Bards

[Kalindor]

I agree with not allowing Bards to gain 8th and 9th level spells. I would be fine with 7th level late in the game, however.

[Jarno Mikkola]

It works fine for the wildmage

My thinking on this matter is similar to Demivrgs but it's due to different facts, mine comes from the bards being able to cast higher level spells, and his comes from the fact that he would have to make more special spells, that are not that different from the higher level spells, or then make a tons of innate abilities etc, and that's not a good approach in my eyes either.

 

@Jarno, I don't know if I have to take you seriously or not. Anyway...

Well, then take it semi seriously, there's usually a laughter or two for me inside my messages... and there's no slaughter, if I can't have the "laughter".

 

... the mage gets the best magic user armor, in other words, the +2/+4 reduction to casting time. Its better than what a bard can get. And if you have time stop at casting time 5, it's better than what the bard can ever do with his armor :lol:

The "armor" you are speaking of isn't available withing BG1, and even within BG2 it's a late game item. Armors offers much better physical protection, and the ability to use them will open up tons of opportunities, even more so with IR.

Erhm, but the elf chain mails are not in BG1 either, they are late BG2 - SoA "invention", and as the leather armor restricts spell casting without the IR's ruleset that removes the penalties ... the bards are in for a real pickle. In BGEE there's one armor that allows casting(the chan12 in BG2), it also features thieving penalties... in the regular, there are no armors and a few per alignment robes that gives actual AC 5(same as the armor, in addition there are AC bracers, from AC 8 to AC 6 ).

 

Btw, Bards can eventually be able to use any item via HLA, thus they have armors early on, and that late game item too if you wish so.

Yeah, and some mods remove it, -yes, that was a smile for the specific reason, joke or something.- Well, yeah, but at that point, does the armor( AC ) really help you... when facing dragon enemies, with thac0 at -13 etc. The HLA has it's limits too. And again the armors won't allow casting without special opcode block, which by the by also blocks other similar effects that ... should maybe not be blocked. (the clerics Miscast Magic spell etc).

 

I really don't have the time to explain how faulty this logic is, in so many ways. Let's give everything to everyone then, just in different doses. Who cares about classes having unique features!

Well, my bard has more lower level spells than the mage (unique fact )... yours, well has barely any spells, especially when thinking about the XP table you bring with the mod, would it still be the original, the bard actually had a partial potential, but as of now... I fear it lacks behind enormously.

 

I guess you have never played a Blade then, as that bard even in vanilla is a devastating killing machine able to both tank better than a warrior (MI, Stoneskin, PfMW, etc.) and benefit from fighting-oriented spells better than pure mages (Improved Haste, Tenser Transformation, etc.). KR's revised thac0/saves tables are not to be underestimated too, as compared to vanilla rogues are the ones who benefit the most from them (the 5 points of thac0 alone are a HUGE improvement imo).

Well, we can shift the Blades thac0 table by setting the bonuses where we like, and as of now, they really need a lot of placements. What comes to the spells, the PfMW is the reason why the table cuts at 7 memorizations on the said spell level, also you got to remember that the spell itself is nothing when it can be removed, but it's invulnerability when it can't be or it's replaced with the same thing in the same second(a higher level spell allows this), and that actually makes the whole spell cheesed in an never ending sea of cream. I bet no one got this.

 

Well, we have already agreed on granting a Lingering Song effect (aka small ongoing duration even when stop singing), and Bard's songs aren't even remotely as situational as Turn Undead, they have way more utility and potential.

Like I have said, I would love to see that... when my mage begins to cast Time Stop, my bard begins to sing. :/

 

Yes, later on the hp difference starts to matter less, but those 20-40 hit points can still save you, and early on (e.g. BG1) even a small 10-20hp difference is a real boon to have.

Well, the difference is total of 28 HPs, or whatever. This with a small tweak to all the HP tables I am considering, the amount becomes, less than large. Yes, 8 or 6 HPs at start of the game is not what a human hero would usually have(there's a book of the BG that the hero was somewhat accomplished character before the whole adventure started... aka you can give every character +20 HPs, I did).

 

(Un)fortunately I don't have more time to discuss this right now. I hope I made my points clear anyway.

Yes, and I would like to see a reply to all or most of the point in my reply too. Ouh, and I welcome you to try to convince me (and ahh to hell with the others ) too ... I would like to think that talking about things produces better results. Ouh, and you can always disagree and say no.

Of course your primary focus needs to be coding the mod, but I have found that talking about things can help as a distraction when the coding needs the distraction.

 

I agree with not allowing Bards to gain 8th and 9th level spells. I would be fine with 7th level late in the game, however.

Hmm, how would you build the table ( mxsplbrd.2da ) ?

[yarpen]

I'm ok with Bards being able to cast Level 7 spells. That makes them masters of being adept of magic. That'd actually make it possible to have a Bard as your MAIN arcane spellcaster and I truly believe that should be a thing.

I also do like the idea of Bards earning more spells per day than mages. Make up for lower max-spell level by stretching the progress in terms of amounts of spells of certain level they can cast.

Bards do need other strong points though. I'd buff their base Pickpocket. I want it to be an usefull skill in the game. And loosing it by some kits should be an actual disadvantage.

Bardsongs are still too blurry topic. I hope Demi is okay with multiple bardsongs and soon he'll show his implementation.

And for sure, Bards shouldn't suffer spellcasting hindrance from any kind of armor.

 

Also, I do have an idea for Bardsong. Bard should be someone who's presence buffs up every other part of your team. So...

 

Bardsong now grants:

- Bonus to Attack Rolls and Armor Class for Warriors (+1/+2/+3)

- Bonus to Spellcasting Level/Speed for Casters (Divine and Arcane) (+1/+2/+3)

- Bonus to Thieving Skills for Rogues (+5%/+10%/+15%)

 

So everyone gets better just at what he's best on.

 

That'd probably stretching the description a bit too much, but seems as plausible idea.

 

To actually balance bards tho, I'd say school restriction could be fine. Removing Invocations, Necromancy and maybe even Divination would make them much more limited in terms of spell access - which allows us, to buff their overall spellcasting performance.

[Jarno Mikkola]

Bards do need other strong points though. I'd buff their base Pickpocket. I want it to be an useful skill in the game.

Yeah, capping it at 99 around the level 14 was a really stupid decision by the original makers. Same goes for the ranger stealth skill. 155 caps for all.

 

I would not put the spell casting speed bonuses to the bard songs, but the rest would be kinda good over all bonus from loosing that one party members abilities...

 

7th level spell casting hardly makes for a main spell caster material at ToB... especially when considering that it's usual to make the table to open up(less spells per level gained).

[kreso]

Random toughts:

- 6th level spells limitation is one of few very good developer choices for bards imo, I wouldn't let them cast above that. They can use scrolls, and they're not mages, nor should they be.

- if some things need improving upon, it's their songs (especially true class)

- blade kit is insane in its current incarnation, at any given level above 3, moreover since he's more of a fighter/mage than a bard, which is silly when you think of it, since it's a bard kit. Both spins should be toned down. As it is, he can deal more damage and attack faster than a fighter can prior to level 7.

- I wouldn't give them a slew of new songs, 1 or 2 is enough per kit, I'd go with 1 which improves similar to what all kits kit (levels 1, 10, 19). Anything more is chore to handle.

- Jester's song should break any invisibilty from him

- spellcasting should be enabled while in armor

[Demivrgvs]

Ok, I'll try to be exhaustive this time around, but Kreso pretty much summarized my thoughts very well.

 

Unique spellbook

It works fine for the wildmage

My thinking on this matter is similar to Demivrgs but it's due to different facts, mine comes from the bards being able to cast higher level spells, and his comes from the fact that he would have to make more special spells, that are not that different from the higher level spells, or then make a tons of innate abilities etc, and that's not a good approach in my eyes either.

o.O @Grammarsalad, ignore Jarno, what he claims to be "my thinking" isn't "my thinking" at all.

 

The problem is that I don't have an "exclusion flag" to make certain spells or schools not available to bards. I can give Wild Mages unique spells because there's a "generalist mage exclusion flag", but my hands are tied for bards. As I said, I can give them a bunch of unique spells by default but having those spells already memorized when any other spell has to be learnt from scrolls would feel strange imo, no?

 

Just for the sake of completeness, I can say that we could do something similar to what I did for paladins/rangers, removing unappropriate spells from bard's spellbook at each level up, but it would look really terrible imo, considering you could still select those spells at character creation and learn them again and again via scrolls.

 

Spellcasting while wearing armors

... the mage gets the best magic user armor, in other words, the +2/+4 reduction to casting time. Its better than what a bard can get. And if you have time stop at casting time 5, it's better than what the bard can ever do with his armor :lol:

The "armor" you are speaking of isn't available withing BG1, and even within BG2 it's a late game item. Armors offers much better physical protection, and the ability to use them will open up tons of opportunities, even more so with IR.

Erhm, but the elf chain mails are not in BG1 either, they are late BG2 - SoA "invention", and as the leather armor restricts spell casting without the IR's ruleset that removes the penalties ...

Did I mentioned elven chains? No, because I was speaking of bards being allowed to cast spells while wearing any light armor, with or without IR.

 

Btw, Bards can eventually be able to use any item via HLA, thus they have armors early on, and that late game item too if you wish so.

Well, yeah, but at that point, does the armor( AC ) really help you... when facing dragon enemies, with thac0 at -13 etc.

That's why I said bards "have armors early on, and that late game item too if you wish so". If you don't care about AC start using Vecna/Larloch robe via HLA, if you still care about AC use armors (and they do play a big role even later on with IR imo).

 

The HLA has it's limits too. And again the armors won't allow casting without special opcode block, which by the by also blocks other similar effects that ... should maybe not be blocked. (the clerics Miscast Magic spell etc).

Our implementation won't block Miscast Magic, and it can be made to work for any install, be it vanilla's "disable spellcasting", Tweak Pack's "spell failure chance" or IR's "casting speed penalty". Armors are patched so that EFF files apply the respective penalty to all classes except bards.

 

I guess you have never played a Blade then, as that bard even in vanilla is a devastating killing machine able to both tank better than a warrior (MI, Stoneskin, PfMW, etc.) and benefit from fighting-oriented spells better than pure mages (Improved Haste, Tenser Transformation, etc.). KR's revised thac0/saves tables are not to be underestimated too, as compared to vanilla rogues are the ones who benefit the most from them (the 5 points of thac0 alone are a HUGE improvement imo).

Well, we can shift the Blades thac0 table by setting the bonuses where we like, and as of now, they really need a lot of placements. What comes to the spells, the PfMW is the reason why the table cuts at 7 memorizations on the said spell level, also you got to remember that the spell itself is nothing when it can be removed, but it's invulnerability when it can't be or it's replaced with the same thing in the same second(a higher level spell allows this), and that actually makes the whole spell cheesed in an never ending sea of cream. I bet no one got this.

I can hardly understand what you are saying here. Regardless, my point is that despite your claim that bards cannot perform as secondary melee fighters, they actually can, and they will perform even better with KR because of much better thac0, saves, AC (because of armors), etc.

 

Well, we have already agreed on granting a Lingering Song effect (aka small ongoing duration even when stop singing), and Bard's songs aren't even remotely as situational as Turn Undead, they have way more utility and potential.

Like I have said, I would love to see that... when my mage begins to cast Time Stop, my bard begins to sing. :/

What is this supposed to mean?

 

Bards vs. Mages

I'm ok with Bards being able to cast Level 7 spells. That makes them masters of being adept of magic. That'd actually make it possible to have a Bard as your MAIN arcane spellcaster and I truly believe that should be a thing.

Why should a Bard perform as a main arcane caster? He is not supposed to imo, just like a Druid is not supposed to completely make up for the lack of a Cleric in the party. They are different classes, and different classes should offer different things imo.

 

I also do like the idea of Bards earning more spells per day than mages. Make up for lower max-spell level by stretching the progress in terms of amounts of spells of certain level they can cast.

o.O So comparing bards and mages we would have the following...

 

Bards:

- d6 HD

- have good thac0

- can use most weapons

- have multiple powerful songs

- gets 7th lvl spells (and can still use 8th-9th lvl spells via scrolls if necessary)

- can cast spells while wearing armors

- get more spells per day than mages

- etc.

 

Mages

- ehm...they are worse in EVERYTHING but at level 16 they finally get 8th lvl spells!

 

Yes, it seems balanced to me, especially for levels 1-15.

 

To actually balance bards tho, I'd say school restriction could be fine. Removing Invocations, Necromancy and maybe even Divination would make them much more limited in terms of spell access - which allows us, to buff their overall spellcasting performance.

Not doable.

[Jarno Mikkola]

Unique spellbook

It works fine for the wildmage

My thinking on this matter is similar to Demivrgs but it's due to different facts, mine comes from the bards being able to cast higher level spells, and his comes from the fact that he would have to make more special spells, that are not that different from the higher level spells, or then make a tons of innate abilities etc, and that's not a good approach in my eyes either.

o.O @Grammarsalad, ignore Jarno, what he claims to be "my thinking" isn't "my thinking" at all.

 

The problem is that I don't have an "exclusion flag" to make certain spells or schools not available to bards. I can give Wild Mages unique spells because there's a "generalist mage exclusion flag", but my hands are tied for bards. As I said, I can give them a bunch of unique spells by default but having those spells already memorized when any other spell has to be learnt from scrolls would feel strange imo, no?

I was actually talking about it preemptively. And what comes to the exclusion flags:

To actually balance bards tho, I'd say school restriction could be fine. Removing Invocations, Necromancy and maybe even Divination would make them much more limited in terms of spell access - which allows us, to buff their overall spellcasting performance.

Not doable.

Have you though about this, I can flag the bard as a illusionist and thus prevent his access to Necromancy:

~0x0000 0400 5~	 //kitlist.2da

Or I can make the bard Abjurer, Conjurer, Diviner and Enchanter Bard:

~0x0000 03a0 5~	 //kitlist.2da

And leave him what ever is left.

 

What is this supposed to mean?

Well, it was supposed to mean that the power scale needs to be similar for one to take bard as it is when you take a mage... so when a mage-thief multiclass starts to cast his Time Stop, the bard can do something that help the party in a similar way(everyday without gold loose), be it what ever it is.

 

Did I mentioned elven chains? No, because I was speaking of bards being allowed to cast spells while wearing any light armor, with or without IR.

Light armor... yeah right, you need to be able to cast things in heavy plate armor before you can convince me that the bard gets any at all benefits from wearing armor instead of casting 9th level spells in the levels past 4 000 000xp. Considering that the bard is not taking the primary mages position, but the secondary arcane caster role, one that the Thief-mage multiclass is very much going for too, and he has fairly more things in his usage than the current bard... be it with 6th or 7th level cap at casting the spells.

[Demivrgvs]

Unique spellbook

Have you though about this, I can flag the bard as a illusionist and thus prevent his access to Necromancy:

~0x0000400 5~	 //kitlist.2da

Or I can make the bard Abjurer, Conjurer, Diviner and Enchanter Bard:

~0x0003a0 5~	 //kitlist.2da

And leave him what ever is left.

I do thought about it ages ago, but afaik that 2da column you are suggesting to edit handles items usability, not spell exclusions. They are two different things. And I may be wrong but I doubt you can assign multiple kits like you are suggesting.

 

What is this supposed to mean?

Well, it was supposed to mean that the power scale needs to be similar for one to take bard as it is when you take a mage... so when a mage-thief multiclass starts to cast his Time Stop, the bard can do something that help the party in a similar way(everyday without gold loose), be it what ever it is.

Leaving aside that to compare a class usefulness within a party the are TONS of things to keep into account and not just "1 ability vs 1 ability of similar power lvl", the way I see it, bard songs alone actually offer much more potential benefits to a party than 1 or 2 uses per day of Time Stop.

 

Did I mentioned elven chains? No, because I was speaking of bards being allowed to cast spells while wearing any light armor, with or without IR.

Light armor... yeah right, you need to be able to cast things in heavy plate armor before you can convince me that the bard gets any at all benefits from wearing armor instead of casting 9th level spells in the levels past 4 000 000xp. Considering that the bard is not taking the primary mages position, but the secondary arcane caster role, one that the Thief-mage multiclass is very much going for too, and he has fairly more things in his usage than the current bard... be it with 6th or 7th level cap at casting the spells.

Yeah, who cares if F/T cannot wear armors for most of the game, if his thac0 sucks (he uses rogue one but at halved progression rate), he has less spells than a bard for 3/4 of the game with a lower caster level (splitting lvl ups between 2 classes severely hampers mid-game spellcasting performance), he does not get bard songs, etc.

 

I'm not saying F/T is bad, he actually is a pretty great multi, but claiming that "bards suck unless they get 8th+ lvl spells" or "F/T is better just because it can potentially cast a 9th lvl spell per day for the last few encounters of ToB" without taking into account how these classes behave as a whole, during the entire game, is very short-minded.

[Jarno Mikkola]

Unique spellbook

Have you though about this, I can flag the bard as a illusionist and thus prevent his access to Necromancy:

~0x00000400 5~	 //kitlist.2da

Or I can make the bard Abjurer, Conjurer, Diviner and Enchanter Bard:

~0x0000 03a0 5~	 //kitlist.2da

And leave him what ever is left.

I do thought about it ages ago, but afaik that 2da column you are suggesting to edit handles items usability, not spell exclusions. They are two different things. And I may be wrong but I doubt you can assign multiple kits like you are suggesting.

Darn, I made a typo, fixed the above.... Well, I know I can assign multiple columns, there are several kit mods that practice this... as a matter of fact, you can assign the number up to 0xffffffff if you wish, as the value is a hex based to and then you can't use a darn item in the inventory. Yes, there is a difference between the item usability and spell class, but if you have to keep them both aligned in the spell file and scroll file, you won't run to problems.

 

Yeah, who cares if T/M cannot wear armors for most of the game, if his thac0 sucks (he uses rogue one but at halved progression rate), he has less spells than a bard for 3/4 of the game with a lower caster level (splitting lvl ups between 2 classes severely hampers mid-game spellcasting performance), he does not get bard songs, etc.

When saying half the progression rate, one needs to notice that most of the xp table is build onto facts like the 2* XP is one level of difference at low levels when the mages have the same progression rate as the rogues, and after which the benefits from gaining levels reduce or the values are actually capped.

[Demivrgvs]

Unique spellbook

I do thought about it ages ago, but afaik that 2da column you are suggesting to edit handles items usability, not spell exclusions. They are two different things. And I may be wrong but I doubt you can assign multiple kits like you are suggesting.

(i) Well, I know I can assign multiple columns... as a matter of fact, you can assign the number up to 0xffffffff if you wish, as the value is a hex based to and then you can't use a darn item in the inventory.

 

(ii)Yes, there is a difference between the item usability and spell class, but if you have to keep them both aligned in the spell file and scroll file, you won't run to problems.

(i) This is completely pointless considering that simply flagging certain items as unusable by bards achieve the same result. Perhaps I'm missing something but I really don't see any benefit from your suggested implementation.

 

(ii) Eh? What does "keep them both aligned in the spell file and scroll file" mean?

 

I could handle scrolls just fine, but if I cannot flag a spell as "excluded to bards" then I have two issues I cannot handle:

- UAI will allow the bard to learn spells from scrolls flagged as unusable for him

- at character creation you can pick prohibited spells (a BG2 issue, BG1 would be fine as long as bards still do not get spells at level 1)

The first issue probably isn't a big deal, but the second one is too big to ignore.

[yarpen]

There is S&S kit (Gypsy) that does have restrictions. From what I believe, you need to make scrolls of certain school non-usable for him and that does the trick. Yes, he can't even memorize them at the start of the game. Or isn't there an opcode for that?

And Bard is supposed to be your secondary arcane caster and secondary fighter. People should be able to use him as some kind of alternative for Wizard. Druid is an alternative to Cleric from what I've heard. Just as Sorcerer is already an alternative for Wizard.

Maybe Level 7 spells are too much, but welp - at least his daily limit of spells casted should become a bit better. And being able to cast spells since level 1 would help him a lot in BG1 as he'd be able to learn some spells already.

I hate wizards. I need someone who can cast Breach though.

 

WIZARD:

- d4

- severe weapon/armor restrictions

- can cast spells of certain levels much earlier (his progress in spell levels should be much faster)

- gains access to 8-9 level spells (and those are bombs)

- should get some kind of Metamagic abilities (Quick Casting, Empowered Casting)

- Contingencies in SR v4

 

BARD

- d6

- light weapon/armor restrictions

- can cast spells in armors

- better thac0

- much slower progress in spell levels available

- Bardsong

- Pickpocket

- Limited spells access (if doable)

 

You compare Revised Bard vs. non-Revised Wizard. Kind of unfair as whole "play Wizard or die" thing.

[Jarno Mikkola]

I could handle scrolls just fine, but if I cannot flag a spell as "excluded to bards" then I have two issues I cannot handle:

- UAI will allow the bard to learn spells from scrolls flagged as unusable for him

- at character creation you can pick prohibited spells (a BG2 issue, BG1 would be fine as long as bards still do not get spells at level 1)

The first issue probably isn't a big deal, but the second one is too big to ignore.

Well, you won't exlude the scroll unusable by bards cause you don't have the same tool in the spell tools, this leads to situations like not being able to use the scroll, but being able to learn the spell from it. The BG2 issue, well, my illusionist SoA(with BGT installed) starting character cannot select the necromancer spells(nor a wild magic ones, but that's because the class is special):

And he needs to choose one of the greens ones. I think the problem was a specific spell related, but not a regular one. I suspect Conjurer cheaters again or the fact that the exclusion table was switched a bit at some point. Yes, the Conjurers got the Evocation/Invocation spells in the switch, that they should not have.

There is S&S kit (Gypsy) that does have restrictions. From what I believe, you need to make scrolls of certain school non-usable for him and that does the trick. Yes, he can't even memorize them at the start of the game.

This is done by just making the gypsy kitlist.2da flag ~0x000000340 5~

It specifically means: Abjurer(0x0000 0040)-Diviner(0x0000 0100)-Enchanter(0x0000 0200)-Bard( 5~ ). Yes, kit exclusion flags, so he will be able to use the bard items that those kits are able to use, but also those items restricted from mages, but usable by bards, as they are actually allowed by those kit flags, as the mage class itself excludes those.

[Grammarsalad]

aren't you going to get rid of uai? Can't stand that one.

 

I have used the trick jarno and yarpin are talking about. I think the specialist abilities are tied to their usability. I think I had mixed results though (going back two years). Among other things, I think specialist bonuses--e.g. bonus to learn illusion spells for illusionist--are also tied to item usability.

 

Also, I am not sure you can change the usability of, say, the true bard, like that. I think it works best with newly created kits like the gipsy kit mentioned.above. I seem to remember trying that--by editing kitlist.2da--and it not working. I have little time these days--have to do research on autism for a recently aquired apprenticeship--yay!--but I'll try again soon to see if it works.

 

Edit: obviously, not kitlist. Lol. Been a while

[Jarno Mikkola]

aren't you going to get rid of uai? Can't stand that one.

Hopefully not. Anyways...

 

I have used the trick jarno and yarpin are talking about. I think the specialist abilities are tied to their usability. I think I had mixed results though (going back two years). Among other things, I think specialist bonuses--e.g. bonus to learn illusion spells for illusionist--are also tied to item usability.

I have to say this, there's no bonuses on learning spells, there is only the requirement... yes, the mage kits get a +1 to memorization on all levels, but this is due to them being specialized mage kits, not due to the item flags.

 

Also, I am not sure you can change the usability of, say, the true bard, like that. I think it works best with newly created kits like the gipsy kit mentioned.above. I seem to remember trying that--by editing kitlist.2da--and it not working.

I think the best way to do this is to have the kit based exclusion factors... so for example the Blade might not be able to use the Illusion spells(aka necromancer), while Jester could be sub-illusionist(aka no necromancy). Hmm although restricting the bards, and especially Blades from Alteration spells(aka make them abjurers) might be some ideal as there's Hastes, Time Stop and Tenser's Transformation.

And we should be able to allow a kit or two to have more spells than the others by setting up the mxsplbrd.2da so that it has the 1's in the levels and then reducing them to zero when needed or adding more in the clabxxxx.2da files.

 

- UAI will allow the bard to learn spells from scrolls flagged as unusable for him

Hmm, I don't think this is the case as the spell itself has the excusion flag, not the scroll... yes, he will be able to use the scroll to cast the spell from, but not able to memorize it. Yes, I was trying to say that you have to flag the scroll and the spell file to exclude the memorization, in one of the posts above.

In the BGT game of mine I made a Gipsy character and when I try to learn the Armor spell, I get "Your spell school does not permit you to learn this spell."... which is what it should be. This is with and without the UAI too, so.

[Kalindor]

aren't you going to get rid of uai? Can't stand that one.

 

IIRC, it will be removed from all thieves. The bard will still receive it, although perhaps not some of the kits, such as the Blade.