Commentary

[Catseye]

It seems to me that this post is getting a little out of hand.....Romantic Encounters is supposed to be a fun way of adding a little "something" extra to an already awesome game. It's not supposed to be this complicated.

[Western Paladin]

I tend to think that adding stat requirements in the name of "realism" might make someone feel better, but also make it harder for every player to experience the mod (yeah, not all the proposals would have made everyone as picky as Edwin; I'm generalizing). I'm not sure what fun there is in playing (making?) a mod like this if people can't play it or use it.

 

Oh, magrat: if you're still reading, I thought Guildmistress Busya was perfect as is.

 

EDIT: Not picking on any authors there or implying that I didn't like Anishai, Ada, Aimi, Gaelan, or Renal. Because I did.

[Evaine Dian]

Play it before you comment, otherwise it's a waste of time and energy to post here.

Implying that if I do play your encounters (with a Female Elf who's used the Rod of Terror to give herself 1 Charisma) and then come back with the same general ideas, you'll promise to be more openminded? Otherwise I'd have to agree with you, this has been a waste of time.

With a Charisma of 1, you can't start Ribald's encounter and Gaelan doesn't care, as long as you look remotely female.

 

My opinion concerning the content of my encounters is valid, no matter if you have played them or not, and I wouldn't add any more checks to any existing encounters.

 

If you had played the mod (or read the files) and commented afterwards on the encounters, some issues wouldn't have popped up, anyway, some might have been misunderstandings of content and could have been cleared up, and the rest would at least not have looked so absurd.

[Immortality]

Nice to see that I'm not the only one who thinks that requirements suck balls bigtime.

 

Id die of boredom if i have to play BG2 with 70 different characters to try all the encounters.

 

I say no requirements for anyone. There. Easy. Enjoy!

[whiteowluk]

Hi,

 

I have to agree with Evaine. If you are going to comment on a mod, then it really helps if you have if not played through it, at least read the files.

 

Earlier you asked if you could not judge a book by its cover. Let's continue that analogy. How would you feel if you had written a book and then someone approached you offering advice as to how to rewrite the book despite the fact that they have clearly only looked at the cover and maybe read the first page in the book i.e. the standard publisher blurb? Regardless of what the person had to say, they've already damaged their credibility.

 

I'm not saying you can't comment or offer advice, but please do consider that to do so without having actually studied closely the things you would like to change is at best foolish and at worst disrespectful to the modders whose work you are commenting on. Most of us here I believe like Romantic Encounters as is and it's clear how much work and effort has gone into it by all the modders concerned. Even if you don't agree with the former at least consider and study the latter before suggesting changes. If nothing else you will then be able to talk from a position of knowledge rather than supposition. There is nothing wrong with debate, but it should be informed debate.

 

Whiteowluk

[berelinde]

I have nothing to add to what whiteowluk said. It perfectly summarizes my own view on the matter.

 

And Catseye and Western Paladin raise valid points, too. It isn't supposed to be this tough.

[Domi]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought one of the main purposes of mods was to improve on BioWare's work, not merely echo it. Allowing past mistakes to serve as "justification" for present fallacy is a job for the Flat Earth Society, not for us.

 

If that is a mistake. Berelinde might think that it was a mistake. I for one think that it is perfectly in character for Anomen to try to get laid no matter who ir what PC is. I mean, if anything, I'd have included every other race except for gnomes (whom he clearly hates). She is a woman, and the boy wants to score for the first time, no matter what she sais. That's how I see Anomen, and I will ignore any mod which tries to "correct" it.

 

Not to mention that I am an opponent of prohoibitive restrictions on any romances all together. I think that prohibitive restrictions are simply wrong, because they place an emphasis in the wrong place - on a simple *number* not on who your PC is, what she or he wants and how you as a player interpret a particular stat. If the authors feel that a restrictive check is necessary - so be it, but to be honest, I think it will detract from the playing experience in this particular mod, which is designed to have numerous and various encounters.

 

Anyway, have fun playing, everyone

[SixOfSpades]

Earlier you asked if you could not judge a book by its cover. Let's continue that analogy. How would you feel if you had written a book and then someone approached you offering advice as to how to rewrite the book despite the fact that they have clearly only looked at the cover and maybe read the first page in the book i.e. the standard publisher blurb?

If the book is about the adventures of a warrior princess who slays entire armies while clad only in scraps of silk from Frederick's of Hollywood, and later goes on to become Queen of the Ewok People, I don't need to read the book to know that it's a piece of crap. The writing style, depth of character development, and complexity of the plot might be pretty darn good, but what use is that if the book has already shot itself in the kneecaps with that kind of stupid, cheesy artifice? "But oh!" the publishers cry. "Those details make the book more accessible! The near-nudity generates interest in the 16-to-35 market, and the Ewoks give the little kids something to relate to!" Yeah, they make the book more accessible. They also make the book "suck balls bigtime," and one doesn't even have to read the first chapter in order to know it.

 

Thankfully, Romantic Encounters is not that book. Indeed, I think the mod is a very good idea, allowing for roleplaying freedom in a direction that was previously almost ignored, it's only 1 relatively small facet of it that I think could stand improvement. Answering your comment in the manner in which it was written, whiteowluk, you are naturally correct that actually playing the mod would give me a greater understanding of its contents, and, in the view of its authors at least, the "authority" to comment on the work. Except for one important caveat: Playing RE would largely be informative about nothing more than the writing and implementation of the mod, whereas the aspect that I take issue with is part of the mod's spirit--an aspect which, by the way, I need look no further than the README to determine. Sure, I'll play the mod, but that won't change my mind on how ridiculous it is to have a character who will jump in the sack with a Halfling with 1 CHA, but not a Gnome with 22 CHA.

 

 

Romantic Encounters is supposed to be a fun way of adding a little "something" extra to an already awesome game. It's not supposed to be this complicated.

Complicated? Let me put it this way: If this were a combat-oriented mod, the "lack of complications" that you and Immortality seem to prefer would result in bad guys with no defensive abilities and an Armor Class of 20. There. Easy. Enjoy!

 

 

It isn't supposed to be this tough.

Yeah, because it's so hard to roll 13 Charisma. Or wear the Nymph Cloak. Or cast Friends. Or carry the Blade of Roses. This game is so difficult!

[magrat]

Oh, magrat: if you're still reading, I thought Guildmistress Busya was perfect as is.

 

I am still reading (in quite a bemused manner), and thank you again Considering I wrote most of her dialogue after promising Kulyok for the nth time I'd have her ready, and deciding I really had better get it done....

 

And, for what it's worth, I'd add my support to the less-restrictions-the-better masses. I don't think this particularly makes me more shallow than someone obsessed with roleplaying to stats, because... well, it's a game, like any other. Having MUDded for more years than I'd care to admit to, people displaying a complete inability to roleplay to *any* factor of their character is not an alien concept to me. By having less or limited restrictions, you allow the experiences to be fairly open to them.

 

For anyone who really DOES want to roleplay... they can refer to the Readme and decide only to approach or initiate dialogues with the people who would 'suit' the whole situation around their character. Just because the option's there, doesn't mean your character need take it after all

[berelinde]

For anyone who really DOES want to roleplay... they can refer to the Readme and decide only to approach or initiate dialogues with the people who would 'suit' the whole situation around their character. Just because the option's there, doesn't mean your character need take it after all

 

Sounds like the perfect roleplaying solution. Well done!

[Evaine Dian]

Where's Kulyok, by the way? I'd love to hear your opinion on this matter.

[Catseye]

For anyone who really DOES want to roleplay... they can refer to the Readme and decide only to approach or initiate dialogues with the people who would 'suit' the whole situation around their character. Just because the option's there, doesn't mean your character need take it after all

 

Bravo.....well done.

[Kulyok]

I like "it's better to check reputation than alignment, if you're going to check this" approach - it makes sense to me that people hear about the hero and pick up things, but I can't see anyone but the most dedicated paladins and clerics casting 'Detect Evil' on their romantic partner.

 

As for racial restrictions, some of the characters are picky, and some are not, depending on the author's vision. Just like in real life, I suppose. I can see Lais with any guy - so no restrictions here. But I just can't see Saemon Havarian with a female dwarf *and* sober - so racial restrictions apply.

 

As usual, I'll gladly incorporate a nice romantic encounter with a gnomish/dwarven/half-orc character, especially if this character has a story to him or her. The same, of course, goes for human/elven/half-elven/halfling characters, as well.

 

 

I hope you will enjoy playing the mod.

 

 

 

Other stuff:

 

Mazzy: yes, I'd like to write a Mazzy sequence for v3. Note that 'sequence' doesn't mean 'scoring', though.

 

Haer'Dalis is tricky to write, but I'll be happy to include an encounter, a sequence or a full romance, should anyone wish to submit it. I do not know about writing it myself - it's difficult to get into the 'right' frame of mind, and his joining dialogue is just too good. I haven't ruled it out, though.

[SixOfSpades]

I like "it's better to check reputation than alignment, if you're going to check this" approach - it makes sense to me that people hear about the hero and pick up things, but I can't see anyone but the most dedicated paladins and clerics casting 'Detect Evil' on their romantic partner.

Very true, which was why I didn't suggest it for anyone but Firkraag, as it's not far out of line from regular Dragon abilities. I considered suggesting it for Weathermistress Ada, but decided that she'd likely just shrug it off and simply go by CHARNAME's Reputation. I'm less picky about the Law-Chaos axis, though; I can see Evil people pretending to be Good in a mostly-Good society, but people tend to be more open about whether they're Lawful or Chaotic, so I liked the idea of Rebecca being more attracted to unpredictable, bad-boy type guys.

 

As for racial restrictions, some of the characters are picky, and some are not, depending on the author's vision. Just like in real life, I suppose. I can see Lais with any guy - so no restrictions here. But I just can't see Saemon Havarian with a female dwarf *and* sober - so racial restrictions apply.

Indeed, I'm not here to twist anybody's arm, just to posit logical arguments, and hope that people listen--indeed, cmorgan, jastey, and Simbul already have, and I thank them for their broadmindedness. So yes, the original author's vision is still paramount . . . I just wish that that vision always made sense, and adhered to realistic and dramatic standards.

 

 

For anyone who really DOES want to roleplay... they can refer to the Readme and decide only to approach or initiate dialogues with the people who would 'suit' the whole situation around their character. Just because the option's there, doesn't mean your character need take it after all

Yes, leaving the mod without restrictions is certainly one way of allowing individual gamers to roleplay on their own terms: If they feel that their stats aren't good enough to have attracted the attentions of Character X, they can simply decline to pursue the encounter. Except that there's a problem with that: You don't own Coran.

Let me explain. When players see something in-game, it has an air of authority. Even if it's something that they know is mod content, the train of thought is still, "Well, Westley Weimer is a highly respected BG2 coder--he created WeiDU, after all--and mod designer, so I can take it for granted that these Sanchuudoku and Water's Talon weapons are perfectly balanced for where I recieved them in the game, and will be fully appropriate for my Fighter to Dual-wield."

A similar effect occurs even when it's something as simple as dialogue: "Well, Kulyok is well-known for her good designs, and she's the primary author of this mod, so the overall quality must be pretty good or she wouldn't have approved it. So even though I find it a bit out of character for a charming guy like Coran to be sexually attracted to my Berserker->Cleric (since she happens to have just as much wit and personality as a puddle of cold rat vomit), I must assume that it is Officially Approved for him to have the hots for me."

So: You don't own Coran. Neither do I, of course. Technically, he's the intellectual property of BioWare, but since they don't seem to want him anymore, he's a Communist Coran who belongs to the People. And you know, something tells me that if you took a poll, you would find that the majority of players think Coran only hits on pretty girls. And when those people find out that Coran has exactly the same reaction to

A) A worldy, brainy, Elven Sorceress with sparkling eyes and a wry jest always at the ready, and

B) A bald, surly Halfling Assassin who looks and acts like she just crawled out of a warthog's ass,

. . . they'll probably feel somewhat cheated. You gimped Coran! What was the point of making a character with good mental stats if they're just going to be ignored--by all but the original, BioWare scripts?!? Is that what you writers want your mods to be? Less immersive and realistic than the original code, with its well-known bugs and shortcomings?

 

 

 

The Long and the Short of It:

1) If one manages to defeat Improved Demogorgon, one has a different roleplaying path through Watcher's Keep, as well as the satisfaction of having beaten that particularly difficult battle. I want these to stay denied to those parties who lack the power and skill to defeat Improved Demogorgon.

2) If one has a suffiently high Wisdom, or has at least one certain other high-Wisdom NPC in the party, one can convince the Spectator Beholder to let them open the chest without provoking a fight--thus enabling one to continue on one's path without being forced to kill a very likable and entertaining NPC. I would like this dialogue option to remain denied to those characters who lack the mental stats that would likely enable them to outwit the Spectator in real-time.

3) If one manages to win the personal attention and possible affection of Aran Linvail, one has a different roleplaying path (e.g., letting him live in Chapter 6, instead of just killing everyone for the EXP), as well as the satisfaction of having charmed your way into the heart of a very cultured, sophisticated, respected Shadowmaster who could have pretty much any woman he wants. I would like this to be denied to those characters who couldn't charm their way into the heart of a man who's been marooned for 30 years.

To me, making a woman who's equally likely to be swayed by Korgan as she is by Keldorn makes exactly as much sense as altering Demogorgon so that he's equally likely to be killed by a well-balanced, high-level party as he is by a blind, one-legged Solo Beastmaster.

 

That's my stance. I have nothing more to add to it, nor indeed will I: Unless somebody posts something that's genuinely new and worth replying to, I'm outta here. Contrary to popular belief, I did not come here to be shouted down, and won't continue to do so. Good night, y'all.

[Guest Confused]

3) If one manages to win the personal attention and possible affection of Aran Linvail, one has a different roleplaying path (e.g., letting him live in Chapter 6, instead of just killing everyone for the EXP), as well as the satisfaction of having charmed your way into the heart of a very cultured, sophisticated, respected Shadowmaster who could have pretty much any woman he wants. I would like this to be denied to those characters who couldn't charm their way into the heart of a man who's been marooned for 30 years.

 

I played that encounter. It was a fun little conversation. Are we talking about the same one? There's no "winning the heart of" or anything remotely like what you're talking about. Unless you mean only a Charisma of 14, a Wisdom of 12 (but less than 14) Elven, Bard, Rep <16, should only and ever be able to just _talk_ to him then I don't understand your point. It doesn't change any path to Spellhold and if you aren't working for him you don't have a chance for the encounter. He doesn't even give all that much more "personal attention" than to what is already there in the regular encounter.

 

I read your first post. It doesn't even address the actual content, and I'm hard pressed to take you seriously. Firkaag thinks you're a weirdo no matter how pretty you are, Busya won't put up with a jerk with or without armor. And who cares about content specifially for Bertram the Creepy Gnomish Man-Whore? Maybe nobody wanted to write it. I didn't see the note that said this was to be a checklist of encounters that would include each race/gender.

 

Think for a moment what would happen if you actually did implement checks to reflect how selective Character X would probably be. Would that be so terrible? Would vast swathes of the game suddenly become unplayable for all but a select few characters who managed to roll natural 18s in Charisma? Or would it help provide a tiny additional impetus to, heaven forfend, roleplay? Granted, there will always be those who will just slip on a ring, and maybe chug a potion or two, in order to read a dirty story. But perhaps this way, maybe we can at least make a few of them feel a little bit guilty about it.

 

Emphasis mine. If this is really what this entire topic is about then, well... I will cheat if I wish for whatever reasons I want. Why on earth do you care if people feel guilty? I just can't feel guilty for playing my game the way I want.