Item Revisions Mod

[Bursk]

Demivrgvs, that was me earlier, asking about Hindo's Doom etc.

 

I'm glad you agree (or at least acknowledge) my point about Holy Smite, and do hope that some alternative can be found. Even if I'm not playing an evil party, I may well have an evil party member or two, and those sweet katanas are so rare...

 

Thanks for doing the Kiel's buckler thing as well.

 

I wonder if you could maybe explain a bit more about the DEX penalties. Like most people, what I do at the moment is just stick the best armor (i.e. with the best AC rating) on each party member. Are you saying that I should continue to do this with your mod? I was concerned that e.g. a character with 18 DEX should wear nothing heavier than chainmail (that's just picking something at random) otherwise the penalty to their DEX and AC will be worse than the benefits gained by the armor.

 

So are you saying that's not the case, and that I should just continue doing what I've always done, and give each character the best armor they can wear? And if I do so, the AC bonus from the armor will always be greater than the AC bonus lost due to the DEX penalties?

 

Ooh, finally, I think we may have briefly discussed this before, but with regard to the "large shields: +4 bonus to AC, -2 penalty to attack rolls", have you tested this in combat to see what difference it makes? I still can't quite decide if I'd rather just use medium shields instead, because -2 to attack rolls seems quite a bit to me. But this is perhaps just me talking out of my ass, and in-game an extra +2 to AC more than makes up for the -2 to attack rolls. I'd also like to hear what other people think about this. Would "+3 bonus to AC, -1 penalty to attack rolls" be worth considering instead?

 

Thanks for your time.

[Demivrgvs]

Well, the spell effect could be like the Dragon's Breath, Comet and Wail of the Banshee, that the party members are immune to the area effect(thus damage). You might have to make the item eff, but that should be easy...

It would be easy yes, but a holy sword that does damage to evil characters excluding the wielder and his allies seems quite strange!

I also ask you to reconsider making the Crom Faeyr a non-throwing hammer. The reason is that I would like to use it as my main weapon, but with a dual weapon on the other hand.

I thought it was ok. Most players voted for this solution, and I quite like to slightly discourage the over-used dual wielding. I'm aware I won't ever be able to satisfy each of you for every single item, as each player probably would make many of them slightly different, but I do hope all of you will find more than enough improvements over vanilla's items to justify some others you may not completely like. The "loss" of one or two of your old favourites should be replaced by the introduction of many "new" favourites.

Thanks for doing the Kiel's buckler thing as well.

I probably have to make it optional for taking inot account BGT players. By the way, isn't easyTUTU much better than BGT?

So are you saying that's not the case, and that I should just continue doing what I've always done, and give each character the best armor they can wear? And if I do so, the AC bonus from the armor will always be greater than the AC bonus lost due to the DEX penalties?

The AC bonus from the armor will always be greater than the AC bonus lost due to the DEX penalties, and wearing the heaviest armor always results in the best AC value. But now characters with very high dexterity probably reach the same value by wearing lighter armors that allows faster movements, and while wearing heavy armors characters with low dexterity can now reach almost the same AC of characters with high dexterity. The point is that it should be less appealing to have a very agile character encumbered by a full-plate, but he still would be slightly better than an clumsy character. The following table should be explanatory.

 

 

DEX -- Chain Mail -- Plate Mail -- Full Plate
15	   AC  5		  AC  3		  AC  1	 
16	   AC  4		  AC  3		  AC  1 
17	   AC  3		  AC  2		  AC  1 
18	   AC  2		  AC  1		  AC  0 
19	   AC  1		  AC  0		  AC -1

Ooh, finally, I think we may have briefly discussed this before, but with regard to the "large shields: +4 bonus to AC, -2 penalty to attack rolls", have you tested this in combat to see what difference it makes? I still can't quite decide if I'd rather just use medium shields instead, because -2 to attack rolls seems quite a bit to me. But this is perhaps just me talking out of my ass, and in-game an extra +2 to AC more than makes up for the -2 to attack rolls. I'd also like to hear what other people think about this. Would "+3 bonus to AC, -1 penalty to attack rolls" be worth considering instead?

I've tested it a little, and it works fine. My Undead Hunter continued to hit hard while being better protected. The point is, if your character still hits with a -2 penalty to thac0 (most fighters characters can hit everything even when penalized) than +2 to AC is a pretty good boost. If your the character doesn't hit as often as you hoped (multi-classed fighters are already "penalized" from being lower level fighters and may not afford a further -2) just go with medium shields. Anyway -1 to thac0 and +3 to AC would make tower shields way overpowered compared to their smaller brothers.

 

Edit: I was comparing your +3 to AC suggestion with what I consider a +2 (not +4), I now understand what you mean. It would make less of a difference between tower and medium shields, while I like to have them play different roles.

[aVENGER_(RR)]

As BGT player, I am not fond of BG2 Mods that reintroduce BG1 items (for obvious reasons) so I am hoping that IR won't make me find stuff I have already had and perhaps even taken with me.

 

I'm not too familiar with the way BGT handles item imports, but aren't you supposed to lose all of your BG1 stuff at the start of BG2 anyway?

 

Of RR, I install Chosen of Cyric, Shadow Thief Improvements and Revised Thievery. I am hoping that this means no Kiel's Buckler...

 

In Rogue Rebalancing, Kiel's Buckler is restored by the "Additional equipment for Thieves and Bards" component, so you wont be seeing it if you don't install that. However, in that case, you'll miss a bunch of my custom-made items as well.

[Salk]

Demivrgvs,

 

I really hope that your Mods will be completely BGT compatible.

 

About which one is best between EasyTuTu and BGT it is a matter of preference, really. They are both very valid, with a great support. I started as TuTu player (EasyTuTu didn't even exist then and if it was not for MacReady, the BGT platform would be today the only one worth installing). I love the idea of taking my whole party from beginning (BG1) to end (ToB) without playing two different games. It gives me an enormous satisfaction. I would never play without BGT and - despite what Shaitan said above - there are many like me.

 

Keep it up!

[Salk]

aVenger,

 

thanks for the info. Yes, I believe that in BGT you lose all your equipment at the beginning of SoA, just like for a normal BG2 game. Problem is, I have never really liked much to see BG1 items back in action in BG2. It's often a matter of credibility.

[aVENGER_(RR)]

Problem is, I have never really liked much to see BG1 items back in action in BG2. It's often a matter of credibility.

 

Note that Bioware already re-uses a bunch of BG1 items in BG2 in the unmodded game.

 

Furthermore, since you're captured and stripped of your equipment at the start of BG2, it's entirely plausible that Irenicus (or one of his minions) would sell the majority of your magical items to the Atkhatlan merchants (probably the shady ones).

[Salk]

aVenger,

 

what you say makes sense. The problem is that I read about Mods that made special BG1 items to be found in unappropriate places, without any solid reason.

 

It will not be the case for RR but I am still wary about that.

[Demivrgvs]

I really hope that your Mods will be completely BGT compatible.

I had some beta testers play with both SR and IR on BGT without problems (and "my" coder himself was one of them).

Furthermore, since you're captured and stripped of your equipment at the start of BG2, it's entirely plausible that Irenicus (or one of his minions) would sell the majority of your magical items to the Atkhatlan merchants (probably the shady ones).

I totally agree. And seeing what he has done I do think aVENGER will never introduce "out of place" components.

 

P.S aVENGER, I've seen you've "recently" changed your custom items' descriptions to use a standard layout (special/equipped/combat abilities) which looks exactly like IR's one. May I ask you if I've inspired you? It would be an honor!!

[aVENGER_(RR)]

P.S aVENGER, I've seen you've "recently" changed your custom items' descriptions to use a standard layout (special/equipped/combat abilities) which looks exactly like IR's one. May I ask you if I've inspired you? It would be an honor!!

 

It's possible. I don't remember what exactly made me standardize the descriptions, but I do know that the change was made back when RR v3.9 was released since that version introduced a bunch of new items and revised most of the old (RR-specific) items too.

 

In any case, in think it's certainly clearer for the players that way.

[Miloch]

I really hope that your Mods will be completely BGT compatible.

I hope, rather, that this one patches instead of overwrites . It won't be "compatible" by most BGT players' standards if not, as most BGT players use a bunch of other mods doing any number of things. I haven't combed through this whole massive thread, but I gather that you're changing a bunch of existing items in the game, rather than introducing new ones (which doesn't require patching per se).

[Demivrgvs]

I hope, rather, that this one patches instead of overwrites . It won't be "compatible" by most BGT players' standards if not, as most BGT players use a bunch of other mods doing any number of things. I haven't combed through this whole massive thread, but I gather that you're changing a bunch of existing items in the game, rather than introducing new ones (which doesn't require patching per se).

Are you referring to mega-mod installations? Because I think those are hardcore installations reserved to people who are not afraid of running into a bunch of bugs. Anyway let's get to the point. Global changes and optional components make use of patching codes in order to affect mod-added items, though I highly recommend to not install further item mods (Item Upgrade, FoR & RoV, ...) for balance purposes. ".itm" files instead get overwritten, mainly for two reasons. 1) As I've said for SR, overwriting assures items abilities fully match the description whatever else you're installing (as long as I don't make mistakes ) 2) This mod changes more than 600 items, and even the less changed ones have many non-global changes that has to be handled singularly (new colors palettes to match the avatars, lore, prices, and many effects). If there's anyone out there who's willing to code all those things to make everything patching he's welcome, but it takes far more time than I can afford, and I don't see the catch either as I've never had any report of game-breaking issues with IR.

 

Can you please explain to me which mods do those "bunch of things" that may be incompatibile with IR, and what these "bunch of things" are? I'm quite sure a correct install order avoids all problems, else I can work on it.

[Miloch]

Are you referring to mega-mod installations?

No, I wasn't specifically talking about a megamod install, but even that definition only means BGT and at least one other big mod. That would probably cover a good number of installs these days, but I meant just an average modded BG2 install, and you can bet if someone wants to install your mod, they're going to want to install at least a few others. And you can also bet the Big World folks are going to want to install your mod with a dozen or more other overwriting item mods then wonder why that'd be an issue .

I highly recommend to not install further item mods

".itm" files instead get overwritten

Sorry to hear that. Overwriting lowers the compatibility factor of any mod. You might think your mod is the "end-all" to item/spell updating, and no one could want to make any subsequent (or previous) changes. Unfortunately, that's just not true.

 

There are changes that could be made to a spell or item that have nothing to do with the description. To take the same example I used for Spell Revisions, p5tweaks modifies items that cause petrification such that they will cause the target to drop its inventory on successful stoning. This hardly needs to be in every affected item description, since if you're installing the mod, you know this already. And that's just one example - who knows what the multitude of other mods out there might be doing. But you needn't be leery that some other mod is "messing" with "your" items (which are BG2 items anyway) - that runs rather contrary to the idea of modding .

 

To give another example, let's say a item or spell mod adds brand new animations, projectiles and the like - for example, like LC SpellPack. Well the spell descriptions don't need to mention that either, since it's just a graphical thing (though it changes other things too, but let's leave that for now). Since both your mod and this one currently overwrite files to achieve their ends, they are not compatible - they cancel each other out, in effect. However, Galactygon is updating SP so that it patches spells and maybe it will be compatible with SR eventually, if installed after it.

 

Yes, you could just require your mod be installed early in the process. Possibly even before the Fixpack, since you can't really anticipate with all your overwrites the potential fixes that may be necessary in the future, and if you install it after, you may be overwriting crucial fixes. But that's not really a good method for handling compatibility. Aside from the idea that the Fixpack should be installed first on a freshly patched game, there are other item and spell mods out there that overwrite as well. They may touch some of the same files as yours, and files that you don't touch, and vice versa, but you can see how conflicts will arise with this if they both overwrite. It becomes tricky to say which mod should go before which. Even 1PP currently overwrites items to give coloured quarterstaffs, flaming swords and whatnot (it too should be patching). So should that be installed before or after your mod, or not at all? This is what I'm talking about.

 

You may also say "don't install other item/spell mods with mine," or even "don't install any other mods with mine" but then we're getting into "monolithic" mod territory (like IA and such mods). Yes, patching is a pain, but it's worthwhile to attempt it at least if you're dealing with modding existing game resources or those added by other mods. And in some cases, patching can be quicker and easier, since you can handle large numbers of files in batches.

I've never had any report of game-breaking issues with IR

Not that I'd expect any "game-breaking" reports necessarily - incompatibility isn't always game-breaking (but that doesn't mean it's ok). And like I said, I haven't been following every page of this thread, but... is this released? If so, where's the link?

[Demivrgvs]

I don't see any problem here, and I've never said you can't install "this or that" mod with IR, I've just said that most items mods aren't recommended (and quite unbalancing, actually RR's component is the only one I would ever install), but I would never impede to install further items mods, and making global and optional changes patch is just a proof of that! Same goes for every other mod, I have tons of mods installed at the moment and they work just fine. If those overwriting items mods you mentioned happen to affect pre-existing items than you'll simply get the last ones installed.

There are changes that could be made to a spell or item that have nothing to do with the description. To take the same example I used for Spell Revisions, p5tweaks modifies items that cause petrification such that they will cause the target to drop its inventory on successful stoning.

P5tweak should be installed later anyway, even if SR patches. P5tweak installed later works just fine, it just patches SR's spells instead of vanilla's spells.

To give another example, let's say a item or spell mod adds brand new animations, projectiles and the like - for example, like LC SpellPack. Well the spell descriptions don't need to mention that either, since it's just a graphical thing (though it changes other things too, but let's leave that for now). Since both your mod and this one currently overwrite files to achieve their ends, they are not compatible - they cancel each other out, in effect.

Well...these two mods as a whole won't be ever compatibile, though some components may work together. Unless SpellPack has a component that only changes animation (I don't think it's the author's intention) you either want SR's spells or SpellPack ones, you simply can't have two different versions of the same spell. If a player prefer SpellPack over SR he's free to choose that mod.

However, Galactygon is updating SP so that it patches spells and maybe it will be compatible with SR eventually, if installed after it.

Galactygon is working on that mod since 2004 and still haven't finished it (though I admit his mod is even more ambitious than mine), I've worked on SR for half a year and it's "already" out there. From here to the next three years I may have the time to make it completely patching, but I preferred this solution to a delayed release of X years.

Yes, you could just require your mod be installed early in the process. Possibly even before the Fixpack, since you can't really anticipate with all your overwrites the potential fixes that may be necessary in the future, and if you install it after, you may be overwriting crucial fixes.

A correct install order (and not a complicated one at all) is the only thing required to make it fully compatibile with pratically everything out there. Both IR and SR have to be installed after Fix Pack (as all mods!), if a new bug I'm not aware of comes out, someone should update Fix Pack anyway, and I don't see why I can't do the same. Furthmore I'm confident most if not all bugs related only to spells/items are already solved, and I've made extensive tests to check eveything (e.g. I'm the one who discovered some bugs like vanilla's "bonuses vs. type creature" not working properly).

Even 1PP currently overwrites items to give coloured quarterstaffs, flaming swords and whatnot (it too should be patching). So should that be installed before or after your mod, or not at all?

Actually I've included most 1PP features in IR after asking permission to Erephine.

Not that I'd expect any "game-breaking" reports necessarily - incompatibility isn't always game-breaking (but that doesn't mean it's ok). And like I said, I haven't been following every page of this thread, but... is this released? If so, where's the link?

No, I'm talking about beta testers' reports (or players who requested it even in a unfinished state). Here at G3 there currently are some problems and mod releases are on hold, SR for example is available (download link and forums are up) since a month but still it hasn't been officially released.

You might think your mod is the "end-all" to item/spell updating, and no one could want to make any subsequent (or previous) changes. Unfortunately, that's just not true.

I've never had such a presumption...

You may also say "don't install other item/spell mods with mine," or even "don't install any other mods with mine" but then we're getting into "monolithic" mod territory (like IA and such mods).

...and I would never say something like that. I'm the first one who installs many mods, but I do prefer a huge mod that covers many related things (e.g. Tweak Pack, Refinements, ...) to an infinite number of smaller mods. With this in mind I've created both SR and IR, and I will continue to improve them and provide support, but within the limits of time real life imposes to me. As I've said before, if there's a coder out there (like yourself) who's willing to take the task of making SR and IR completely patching he's welcome, but for now it does works fine as it is.

[Miloch]

I've worked on SR for half a year and it's "already" out there. From here to the next three years I may have the time to make it completely patching, but I preferred this solution to a delayed release of X years.

That is reasonable enough to expect, from a development perspective. But, to nitpick your first statement, it's been over a year since the initial post, and this is not technically "out there" yet .

As I've said before, if there's a coder out there (like yourself) who's willing to take the task of making SR and IR completely patching he's welcome

Heh. I've got a "swamp of mods" to deal with as it is, as Ascension64 puts it. I was just wondering what happened to this statement from post #6:

For patching rather than overwriting it will be done...

Unless you meant "it will be done" in some future release, as you say. Also, I still have to disagree that overwriting is "better" for some things. It doesn't ensure your descriptions will match any better than good patching since the text is maintained separately from the items in both cases, and all someone has to do is come along with a COPY/SAY after the fact to change it either way.

 

It's too bad you don't have a forum for this somewhere, because the information buried in this massive post would be easier to review if split up into separate topics in one place.

[Mike1072]

Yes, patching is a pain, but it's worthwhile to attempt it at least if you're dealing with modding existing game resources or those added by other mods. And in some cases, patching can be quicker and easier, since you can handle large numbers of files in batches.

The majority of batch-type changes have been implemented as patching code. Care has been taken with all components affecting mod-added files to provide as much compatibility as possible. When dealing with the complete overhaul of original game items, you have to decide if patching is still beneficial as you change more and more things. At some point, it simply becomes more manageable to say "this is the item you're getting - and it should behave as we claim it does". As a big fan of compatibility, I've spent some time contemplating whether this is the best way to provide these new items, and in a number of cases, I don't think these changes could be reliably done by patching only a few parts of the file, and the time investment in doing each item this way would push this mod back even further. Following a proper install order, I predict the vast majority of incompatibilities will simply be conceptual (which version of the item would you prefer?).

 

All that being said, I am sure Demivrgvs would like his mods to be compatible with as many things as possible, and would go out of the way to accommodate any cases where fixable problems have been found.