Kit Revisions (Rangers)

[Jarno Mikkola]

True Ranger

..... in the long run we might indeed discover we need one of the two classic "disadvantages" from 3E (medium armor and d8).

I'd vote medium armor. Even the in-game description of constitution says that it's important for rangers. And honestly, I fail to see ranger in full-plate.

I would vote for the 3 prof stars at the start... yeah, the weapon type prof only is a given penalty for the other benefits, dah.

 

Animalistic Power - I'm not convinced myself, it's pretty much a copy of cleric/paladin Draw Upon Divine Might

Since it's Animalistic, why not disable stealth, potions and spellcasting - could work I guess (and I see a nice combo with Berserker here)

Erhm, the penalties could also be lessened at level ups... allow: potions at level 5, stealth at level 10, and spell casting at level 15. Edited July 28, 2013 by Jarno Mikkola

[Lawlight]

Hunter's eye - self only, +1 backstab multiplier (aka x2 for True Ranger)

Cool idea. x2 isn't op and expands the use of stealth.

[Pacek]

Please oh please don't force Minsc out of Full Plate! If he wants to wear it, let him. Besides, as has been noted before, there's enough incentive to wear light armours, and esp. with Item Revisions. I'm not too fond of being herded to the green pastures, I'll make my own way there thank you! (A philosophy you should bear in mind for all kit revisions IMO.)

[kreso]

Hunter's eye - self only, +1 backstab multiplier (aka x2 for True Ranger)

Cool idea. x2 isn't op and expands the use of stealth.

I see several issues with this. If you give this to True Ranger, he'll be just as good for backstabbing as a Stalker in BG1 is now, making him redundant.

If you give this to Stalker, his backstab gets too big and on par with thieves, which is imo wrong.

[Jarno Mikkola]

I see several issues with this. If you give this to True Ranger, he'll be just as good for backstabbing as a Stalker in BG1 is now, making him redundant.

If you give this to Stalker, his backstab gets too big and on par with thieves, which is imo wrong.

In my view, this can be set in balance with the thieves ... as long as it's high enough level, it doesn't matter if the ranger(&stalker) gets a x2(x3) damage when the thief get's a x4 and x5.

PS, with IR, you can only backstab with so many items...

Edited July 29, 2013 by Jarno Mikkola

[Ardanis]

Right now I'm not limiting True Ranger's armor proficiency, even if I believe medium armor is more than enough. I'm only considering it because at level 1 this class gets too many things compared to a True Fighter. At least heavy armors blocks Stealth (even with IR where you can hide with heavier armors you still need very high stealth skill before even try it), and Wild Empathy is situational, but the free spec (++) in two weapon style is really a huge bonus early on (leaving aside that I don't like it is forced on you - not everyone wants to play a clone of Drizzt).

 

On a side note, if we'll ever need a small nerf for Rangers, I'd dare to suggest making them get d8 HDs as per 3E (if I'm not wrong ToBEx allows to do things like this now).

I vote for both medium armor (not like it matters, just don't wear it) and d8.

 

Divine Spellcasting

Alternatively, instead of limiting new spells to a particular kit, True Rangers might get all of them while each kit is limited to some "spheres" (e.g. Beast Master focuses on summons and summon buff; only True Ranger and Stalker gets Camouflage, Hunter's Eye and Non-detection; Archer does not get certain spells; etc.).

Yes. Same for paladins, I think.

 

Camouflage

IIRC the idea was to have +20% stealth and quite a long duration. I'd also let it be usable on others (BG1 thieves will appreciate).

 

Animalistic Power

No spellcasting/potions sounds good.

Or take Enrage Animal maybe.

 

Hunter's eye

With IR's backstabbing component, i.e. reduced multiplier on heavy and ranged weapon, a Ranger with a longsword still wouldn't benefit from +1 bonus, but Stalker will get to a double modifier.

If you give this to Stalker, his backstab gets too big and on par with thieves, which is imo wrong.

Why would it be wrong?

1) It's not permanent

2) It's only can get as much as equal to a thief, not better (nevermind an Assassin).

 

Snare

I would appreciate greatly an entangling trap spell.

Edited August 2, 2013 by Ardanis

[kreso]

Why would it be wrong?

1) It's not permanent

2) It's only can get as much as equal to a thief, not better (nevermind an Assassin).

 

ad 1) It may not be permanent, but how many times do you need to backstab a mage? One is all it takes usually, and x4 early BG2 this is quite OP imo .

ad 2) you said it, it equals thieves.

In addition, they have 4 pips to start, free dual-wield and a better Hit Dice. I don't think Stalker needs any further enhancements, it's already very powerful.

[Demivrgvs]

Hunter's Eye

Why would it be wrong?

1) It's not permanent

2) It's only can get as much as equal to a thief, not better (nevermind an Assassin).

ad 1) It may not be permanent, but how many times do you need to backstab a mage? One is all it takes usually, and x4 early BG2 this is quite OP imo .

ad 2) you said it, it equals thieves.

In addition, they have 4 pips to start, free dual-wield and a better Hit Dice. I don't think Stalker needs any further enhancements, it's already very powerful.

1) since when the only targets you want to backstab are mages? With SCS pre-buffs I actually expect them to be among the less vulnerable targets assuming they have stoneskins up, but even excluding that do you really expect your Thief or Stalker to backstab only once per day?

 

I suppose you mean Stalker's temporary x4 backstab is OP, because thieves always had it. Point taken, but with IR if your Stalker uses long swords or heavier weapons he will suffer at least -1 penalty to backstab multiplier. That component of IR is a sort of "cap" imposed on backstab damage potential (no more ultra damaging sneak attacks with things like Staff of the Ram or katanas).

 

2) leaving aside that new spells are on hold until Pacek or Arda work on icons, the eventual Hunter's Eye spell would be available the first time at level 8 (by that time KR's Thief will be able to do much much than just backstab), and it was mostly intended to give the True Ranger a unique PnP spell which imo has a great sinergy with a fundamental class feature, stealth. For the base class it just means getting x2 multiplier (fun and somewhat useful, but hardly game breaking), and if Stalker's backstab becomes OP we could always limit this spell to the base class.

[kreso]

Above is true ofc, but if only for SCS/full prebuff (and not all mages in BG1 know stoneskin, and many will not cast it if they don't actually see you, they will insta-cast but this only works if they're not dead ) and the abovementioned IR component (but it's also true for thieves, not only Stalkers).

Also, Stalker gets 18/xx strenght, making him even more likely to connect with his backstab than a thief.

Basically, if you really want this feature on them (I'd skip this spell completely, even for trueclass if just for RP reasons - I don't see ranger as somebody who kills by backstabs. Staker excluded ofc, but this kit has very little in common with a ranger imo) than implement it. If it shows too powerful, remove it. Ends up balanced and keeping the kit optimized (especially true class), even better.

[Kalindor]

I see no reason why we should object to this spell giving Rangers a pseudo-thief ability. We have already allowed Tenser's Transformation to give mages pseudo-fighter abilities. I don't think there is any risk of this spell superseding thieves.

[kreso]

Stalker

- At 1st level, can backstab with a x2 damage multiplier, which increases to x3 at level 9 and x4 at level 17.

You know this is vanilla table, right? It's only the in-game description that's wrong.

 

Cannot use shields.

Not even buckler?

 

Notes:

KR's Stalker is just an improved/refined version of vanilla's kit, clearly based upon AD&D version. The only similar class I could find in more recent PnP editions is 3E Darkwood Stalker.

Ha. They stole the Darkwood name from that comic Za-gor Te-Nay. Epic. Will you be implementing Uncanny Dodge, Death attack or Dodge Critical as well?

-

the Stalker is now limited to use weapons suited to backstab as per AD&D.

This seems fine.

[kreso]

Archer gets both Tracking and Wild Empathy. Intended?

For now yes. As one of you (not sure who right now) said that keeping spellcasting helps making the kit look like a ranger kit rather than a fighter kit, the same way I thought that tracking and wild empathy are a really defining features, together with stealth. Am I wrong?

No, you're not wrong. It does make True class quite unappealing, however.

 

both Wild Empathy and Tracking need mid-level upgrades.

They aren't implemented then? The description only says that it gets "significantly better at 10th and 19th level". Now, if you can make Wild Empathy useful at 19th my hat is off to you.

 

Quoted here for consistency.

Edited August 7, 2013 by kreso

[Demivrgvs]

Archer

Archer gets both Tracking and Wild Empathy. Intended?

For now yes. As one of you (not sure who right now) said that keeping spellcasting helps making the kit look like a ranger kit rather than a fighter kit, the same way I thought that tracking and wild empathy are a really defining features, together with stealth. Am I wrong?

No, you're not wrong. It does make True class quite unappealing, however.

I do said the base class is the one in need of more love. For the first few levels spec in melee weapons and heavy armor should keep the True Ranger quite appealing, and later on I need to find a way to nerf Archer's spellcasting in some way (while casting speed penalty might work for a melee kit, for an Archer it's not going to be much noticeable) while improving Ranger's options.

 

both Wild Empathy and Tracking need mid-level upgrades.

They aren't implemented then? The description only says that it gets "significantly better at 10th and 19th level". Now, if you can make Wild Empathy useful at 19th my hat is off to you.

Actually there's no mention of a level 19 upgrade anymore. I'll try to surprise you, but making this ability cool at epic levels is near impossible imo.

 

 

Stalker

- At 1st level, can backstab with a x2 damage multiplier, which increases to x3 at level 9 and x4 at level 17.

You know this is vanilla table, right? It's only the in-game description that's wrong.

I knew about x2 at level 1 but I forgot about x4 at level 17. Well, I guess it's even better if we don't need heavy changes, isn't it? After all this kit already was quite good imo, only a little overshadowed by a F/T combo, but I think KR's revised spellcasting should be the focus for making him feel different from just a gimped F/T.

 

Cannot use shields.

Not even buckler?

I forgot about it, this line probably is ages old. Bucklers are fine yes.

 

KR's Stalker is just an improved/refined version of vanilla's kit, clearly based upon AD&D version. The only similar class I could find in more recent PnP editions is 3E Darkwood Stalker.

Ha. They stole the Darkwood name from that comic Za-gor Te-Nay. Epic. Will you be implementing Uncanny Dodge, Death attack or Dodge Critical as well?

the Stalker is now limited to use weapons suited to backstab as per AD&D.

This seems fine.

I've linked it more for the sake of information than other. AD&D Stalker didn't have a real backstab ability, but only an initiative advantage when catching the opponent by surprise, while the linked 3E PrC has the actual sneak attack feature. Anyway, I don't know if I want this class to get so many rogue-like features, but we can keep them into account if we'll ever need ideas to improve this kit.

 

- the Stalker is now limited to use weapons suited to backstab as per AD&D.

This seems fine.

This is a must imo, and not just because "it's PnP", but because the kit would lack any relevant hindrance without it considering heavy armors would not be a real option even if he could wear them. Without a noticeable drawback this kit would be extremely better than the base class imo, getting a powerful backstab ability pretty much for free.

 

On a side note, even without restricting Rangers to medium armors as per recent editions, I expect KR's players to make a True Ranger opt for medium armors (if not light) most of the times. With IR, medium armors offer a good compromise between protection and encumbrance, and unlike vanilla you can still use stealth. Heavy armors are going to be available, but kinda unpractical for most builds because of heavy DEX, mobility and stealth penalties.

Edited August 7, 2013 by Demivrgvs

[kreso]

Stalker

I knew about x2 at level 1 but I forgot about x4 at level 17. Well, I guess it's even better if we don't need heavy changes, isn't it? After all this kit already was quite good imo, only a little overshadowed by a F/T combo, but I think KR's revised spellcasting should be the focus for making him feel different from just a gimped F/T.

One change I'd make is x3 at 8th and x4 at 16th, if for nothing else than to make it slightly more appealing for BG1 end level.

[Demivrgvs]

@Beta testers, if you are going to try the Ranger and Archer, keep in mind the former is a bit more "unfinished" but overall the current classes should be quite good and playing them could help us to determine:

- the real value of the now unique ranger spellbook (much faster progression but reduced variety of spells; are eventual new spells a must to make it good?)

- the effective "power level" of the True Ranger, especially compared to KR's True Fighter and True Paladin (this is the most crucial thing to understand imo)

- Archer's eventual OPness (this is one the least changed kits within KR, but I expect the new Called Shot system to make it even more powerful than it already was)

 

 

Stalker

I knew about x2 at level 1 but I forgot about x4 at level 17. Well, I guess it's even better if we don't need heavy changes, isn't it? After all this kit already was quite good imo, only a little overshadowed by a F/T combo, but I think KR's revised spellcasting should be the focus for making him feel different from just a gimped F/T.

One change I'd make is x3 at 8th and x4 at 16th, if for nothing else than to make it slightly more appealing for BG1 end level.

Well, at level 8 the Stalker will get level 2 spells, which will also potentially include Hunter's Eye (increase backstab multiplier by 1 for 1 round). Regardless, this is really a small change which can be made after some playtesting.