredness of BG1 NPC items ). They also took pains to make adjustments to reputation as part of the consequences. I personally expect Viconia to end up dead by Kivan's hand if I force her into my LG party; if he doesn't eradicate the evil, my Paladin will resort to conversion "by the sword" (something about friends close and enemies closer, until you can eradicate them...)

 

I think what we are attempting here, whether it ends up as a part of the actual project or as a separate mini-mod (still need a decision on this one from Jastey, Domi, Kulyok, Andyr, and any Master Project Authors around/available), is really designed to offset something the Project unintentionally introduced. We didn't mean to screw up people's games, but adding the reputation changes that accurately reflect in-game player actions resulted in massively increasing the chance of NPCs bailing out on neutral/evil players "playing along" with the NPC and made it extremely likely that LG CHARNAMEs played appropriately would drive out neutral "canon" NPCs expected by Bioware to remain with the party from the beginning of BG1 through BG2.

[berelinde]

One of the other consequences of reputation is that it seriously affects the romances. Shar-Teel is especially hard to please, unless you like killing innocents or being hunted by the Flaming Fist. It is much easier to maintain a good rep than a bad one.

 

Edit: of course, I have a fun new game. Now I try to see how many in-game days it takes to reach 20. It adds a nice level of challenge.

[Guest Guest]

When you're romancing someone, it's kinda hard to stay in the mood when they tell you "you're actions are not that of a warrior born!"

 

I don't fault the author's; it's those blasted "rewards" for staying true to your alignment!

[EiriktheScald]

Aw, nuts -- forgot to log in. That was me above ^

[berelinde]

The Reputation Modification Mod was/will be made for you, man.

 

It does stink, and it's worse because initially and throughout, she has at lease *some* reputation requirements.

 

One of my major headaches writing Gavin/Branwen banters has always been "She's neutral. Gavin doesn't dig neutral. Yes, he has every reason to like her, but she's neutral. That doesn't mean they can't be nice to each other. But he isn't thrilled with neutral."

 

Here's the short version of why you need it: npcs react predictably to reputation, but their personalities are sometimes out of sync with their alignment. In the case of Branwen, especially, she likes a guy that people think well of, but she is neutral. No way around that. In the case of Edwin, for example, I could see him fawning all over a party with a high rep, except he's evil. In the case of Ajantis, he expects someone to be good *and* to have everyone saying nice things about them.

 

Maybe someday there will be a Virtue for Tutu. In the meantime, reputation is all we've got, so let's get going on the reputation mod. I'm going to put Gavin aside for a bit and come up with some NPC responses, dammit.

[EiriktheScald]

Why, berelinde, I've never seen you react this way! Such emotion -- I think I like it.

[berelinde]

*berelinde frantically cutting and pasting wiki*

[berelinde]

Still can't post in wiki. Not worried about it. Should have been in bed 29 minutes ago.

 

== ~_BMINSC~ IF ~InParty("minsc") !StateCheck("minsc",CD_STATE_NOTVALID)~ THEN ~True heroes like Minsc and Boo need not the words of puny bards to sing their praises! <CHARNAME>, pay him no heed. Boo fears he offers only empty promises.~

== ~_BDYNAH~ IF ~InParty("dynaheir") !StateCheck("dynaheir",CD_STATE_NOTVALID) InParty("minsc") !StateCheck("minsc",CD_STATE_NOTVALID)~ THEN ~Minsc, never was harm done by a cautious word, but mine ears doth ring at the false tones of this bard. How one could hope to win acclaim beyond one's measure, I know not, but I hope that thou wouldst tread carefully.~

== ~_BDYNAH~ IF ~InParty("dynaheir") !StateCheck("dynaheir",CD_STATE_NOTVALID)~ THEN ~Mine ears doth ring at the false tones of this bard. How one could hope to win acclaim beyond one's measure, I know not, but I hope that thou wouldst tread carefully.~

== ~_BJAHEI~ IF ~InParty("jaheira") !StateCheck("jaheira",CD_STATE_NOTVALID)~ THEN ~Your coin would be better spent learning news of our foes. Balance demands that I say neither yea nor nay, but gold demands spending. Do with it what you will.~

== ~_BXANNN~ IF ~InParty("xan") !StateCheck("xan",CD_STATE_NOTVALID)~ THEN ~Take his offer or no, it matters not. We should never survive to reap the benefits, say he weal or woe.~

== ~_BELDOT~ IF ~InParty("eldoth") !StateCheck("eldoth",CD_STATE_NOTVALID)~ THEN ~I could provide similar services with far more skill, but I am afraid that Master Samule here has more of a... local connection. Perhaps he can sway our reputation on the Sword Coast.~ //left unchanged

== ~_BKIVAN~ IF ~InParty("kivan") !StateCheck("kivan",CD_STATE_NOTVALID)~ THEN ~What matters reputation when there are foul deeds to avenge? <CHARNAME>, send the fool away. We need not such frivolous counsel.~

== ~_BSAFAN~ IF ~InParty("safana") !StateCheck("safana",CD_STATE_NOTVALID)~ THEN ~Listen to the bard, <CHARNAME>. I would not wish to sway your hand, but not everyone knows the company you keep. Surely, there might even be a few men of Faerun, even, who have not heard of my beauty. Surely such poor, lost souls should be at least offered the opportunity to hear the tale.~

== ~_BTIAX~ IF ~InParty("tiax") !StateCheck("tiax",CD_STATE_NOTVALID)~ THEN ~Tiax needs no bards! Tiax needs no minstrel or foolish person to sing of his glory! Tiax will rule all! And then, let them weep who did not forsee as much.~

== ~_BEDWIN~ IF ~InParty("edwin") !StateCheck("edwin",CD_STATE_NOTVALID)~ THEN ~Money spent on words aways pays for itself. (Not that these simians could understand the subtleties of masterful manipulation of public opinion).~//No alteration recommended.

== ~_BAJANT~ IF ~InParty("ajantis") !StateCheck("minsc",CD_STATE_NOTVALID)~ THEN ~<CHARNAME>, the man offers lies and deceipt in exchange for our good name. Do not humor him. Good deeds are their own rewards, as you know well. Come, let us seek a more legitimate way to earn repute.~ //the concept that someone would actually seek to *lower* their reputation would probably never occur to Ajantis.

== ~_BKAGAI~ IF ~InParty("kagain") !StateCheck("kagain",CD_STATE_NOTVALID)~ THEN ~It never hurts to let th' competition know y' mean business.~ //perfect as stands

== ~_BMONTA~ IF ~InParty("montaron") !StateCheck("montaron",CD_STATE_NOTVALID)~ THEN ~Nah. Let 'em wonder, it will make 'em less wary, when th' time comes.~

== ~_BGARRI~ IF ~InParty("garrick") !StateCheck("garrick",CD_STATE_NOTVALID)~ THEN ~Why, what a marvellous idea. We should go around, singing of our own deeds, and who would be the wiser?~

== ~_BBRANW~ IF ~InParty("branwen") !StateCheck("branwen",CD_STATE_NOTVALID)~ THEN ~Bah! Such manipulation is not worth our attention. Our deeds will speak for us loudly enough. The only judge whose opinion matters is well above the gossip-mongering of bards.~

== ~_BIMOEN~ IF ~InParty("imoen") !StateCheck("imoen",CD_STATE_NOTVALID)~ THEN ~Wow, <CHARNAME>, we could be famous without ever leaving home. Just think of what old Puffguts would say if he could hear about Imoen the Great and her bold party of intrepid adventureres. *sigh* It is an attractive offer.~

== ~_BXZAR~ IF ~InParty("xzar") !StateCheck("xzar",CD_STATE_NOTVALID)~ THEN ~Odd, but fame is rarely beneficial in my line of work. I would as soon keep it on the hush.~

== ~_BKIVAN~ IF ~InParty("kivan") !StateCheck("kivan",CD_STATE_NOTVALID)~ THEN ~Fame? Pfaugh! What care I for the words of bards when all that ever mattered was broken and lost! Keep your pretty words, bard, or your ugly ones. No words matter, now, only deeds.~

== ~_BYESLI~ IF ~InParty("yeslick") ~StateCheck("yeslick",CD_STATE_NOTVALID)~ THEN ~Bah! Ye bards and yer words. Keep 'em. Let 'em answer t' me hammer instead!~

== ~_BQUAYLE~ IF ~InParty("quayle") ~StateCheck("quayle",CD_STATE_NOTVALID)~ THEN ~<CHARNAME>, heed his words. I have advised you thus often enough myself, though you heeded me not. Let word be spread of Quayle the Brilliant, and his worty band.~

== ~_BXZAR~ IF ~InParty("xzar") StateCheck("xzar",CD_STATE_NOTVALID)~ THEN ~Mummy always said it paid to make friends in the right places.~

== ~_BKHALID~ IF ~InParty("khalid") ~StateCheck("khalid",CD_STATE_NOTVALID)~ THEN ~I d-don't know, <CHARNAME>. It sounds so... easy, and I've never t-trusted anything that sounded easy.~

== ~_BSKIE~ IF ~InParty("skie") ~StateCheck("skie",CD_STATE_NOTVALID)~ THEN ~I don't know, <CHARNAME>. It sounds like a lovely idea. Instant fame or notoriety, but without the hard work.~

== ~_BCORAN~ IF ~InParty("coran") ~StateCheck("coran",CD_STATE_NOTVALID)~ THEN ~Ah, but that's the cheater's way. Without the adventure, what is the use of fame?~

//Dammit. Still 3 short

== ~_BBRANW~ IF ~InParty("branwen") ~StateCheck("branwen",CD_STATE_NOTVALID)~ THEN ~Fools. Do you think you can cheat the god of valor? Pay the minstrel what you will, but you pay gold for brass.~

//Faldorn-no improvement possible-loved the jackal line

 

// can't count, but I'm ok with that

== ~BB!GAVIN~ IF ~InParty("B!GAVIN") StateCheck("B!GAVIN",CD_STATE_NOTVALID)~ ~Would you lie to gain renown? I would not have expected that of you. I will not offer counsel, but I will offer caution: don't ask others to speak for you. You will never *really* know the motivation of the messenger.~

 

Party reactions, put them wherever you want. You will note that in some cases, they differ from other author content. Maybe we see the npc differntly, maybe we just took it in a new direction. That happens.

[cmorgan]

Well, we also have at least 3 opportunities to comment right now. I know I have conversations on different days that say similar things different ways; I will grab these and toss them in, and we can always move/change them!

 

Anything I put up is wide open, folks -- you can tell the stuff that is mine. It is the stuff that is stilted, slightly awkward, and overwordy. The rest is either berelindes or (if I can get my cut/paste acyion going) I am going to toss Kulyok's Viconia line up there, too. Help out! Help yourself!

 

Edit: divided your banters into 3 categories based on who I think might be around at each "first encounter"; feel free to re-edit. I split them between the three bards and added Kulyok's Viconia banter (I wanna put that in every time; perhaps we need to just put them all in with random numbers and conditions, so that every NPC has a fair chance to make commentary?

 

We could use more window dressing, folks, for NPC responses to raising/lowering reputation, but as is we have enough to actually generate a working minimod. The "evil temple" and "roving blackmailing evil bard" ideas has not yet been tossed around yet, either.

[Kulyok]

Oooh, I guess Berelinde did it all, really. My compliments.