SR V2.9

[Salk]

Demivrgvs,

 

some small replies:

 

Meteor Swarm

 

I agree with Six: make half of its damage crushing and half fire. It doesn't matter if Comet loses a little of its uniqueness.

 

(Un)Holy Word

 

Perhaps you know it by now. I never approved of SCS changing the summoned fiends gender from "summon" to "male" because I do believe Protection from Evil should grant protection from them so I ask you: what stops SR from reverting the gender to its original value? The SCS AI will make use of summons when the party is protected from them but that's not a great drawback since the protection against them will dissipate as soon as any hostile action is taken (at least P&P Protection from Evil says so).

 

Time Stop

 

We all think it is overpowered so I suggest something: why not reduce its duration from 3 to 2 rounds?

 

Lighting Bolt

 

I don't think that Six's complaint about a new Lightning Bolt revision the way we suggested (damage to close NPCs at range 1 or 2) being just "another area spell" makes much sense. Yes, Lightning Bolt would become a spell with a minimum AoE but so what? It does make sense and it seems appropriate anyway in this case. Why shouldn't we make this spell more interesting only because there are other AoE in the game?

 

This of course applies to the present situation where the optimal solution is not codable.

[Ardanis]

that's not a great drawback since the protection against them will dissipate as soon as any hostile action is taken

I've heard a lot about Pro Undead scroll abuse that would let one to wander around bashing dead things and they wouldn't even care. Same for fiends, I'm afraid.

Not that I really care though, as it's just only a part of AI.

[Salk]

that's not a great drawback since the protection against them will dissipate as soon as any hostile action is taken

I've heard a lot about Pro Undead scroll abuse that would let one to wander around bashing dead things and they wouldn't even care. Same for fiends, I'm afraid.

Not that I really care though, as it's just only a part of AI.

 

Yes, that would be bad.

 

I mean, abuse in general is bad.

 

I know that many modders care a lot about trying to introduce changes so that specific cheesy situations cannot be exploited but since, in my opinion, players that, example, sleep in one cave 100 times to just kill the respawned monsters and level up quickly, play on the borderline of cheating, I don't think it's right to put an effort to stop them from doing so.

 

It's their choice, they are willingly taking advantage of a specific issue that is not anyway a bug.

 

The Protection from Evil should protect from attacks made by Summons a la Sanctuary.

 

Undead should keep their gender as Undead and not have it changed to Monster so that they can't in that way be turned. Clerics have the powers to turn undeads and there should not be exceptions to that.

 

Same thing about summons: they should be categorized as summons because that's what they are.

[Demivrgvs]

Protection from Evil

Perhaps you know it by now. I never approved of SCS changing the summoned fiends gender from "summon" to "male" because I do believe Protection from Evil should grant protection from them so I ask you: what stops SR from reverting the gender to its original value? The SCS AI will make use of summons when the party is protected from them but that's not a great drawback since the protection against them will dissipate as soon as any hostile action is taken (at least P&P Protection from Evil says so).

This has been already extensively discussed thus I'll try to summarize:

- PnP Protection from Evil dissipates if any hostile action is taken but that isn't easily implementable (I'm not even sure it could be done, and if it can it would require scripts);

- BG's Protection from Evil is too easily exploitable;

- Pit Fiends can cast Dispel Magic at will, they would just be able to dispel it anyway. SCS pratically only makes it more "user-friendly", and having a 24HD creature constantly cast Dispel Magic on the party would be even more annoying imo;

Thus I think that though it's sub-optimal SCS's change is an improvement in terms of gameplay.

 

Time Stop

We all think it is overpowered so I suggest something: why not reduce its duration from 3 to 2 rounds?

Well...in PnP the spell lasts 1D3 rounds but I'm quite sure most players wouldn't like it, am I wrong?

 

Lighting Bolt

I don't think that Six's complaint about a new Lightning Bolt revision the way we suggested (damage to close NPCs at range 1 or 2) being just "another area spell" makes much sense. Yes, Lightning Bolt would become a spell with a minimum AoE but so what? It does make sense and it seems appropriate anyway in this case. Why shouldn't we make this spell more interesting only because there are other AoE in the game?

 

This of course applies to the present situation where the optimal solution is not codable.

I think Six was just suggesting another solution, that I do prefer too over mine. The problem is that unless I discover a way to code it we have to make it as we can.

[Jarno Mikkola]

Protection from Evil

- Pit Fiends can cast Dispel Magic at will, they would just be able to dispel it anyway.

Is it at will? Or is it after casting the spell? There is a difference...(and besides, the Pit Fiend wouldn't know where to target the spell. But that might also be hard to do to any foolproof effect.)

Another idea is to make them to have a dispel fireball(5d6), so it burns out the invisible hiders.

 

Time Stop

We all think it is overpowered so I suggest something: why not reduce its duration from 3 to 2 rounds?

Well...in PnP the spell lasts 1D3 rounds but I'm quite sure most players wouldn't like it, am I wrong?

I do prefer the 3 turns, as the other spell storage spells(Sequencers) have three, why not this... and won't that interfear with the Lich scripts too...

 

Lighting Bolt

We all prefer the bouncing from one enemy to another, but it's hard, we know. Now, if we consider using the stunt effect as the secondary ability, then we must remember to use the current hitpoints as the base if the hit target gets to make save throw and on what bonus... as I doubt that a gibberling(10HP minus the bolt damage) can go without stunt after just one bolt, but a dragon can even without a save, unless it has less than 40 current hitpoints...

 

And yes, Demivrgvs was right, the Insect spells use projectiles, it was a mod that made them creatures .

a pack of beholders?

:Grohm: :D :beholder: :beholder:

[Ardanis]

Lighting Bolt

I think that the bouncing effect is better to be reserved for Chain Lightning. That's a chain for you after all. Not sure if that's impossible to code - just build a chain () of secondary projectiles.

 

Time Stop

I too prefer to keep it 3 rounds. I don't even use it, so lowering duration will leave enemies with less time to play around.

[Shaitan]

Time Stop

I too prefer to keep it 3 rounds.

 

Me too

[culmore]

Globe of Invulnerability

I know this was mention in a separate thread apologies if I missed it in this one. But what about GoI being immune to dispel magic? Or is it to much of a nerf to paladins?

Why would it nerf paladins? Anyway, I fear that would make MGoI and GoI really too powerful. If you want to stop Dispel Magic with a spell I think SI:Abj would be more appropriate. I'll open a dedicated topic on this matter as it's really hard to determine how effective are things like SI, GoI and Dispel, especially when they interact.

 

Isn't Keldorn a paladin? An inquisitor then. It would make his dispel much less powerful. As most mages in scs2 cast GoI. So his dispel would just bounce off. The upside is that anyone with a mage in their group would be better defended against a high level mage casting remove magic (thus better defended against liches). Cast limited wish and give each party member a mGoI.

[Ardanis]

I myself usually aviod using Dispel/Reamove Magic as being random and possibly uber cheesy. Unless enemies have a small number protections on (RR's thieves come to my mind). I sort of treat it as an opposite to Breach - removes one or two things from everyone in an area. Neither do I like all of my buffs being dispelled in a single hit (smart AI... hrmmm...)

 

It's not an issue to let paladin's one to bypass GoI, worry not about that.

[culmore]

I myself usually aviod using Dispel/Reamove Magic as being random and possibly uber cheesy.

 

Random/cheesy agreed!!! I don't cast remove/dispel much myself either. I'd rather have a way to beat an enemy that did not trust to chance. I have wondered if people do use remove magics as a way to bring down enemy mage defences, as I did read about some using three remove magics in a sequencer. I thought this (sequencer) was a good thinking but not really how I want the mechanics of the game to work.

 

Neither do I like all of my buffs being dispelled in a single hit (smart AI... hrmmm...)

 

The main problem exactly! Spend 3 minutes getting your group buffed and then one dispel from a level 35 lich and they are all gone. Unfair if you ask me, certainly it makes the buffing pointless and a waste of spell slots.

 

It's not an issue to let paladin's one to bypass GoI, worry not about that.

 

Ahh ha!!! Did not know that good news thanks. Then the idea gets better.

[Demivrgvs]

Meteor Swarm

I agree with Six: make half of its damage crushing and half fire. It doesn't matter if Comet loses a little of its uniqueness.

I've thought about it a little more and this change would have two side effects:

- some creatures (e.g. Pit Fiends) currently cast it over themselves because they are immune to fire, thus I would have to check every instance of this event and make the creature completely immune to the spell via "protection from spell" opcode. The problem is that I would also have to check if there's any spellcaster that does it after casting Protection from Fire or similar things...

- the spell is not party friendly, but as a fire-only spell you were able to make a character immune to fire and cast Meteor Swarm anyway. This wouldn't be possible if we add crushing damage.

 

Time Stop

We all think it is overpowered so I suggest something: why not reduce its duration from 3 to 2 rounds?

Well...in PnP the spell lasts 1D3 rounds but I'm quite sure most players wouldn't like it, am I wrong?

I do prefer the 3 turns, as the other spell storage spells(Sequencers) have three, why not this... and won't that interfear with the Lich scripts too...

I too prefer to keep it 3 rounds. I don't even use it, so lowering duration will leave enemies with less time to play around.

I too prefer to keep it 3 rounds.

What was I saying? Anyway it's obvious that this spell is overpowered in its current version as 3 rounds are extremely more effective than PnP's 1D3 rounds!

 

There's another possible way to nerf it, but discussing it with Mike he was very convinced about it being "not-appropriate": not allowing physical attacks during Time Stop a la 3rd edition. Actually in 3rd edition you can't even cast spell to targets, you can only move around and cast spells which doesn't need targets, pratically making Time Stop a defensive-only spell. Feel free to disregard this suggestion as well, as I'm not convinced myself about it, and it slightly ruins SCS's cast'n attack routine during Time Stops.

Lighting Bolt

I think that the bouncing effect is better to be reserved for Chain Lightning. That's a chain for you after all. Not sure if that's impossible to code - just build a chain ( ) of secondary projectiles.

The problem is assigning a single target to a secondary projectile, as it's not possible to do something like "cast at nearest enemy" via EFF files.

[Raj]

3 rounds for casting defensive or even offensive spells is not something that should lead to a time stop nerf imo, and it's already a nerf to the spell that should last 1d4+1 rounds. I'm not used to 4ed yet so can't find references to it ( anyway 4ed sux )

 

The cast and attack routine is what makes time stop so lame ( and against pnp rules ) but it's integrated in all AI enhancing mods

 

 

 

Meteor Swarm has been removed from SCS2 magic users due of it being useless in the vanilla incarnation so you won't find anybody casting it. I don't like the idea of blunt damage btw, it's already powerful enough for the party.

 

 

 

Death Spell

Thinking about that, Death Spell is very nice during the first half of SoA but late in SoA is useful just against summons while in ToB it loses all the appeal. It's a bit silly for a powerful spell being lethal for a level 8 opponent but completely useless against a level 9 Improve it a bit maybe? ( like allowing to kill creatures up to casterlev/2 or casterlev-4, with a save for those higher than 8, or creating a death zone for enemies summoned later... )

You're suggesting a sort of lesser Wail of the Banshee. Problem is that even allowing it to affect 9HD creatures means that the spell may kill for example Beholders. Would it be appropriate for a 6th level spell to have a friendly large AoE effect able to kill a pack of beholders?

 

By the time you are level 18-20 ? imo yes, with a save allowed or a max creatures limit, whatever. Anyway I'm just saying it's a useless spell for late SoA and ToB and could use some improvment.

[Demivrgvs]

Time Stop

3 rounds for casting defensive or even offensive spells is not something that should lead to a time stop nerf imo, and it's already a nerf to the spell that should last 1d4+1 rounds. I'm not used to 4ed yet so can't find references to it ( anyway 4ed sux )

That's incorrect. The spell lasts 1d4+1 rounds only in 3rd edition, and only because in that edition you can only cast defensive spells during it.

 

In AD&D you are allowed to cast offensive spells and to physically attacks opponents during Time Stop, and because of its effectiveness it lasted 1d3 rounds.

 

P.S. Yeah, 4th edition is the worst ever. They pratically took D&D and transformed it into a lame clone of World of Warcraft.

 

The cast and attack routine is what makes time stop so lame ( and against pnp rules ) but it's integrated in all AI enhancing mods

Exactly what I think. Time Stop overpowerness doesn't come from 3 rounds of free casting (sequencers pratically allow the same), physical attacks during Time Stop and cast'n attack routine are the true problem imo. Tha's why I suggested to block physical attacks, but my solution isn't "issue free" as we have already stated, and it probably doesn't make much sense too (why shouldn't a caster be able to hit a creature?).

[culmore]

P.S. Yeah, 4th edition is the worst ever. They pratically took D&D and transformed it into a lame clone of World of Warcraft.

 

Now that is funny!

[Salk]

Exactly what I think. Time Stop overpowerness doesn't come from 3 rounds of free casting (sequencers pratically allow the same), physical attacks during Time Stop and cast'n attack routine are the true problem imo. Tha's why I suggested to block physical attacks, but my solution isn't "issue free" as we have already stated, and it probably doesn't make much sense too (why shouldn't a caster be able to hit a creature?).

 

Well, the PnP duration seems to me anyway an improvement over the fixed 3 rounds, especially when we consider the perfected routines that the AI mods come with.

 

A duration of 2 rounds is not liked by the players but what about an hybrid PnP/BG?

 

It could be good to have the duration become 1D4.

 

In this way, the enemy AI won't systematically always use the 3 rounds sequences but only the 50% of the times.

 

Time Stop would still be powerful because in one case it is even better, and in one it's just the same, leaving only a 50% chance of being less effective (which is good, because Time Stop is too powerful and abused by enemy AI). This introduced randomness is, in my opinion, positive.