Caedwyr

I'm working my way through the Readme for this mod and I have a few thoughts that might make this play nicer with other mods/kits/classes and generally be a more elegant integration with the game.

1. The Revised Bard is practically a new base class and Might & Guile already supports having the old-style bard and kits as well as the new Revised one.  I would go further and stake out your own class identity with this and its kits.  This would mean that it is easier to want to use the Revised Bard components and would play nicer with other bard kit mods.  Possible ideas for the base class name include: Archon, Echo, Warlord (I see a lot of similarities in how the abilities work conceptually), Luminary,  Maestro, Spark.  I'd also rename the sub-kits as well to help improve the unique identity and make this fit more elegantly with other kit mods.  There are overlaps with existing kits and other mod added kits that don't really need to be there.  I'm happy to help come up with names/flavour text if you need a hand with any of this. 
2. Further on the Revised Bard. Turning these into a series of kits/class with kits as I suggest above, would also mean that it's easier to just install the Bard Kits for Components 450-490 alongside the Revised Bard (or whatever name you go with) and its kits.  There's some duplication of abilities and conceptual space between kits, but Bioware already walked down that road over two decades ago.  There's at least as much difference between the Revised Bard version of the Gallant and the Gallant Kit for the Bard as there is between the Berserker fighter kit and the Barbarian Class from Bioware.
3. Sword and Fist also includes a Hexblade.  If you aren't completely set on the name, I would suggest using your own name for the kit under Revised Bard
4. Another thought as I work my way through the readme.  You've already added a bunch of multi-class classes/kits with the spellfilcher, loremaster, etc.  Treating the Revised Bard class/kits in a similar manner will end up being a lot more elegant and a better integration with this game and other mods.
5. In your sample install order, it would be helpful to show where you might want to insert Refinements.  There's some text discussion later on in the individual components, but it's a bit tricky to tease out right now.
6. I'd include a description of the Alchemist Kit in the readme, make it an optional subcomponent of the Feat System & HLA component if it needs those resources, or standalone if it does not.  Note that there is another Alchemist Kit out there which is for mages and is more focused around bomb throwing like the Pathfinder class.  For more elegance, since I have your ear and not @semiticgod's at the moment, I'd suggest just using the name "Chemist" for your kit.  It has associations with the Chemist class from Final Fantasy Tactics, which already has the rogue connonations and many of the abilities could be flavoured as being non-magical, or relatively non-magical in a magical world.
7. The Feat System & HLA component ends with a note that it is mutually exclusive with Rogue Rebalancing's Thief Kit revisions and a few other mods.  For your sanity's sake in bug complaints, I'd add a check to skip this component if those other mods are already installed (if you don't do this already). 
8. Also for the Feat System & HLA component, I'd put text up near the top listing what classes/kits this modifies.  It makes it much easier for potential users to figure out what mod incompatibilities/interactions they should be aware of.
9. Revised Archers.  A check to skip this component if other mods like the "Improved Archer" mod is installed would probably be useful.  Also in the documentation, I'd put the information about what kits this is applied to right up near the start in bold text.
10. Components 230 and 235 probably should be organized as subcomponents of a higher level component "Bioware Kit Modifications".  It makes it easier to understand that these are changes to existing Bioware kits.
11. Improved Ranger. Do the changes here apply to all Ranger Kits as well (including modded ones installed before Might & Guile), just the Trueclass Ranger, or just the Trueclass Ranger and Bioware kits?
12. Components 250, 260, 275, and part of 420  are all modifications to "Bioware Kits" and should probably be sorted with Item 9 above.  Note that you may want to include autoskip if it detects Artisan Kitpack - Revised Kensai,
13. Continuing on, I'm realizing that it probably makes sense to have high level components for new kits, which would include the multiclass kits (since my understanding is that the multiclasses are essentially Trueclasses and can have their own kits).  This would include the renamed Revised Bard and its 9 kits, the Alchemist (Chemist) if it can be split off into its own kit, the multiclass kits from Component 220, the Corsair Kit, Marksman Kit, Elven Archer Kit, Halfling Slinger Kit, Mage Hunter Kit, Barbarian Ranger Kit, Sniper Kit, Scout Kit, Jongleur Kit, Gallant Kit, Meistersinger Kit, Loresinger of Milil
14. The Halfling Slinger Kit should probably say "Halfling Slinger Ranger Kit" to follow the pattern of the other added kits.
15. Is the Barbarian Ranger Kit a Ranger Kit, or a Barbarian/Ranger multiclass kit?  If it is a ranger kit, then the ranger should be in lower case to match the other heading styles.
16. The link to the discussion forum at the start of the readme, should probably point here and not the Beamdog forums since you and your posts are no longer on those forums.  (You might want to update the links in your signature here as well!)
17. I'd suggest moving the COMPONENT 48: Armored Casting for Bards from Tome & Blood to this mod or to Scales of Balance, since all the other Bard stuff seems to be here already or it fits in with the other types of tweaks in Scales of Balance.
18. In a larger reoganization approach, you might want to consider combining all the kits which work independent of other subsystems in one mod and stuck all the various subsystems which are applied to other classes in a second mod (Looking at Might & Guile and Tome & Blood right now).  This will hopefully help make install orders simpler (install the subsystem mod first, then the kit mods second which include code to take advantage of any of the subsystems if they are there and needed for the kit).  Ideally, everything would be encapsulated and standalone, but I understand that this is probably a lot of work.

Hopefully some of this feedback is useful.  On the whole, while I'd love to see some of the components split apart and renamed, one of the hopefully easier to do things is reorganize and group the components so all the similar stuff is in one place.

On 5/4/2020 at 2:36 AM, 4udr4n said:

Thanks!

Can you confirm that you have the same results for any of the mods you have also installed?

I don't have Divine Remix anymore, so @CamDawg can stand down! That said, any input is welcome.

Was Divine Remix removed because of compatibility issues and getting the kits to work nicely with @subtledoctor's Faiths & Powers?

I notice that you still have Song & Silence on your list.  Have you been able to get that one working, or has it been trimmed as well?

I see that you have the Almateria Restoration Project on your list.  Are you using the patch posted here? I see you have a note regarding install order as noted by @Cahir in this post.  I also recall a post on a possible incompatibility between ARP and BG1 NPC, but I can't find it right now.

My goal is to create a curated experience that offers as broad of a range of quality content that integrates well with the existing game.  Once I have something stable, I'll figure out an easy way to clone things (this might be as simple as zipping up a few key files along with my override, Portrait, and other directories), and then share my install with a couple of real life friends.  We'll then play through the game in a book-club style and have discussions after set periods (I'm thinking chapters and we'll make certain locations off limits until we are all ready to do so).

Part of the hard work is figuring out not just the technical inconsistencies, but the conceptual and style inconsistencies.  I have made my life easier by staying away from any of the old-school mega mods as well as having a fairly firm rule on incomplete mod content and unstable beta tests.  This has sadly made me have to skip some mods I had as part of my default mod pack back in the day (Virtue, Oversight, Longer Road) as well as other ones I'd be fine with, but which wouldn't be a good experience for players completely new to the game (any NPC mod that has SoA but no ToB content, minimal crossmod banter, etc.)  It also means I have to be more careful around balance in the game, since although I'm planning on using SCS, the difficulty scaling for that mod is pretty good and I can't risk messing things up by adding in some unbalanced items from different item mods and quest packs.

Something I'm thinking of using to deal with the XP and scaling situation is to implement XP caps from EET Tweaks for the BG1, SoD, and ToB parts of the game.  Certain questlines will also have their XP tweaked (Trials of the Luremaster, Test Your Mettle!) to avoid overpowering characters too early on in the process.

It's probably going to be a fairly involved process in not only getting a stable install, but one up to the quality I am expecting, but this is something we're likely going to kick off more seriously in the fall once the weather becomes wetter, so I've got some time to get it right.

If the Imoen Romance has been rewritten to better fit with the character in the BG games, I will have to check it out.  Recall that I am working with a circa 2007 knowledge for a lot of these mods that I haven't dug into recently and I recall the old Imoen Romance having some pretty objectionable stuff so I didn't even look this time around.

How compatible is the Imoen Romance with Imoen Friendship technically and conceptually/stylistically?

Edit: Further research indicates that the Imoen Romance makes her more moody to reflect her experiences in BG2, while the Imoen Friendship is generally more upbeat and playful, reminiscent of BG1 Imoen.

Regarding NPCKit and Faiths & Power Mods

subtledoctor recommended not installing the "Anomen Gains Cleric of Helm Kit" in this post if Faiths & Powers "assign kits to NPCs" is included.

Fair enough. 

Another question:

You have both

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npckit:400:Anomen Gains Helm Kit on Passing Knighthood Test
npckit:410:Anomen Gains Berserker Kit on Failing Knighthood Test
npckit:420:Prevent CN Anomen Gaining a Holy Symbol

followed by @subtledoctor's

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Faiths_and_Powers:85:Apply FnP kits to NPCs

Is this intended, or should the npckit components be omitted? 

Note that subtledoctor recommended against installing the Helm Kit component if you want to avoid some potential weirdness.

I look forward to hearing from @4udr4n and others regarding the stability and bug level of this mod.  I've got my eye on it, but can't experiment too much in my current install due to my planned "book club" approach with some friends.

7 minutes ago, Cahir said:

This was a suggestion from mod author @argent77:

Mod order is not very important for this mod since the adventure is rather independent from other mod content. Placement behind spell-related components of SCS is a good idea to minimize potential conflicts that might still be there.

This is good to know.

In a similar vein, I noticed that

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A7-GolemConstruction:0:Golem Construction Ability for Spellcasters
A7-GolemConstruction:10:Replace original Golem Manual
A7-GolemConstruction:15:Improve enemy spellcaster AI
A7-GolemConstruction:20:Golems for enemy spellcasters
A7-GolemConstruction:25:Greater variety of enemy golem types
A7-GolemConstruction:30:Fighter Stronghold golems may continue to serve you
A7-GolemConstruction:35:Make golems vulnerable to specific spell effects
A7-GolemConstruction:40:Reduce weapon immunities and resistances for constructed golems
A7-GolemConstruction:45:Identify all mod items
A7-GolemConstruction:50:Add "Teleport" ability to golems

Are all installed very early in the sequence, ahead of most of the quest material.  Is there a particular reason for this, or is it just out of convenience sake since the A7-Test Your Mettle! comes right before?

Are there any major differences between this mod and the components of aTweaks?

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Distinctive creature coloring
This component will recolor certain creatures to more clearly differentiate them from each other. Most notably Flesh, Stone, Clay, Sand, Juggernaut, Iron and Adamantite Golems now all have distinctive appearances. Furthermore all Mephits (Fire, Ice, Lightning, Magma, Air, Earth, Mist...etc.) now have unique colors, Giant, Snow, Ice and Desert Trolls can now be easily distinguished from their regular cousins, Imps (tinted red) can now easily be distinguished from Quasits (tinted green), Greater Mummies are tinged with golden colors which makes them stand out from regular Mummies and Nishruu are now tinted red which makes it easier to distinguish them from the gray colored Hakeashars. Finally, this component also makes it easier to distinguish between Balors, Pit Fiends and Nabassu. It also makes Bone Fiends, Maurezhi and Hellcats stand out from Bone Golems, Ghouls and Panthers, respectively. Furthermore, Dryads, Hamadryads, Nymphs, Sirines, Nereids and Succubi now use different color templates as well and Aerial Servants stand out a bit more from Lesser Air Elementals. For reference, the new creature colors match the appropriate descriptions and illustrations from the PnP source material as closely as possible. A screenshot gallery is available online.

Distinctive creature soundsets
This component assigns a unique soundset to Shambling Mounds rather than having them mimic the Earth Elemental soundset. It also assigns a new soundset to all Mariliths in the game which is based on Yxunomei, the Marilith from Icewind Dale. Finally, it assigns the proper soundsets to all Dryads, Nymphs, Nereids, Sirines, Succubi and Water Elementals.

Another post with more comments:

1. Sarah has its own music addon.
2. Haer'Dalis romance has a compatibility issue with the Sarevok Romance.  Install Haer'Dalis first.  There are also other bugs with dialogues and the romance failing to fire as intended based on the bug thread.  I've sadly had to drop this one from my list due to the concern around the number of  bugs.
3. BG2 Romantic Encounters.  If you install the Valygar Friendship or Corthala Romantique mods, you'll want to skip the Valygar Romance and Valygar Romance (ToB) components.
4. BG2 Romantic Encounters: The Blame the Moon component makes references to Cernd being a Shapeshifter
5. BG2 Romantic Encounters & Coran for BG2.  Don't install the Coran component from BG2 Romantic Encouters if you are using the Coran for BG2 mod.
6. Lord Miraboo's Imoen Romance is quite a rewrite of Imoen's character.  Some love it, others hate it.  You have been warned.
7. I believe that Keeping Yoshimo is incompatible with Yoshimo's Remorse and Yoshimo's Friendship.  My understanding is that Remorse, Friendship, and Romance are all compatible, but Keeping isn't with any of the others.  YMMV.
8. Yvette Romance may have some bugs with the script compilation during install.  I'm going to see if it installs properly for me.
9. Chloe had a reputation for being one of the most "author insert overpowered characters" until Sandrah took the tiara.  The character's stats were created using the 3.0 system, so end up resulting in a quite overpowered character in the 2nd edition that BG2 uses.  You have been warned.
10. Solaufein (Weimer) and Solaufein's Rescue (Jastey) are both NPC mods for our favourite drow fighter.  Only one of these should be used.  Solaufein's Rescue is currently only translated to English for his escape quest, the rest of the translation is still being worked on.
11. You have a bunch of questpacks installed after NPC mods (row 205 onwards).  General convention is to install these first.  I know that the Suna Seni component in Unfinished Business should be installed before Corthala Romantique.

There's a lot of stuff in there as well with the various megamods and Sorcerer's Place that probably needs a close look to see if they match the quality and balance you'd expect for your game.  They were mostly hit or miss, tending towards miss, back in the day and I don't see many of them having received any real rebalancing or other types of clean-up in the time since.  I haven't commented on them, since I didn't do more than take a cursory look at their current state.  At least most of them are now Weidu mods that don't just use Weidu to copy a dialog.tlk into your override.

More items:

1. There's a BG2 Romantic Encounters dialogue that may make reference to Cernd being a shapeshifter and possibly one or two in the Cernd Friendship mod.  Keep this in mind relative to the Totemic Cernd if you care about these types of inconsistencies.
2. Rolles Safyer has some pretty unbalanced items.  I'd take a close look at the list of items in the readme to see if it matches your taste.
3. Aurora's Shoes and Boots should probably link to the currently maintained one by Sam at SHS.  https://github.com/Sampsca/Auroras-Shoes-and-Boots/releases
4. Fishing for Trouble is currently bugged. 1. 2. 3. I stopped looking at this point, but I remember seeing some more bugs listed as well on the BeamDog forums.
5. Dark Side of the Sword Coast has received a recent update.  It doesn't appear to have received the same type of cleanup and rebalance that NTotSC received.
6. BG Mini Quests & Encounters has some small bugs with the Many Little Paws component.
7. A Mod for the Orderly.  EET Tweaks v1.12 also features a keyring container. 
8. Dungeon Be Gone and Skip Chateau Irenicus both do the same thing.  I'd choose one or the other.
9. Keldorn Romance.  You may need to install Senesible Entrance Points from the Tweakpack (G3?) prior to installing Keldorn Romance in order for Keldorn to appear in the right location as per the mod's readme.
10. Yeslick NPC has a problem with the TP2 that is a simple fix as per here.
11. Auren Aseph has a problem with the TP2 that is a simple fix as per here.
12. Tyris Flare has a problem with the TP2 that is a simple fix as per here.
13. Sarah has a problem with the TP2 that is a simple fix as per here.
14. A Soundset is available for Ninde NPC here.  This just makes her speak up when clicked on, but isn't full voicing.

And another question.

Why is A7-TotLM-BG2EE:0:Trials of the Luremaster for BG2:EE
A7-TotLM-BG2EE:20:Rebalance weapons and equipment
A7-TotLM-BG2EE:32:Reduce by 75 percent

So late in the install process?  Wouldn't these normally be placed near the Quest content section of the install, or is it because it doesn't really matter?  I notice that it follows right after the SCS component to add IWD spells.  Is there some sort of interaction between these two mods?

One thing I noticed.

1. You have both SkieCost:2:Skie: The Cost of One Girl's Soul - Add brand new SoD-oriented items to BG2 and sod2bg2_iu:2:All importable items with Voidhammer +3 on your list.  Do these two mods both being installed mean duplication of some of the items?

What format are the two attachments in?

Comments here.

General

1. I've found it helpful to include a note as to the version in my list.  This helps me figure out if I have the latest version or if things need updating.

In the Install on BG:EE before EET you may also want to consider adding the following based on what I've been able to find.

1. White as Bones NPC for BG v2.0.  Is this for install after EET or before? I've seen both recommended.
2. I have some concerns regarding his crossbow proficiency change and how it interacts with subtledoctor's mods.  It may be fine, but it's one area I can see potentially causing problems.
3. Aerie in BG1.  This is a bit of a conceptual incompatibility as Aerie in BG2 will not recognize the player and they likely should based on the BG1 encounter as described by the mod author here.
4. I found a later version of Finch updated for BG:EE here.  Note that there may be some compatibility issues with SoD where Finch is treated as a silent multiplayer NPC and isn't kicked out of the party correctly, as described by @jastey here.  If Finch was kicked out properly and worked otherwise, I'd love to include this mod in my install order.
5. Garrick, Tales of a Troubadour and Garrick's Infatuation as well as Tenya NPC conflict with each other and should not be installed together as per this page.
6. Tenya Thermidor apparently has some balance issues, so your mileage may vary for if she fits in the game or not.
7. Indira NPC v12beta3.  There may be an issue with some of the scripts compiling properly.
8. Margarita Zelleod.  Currently lacks a portrait or voicing as per the mod author.
9. Dark Horizons. There are concerns regarding the balance of the items you get from this mod.  There's also possible compatibility issues with SCS.  And some broken items/areas.  It's buggy.
10. The Stone of Askavar may have some glitchy graphics that don't match the style in the base game.
11. Valerie has a soundset.
12. Baldur's Gate Graphics Overhaul mod for EET may have some bugs.
13. Tales of Anegh.  Apparently there's some rough English translation in this mod and the graphics in the new areas may not fit seamlessly into the game (see screenshot in same thread).

More to come as I work my way through the list.

I will take a look. 

A reload from the master is needed in other areas too.  The current spreadsheet  is pretty thrashed.

In the Install Order section in the Readme, it suggests installing Grey the Dog last after all other NPC and interjection mods.  Would you suggest installing this before or after the NPC Flirtpacks, which have a similar recommendation?

Is there anything special regarding Turnabout in light of the recent updates?  The current version (1.3) of Turnabout has the following in the Readme

Quote

Q: Does Turnabout alter core Ascension code?
A: Only slightly, and not in a way that affects gameplay. Specifically, we edit certain scripts so that your restored Turnabout allies are placed in formation at the end of the final battle. We also change the animation associated with PPGUY02.CRE (the part of the pool that "talks" to the PC) so that it works correctly with NPC interjections. We do not alter the behavior of Melissan, the Five, Irenicus, Bodhi, or the pool guardians in any way.

Q: Is Turnabout compatible with other Ascension add-ons?
A: We have not tested Turnabout with other mods which alter the TOB endgame, except for Wheels of Prophecy, which is fully compatible.

So, another few questions regarding conceptual compatibility of some mods.

1. In BG2 Romantic Encounters, there is a component called "Enter Haer'Dalis".  Does this work conceptually (not technically) with the Haer'Dalis Friendship?  I'd ask about the Haer'Dalis Romance, but that appears to be bugged right now, so it isn't on my install list.
2. The Valygar Romance in Romantic Encounters does not seem to be compatible with Corthala Romantique or the Valygar Friendship mods.  Are there any opinions as to which version people preferred?  It seems the Corthala Romantique + Valygar Friendship mods gives a broader range of content.
3. The Sellswords includes encounters with Artemis Enteri (fighting on the same side).  Unfinished Business also features Artemis Enteri.  Are these two mods conceptually compatible (do they take each other into account, or are they written in a way that Enteri's presence in both locations makes sense?)
4. Does the Cernd Friendship mod make any references to him being a Shapeshifter Druid?  Likewise, does the Cernd component in BG2 Romantic Encounters make any reference to his kit?

I'm sure I'll have more questions, but as always I appreciate the thoughts of others.

What does the "Install this after" column refer to?  Sometimes it has a YES and other times it has a NO.

Does anyone have opinions on which of this and the Romantic Encounters Valygar Romance is better/more consistent with the writing in the original game?

I am planning on including this with my next modded run of EET and I'm wondering about some conceptual incompatibilities of the Enter Haer'Dalis component.  Is this thematically compatible with the Haer'Dalis friendship?  Will it pop up at a thematically inappropriate time, or do the mods account for each other?  I'm interested in consistent characterization, or the mods staying out of each other's way. 

I'm interested in avoiding situations described in the Corthala Romantique Readme

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Romantic Ecounters, components "Valygar Romance, by Kulyok" and "Valygar Romance ToB, by Kulyok": technically, the two mods are compatible. Content-wise, I don't think it's a good idea to have two romances play together, as they paint slightly different pictures of Valygar and might make him sound like he has a bad short-time memory.

As a follow-up, does the Valygar Romance play nicely with the Valygar Friendship mod, or will I get some schizophrenic behaviour if both these components and the Valygar Friendship mod is installed?