Ardanis Posted January 14, 2014 Author Share Posted January 14, 2014 Spellcasting Paladins have 1/2 max spell level compared to priests So in fact bards would have to be capped at 5th level to maintain the 50% spell level cap of pure class arcane spellcasting. Extra spell levels via HLA - might be done with some ugly hackery, which I'm not exactly endorsing. Unique spells - we can flag those as forbidden to all wizard schools, as I wouldn't mind a generalist wizard getting something unique too. That still leaves sorcerers, however. Lastly, most of the spell levels are already full with SR v4, leaving no room for extra spells (although we have ToBEx to the rescue). Link to comment
Jarno Mikkola Posted January 14, 2014 Share Posted January 14, 2014 SpellcastingPaladins have 1/2 max spell level compared to priests So in fact bards would have to be capped at 5th level to maintain the 50% spell level cap of pure class arcane spellcasting. Well, we can go with this logic... if we just erase the small fact that the paladin is capped at level x spell level... After all we are talking about high level casting... at high levels, not a 10th level paladins. Put a first 6th level spell memorization to level 26 and 7th level memorization to ~10 000 000xp and level 43. Your paladin will probably not get that... but mine might.One question you got to ask yourself, why are you capping things ? mxsplpal.2da: 2DA V1.0 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 10 1 0 0 0 0 0 0 11 2 0 0 0 0 0 0 12 2 1 0 0 0 0 0 13 2 1 0 0 0 0 0 14 2 2 0 0 0 0 0 15 3 2 1 0 0 0 0 16 3 2 1 0 0 0 0 17 3 2 2 1 0 0 0 18 3 3 2 1 0 0 0 19 3 3 2 1 0 0 0 20 3 3 2 2 1 0 0 21 3 3 2 2 1 0 0 22 4 3 3 2 1 0 0 23 4 3 3 2 1 0 0 24 4 3 3 2 1 0 0 25 4 3 3 2 2 0 0 26 4 3 3 2 2 1 0 27 4 3 3 3 2 1 0 28 4 3 3 3 2 1 0 29 4 3 3 3 2 1 0 30 4 3 3 3 2 1 0 31 4 3 3 3 2 2 0 32 4 3 3 3 2 2 0 33 4 3 3 3 2 2 0 34 4 3 3 3 2 2 0 35 4 3 3 3 3 2 0 36 4 3 3 3 3 2 0 37 4 3 3 3 3 2 0 38 4 3 3 3 3 2 0 39 4 3 3 3 3 2 0 40 4 3 3 3 3 2 0 41 4 3 3 3 3 2 0 42 4 3 3 3 3 2 0 43 4 3 3 3 3 3 0 44 4 3 3 3 3 3 1 45 4 3 3 3 3 3 1 46 4 3 3 3 3 3 1 47 4 3 3 3 3 3 1 48 4 3 3 3 3 3 1 49 4 3 3 3 3 3 1 50 4 3 3 3 3 3 1 Link to comment
Ardanis Posted January 14, 2014 Author Share Posted January 14, 2014 One question you got to ask yourself, why are you capping things ?Because spell progression, as well as thaco and saves, should stop at 20th level. After that the character development is defined by HLA pickings. Link to comment
Grammarsalad Posted January 14, 2014 Share Posted January 14, 2014 Spellcasting ... Unique spells - we can flag those as forbidden to all wizard schools, as I wouldn't mind a generalist wizard getting something unique too. That still leaves sorcerers, however. Lastly, most of the spell levels are already full with SR v4, leaving no room for extra spells (although we have ToBEx to the rescue). Me like. I understand from demi that it is just not possible to restrict true bards from certain schools. Please tell me I misunderstand. necromancer and evocation seem inappropriate... Link to comment
Kalindor Posted January 14, 2014 Share Posted January 14, 2014 I suppose you could make Bard-specific items that have a once- or twice-per-day unique spell-like ability. I totally would not enjoy Sorcerers receiving a bunch of new toys. They are ridiculous enough already. Link to comment
Grammarsalad Posted January 15, 2014 Share Posted January 15, 2014 I suppose you could make Bard-specific items that have a once- or twice-per-day unique spell-like ability. I totally would not enjoy Sorcerers receiving a bunch of new toys. They are ridiculous enough already. Yeah, but if (bard only) they are not selectable via hidespl, he couldn't get those anyway. Instruments perhaps? I'm playing a lot of wizardry 8 lately. Throughout the game there are bard only instruments that have specific magical effects. it's pretty cool. Is it possible to have an item change the bard song "while equipped". Some cool possibilities there. Link to comment
yarpen Posted January 15, 2014 Share Posted January 15, 2014 Wouldn't just restricting Bard class from using scrolls of appropriate schools work? Link to comment
Jarno Mikkola Posted January 15, 2014 Share Posted January 15, 2014 Wouldn't just restricting Bard class from using scrolls of appropriate schools work? Well, from spells(.spl file) and scrolls(.itm file)... as if you won't restrict the spell at the .spl file, the bard can learn it from the scroll even though he can't use the scroll itself on others. And the only way to restrict the bard at the spell level is the previously shown opposite school approach at the kit level. One question you got to ask yourself, why are you capping things ?Because spell progression, as well as thaco and saves, should stop at 20th level. After that the character development is defined by HLA pickings. Yeah, let's pretend that that rule is actually is there. Ups, where the home are we ? So the HLA's are gained at level 18, while the other rules stop progressing at level 20(actually 17-21), ouh, and the bottom of the world drops at level 41, as none of the others matter as they become zero/the default ... Not to mention the facts that the spells would be more balanced if most of their effect would be spread around the 40-50 levels progression instead of the first 10-20 level artificial cap made in the original BG1 game, like the fireball is on 7th to 10th. I understand from demi that it is just not possible to restrict true bards from certain schools. Please tell me I misunderstand. necromancer and evocation seem inappropriate... Demi has not done it, but it can be done. Link to comment
Grammarsalad Posted January 15, 2014 Share Posted January 15, 2014 I'm 99.9% sure you can't flag the true bard as, say, an illusionist. At best you can recreate the kits as new kits giving them, say, illusionist usability like the gypsy kit. For what it's worth, I requested an "exclude bard" flag on the bgee feature request board. I also requested a class specific hidspl but I realize now that probably wouldn't be enough Link to comment
Jarno Mikkola Posted January 15, 2014 Share Posted January 15, 2014 I'm 99.9% sure you can't flag the true bard as, say, an illusionist. At best you can recreate the kits as new kits giving them, say, illusionist usability like the gypsy kit. For what it's worth, I requested an "exclude bard" flag on the bgee feature request board. I also requested a class specific hidspl but I realize now that probably wouldn't be enough Well, you don't have to make the bard kit actual the "true bard" ... aka when you make the K_B_x.2da tables(with replace_textually or what ever), you can set your own kits value to the tables first value(0) and no one will notice that you made the change. This was done in the Divine remix mod too, so it works. In the Divine remix, the change was a little too overwhelming as it removed 3/4th's of the spell table, for some of the kits, which obviously was wrong. If we do this, we should exclude one or two, out of the 8, per the kits own specialty. Yes, I mean with the 8 specialties: Abjurer, Conjurer, Diviner, Enchanter, Illusionist, Invoker, Necromancer, Transmuter. Of course the Invoker specialty banns the Conjuration and Enchantment spells both, according to what I read, so being careful needs to be a priority. PS, I am nearly sure that the kit revision already should be using the K_x_x table trick... as it allows the multiclasses to be free of features that Demi doesn't wish them to have. In case you ask, I have learned a lot of the tricks that other kit mods use... Link to comment
Demivrgvs Posted January 15, 2014 Share Posted January 15, 2014 Bard-only items I suppose you could make Bard-specific items that have a once- or twice-per-day unique spell-like ability. I totally would not enjoy Sorcerers receiving a bunch of new toys. They are ridiculous enough already.Yeah, but if (bard only) they are not selectable via hidespl, he couldn't get those anyway.I'm not sure I follow you guys, but I would assume Grammarsalad was suggesting something more IR-related, am I wrong? Instruments perhaps? I'm playing a lot of wizardry 8 lately. Throughout the game there are bard only instruments that have specific magical effects. it's pretty cool.Well, we do have those within BG. I didn't do much about them for IRv4, but I can give a look at them considering I have no news from Mike. Is it possible to have an item change the bard song "while equipped". Some cool possibilities there.The bigger problem would be selecting the item type to effectively equip it, and I'm not 100% sure "while equipped" timing works (it looks like it should though). We could change the current behaviour of instruments to effectively modify the bard song when activated instead of casting a spell-like ability like they do now, but would the end result be worth the effort? Bard's spellcasting Wouldn't just restricting Bard class from using scrolls of appropriate schools work?That would still allow Bards to select prohibited spells at character level up. On a side note, while Bard's spellbook should not contain necromantic spells I think he should still be able to cast those spells via scroll, shouldn't he? I'm 99.9% sure you can't flag the true bard as, say, an illusionist. At best you can recreate the kits as new kits giving them, say, illusionist usability like the gypsy kit. For what it's worth, I requested an "exclude bard" flag on the bgee feature request board. I also requested a class specific hidspl but I realize now that probably wouldn't be enough Well, you don't have to make the bard kit actual the "true bard" ... I'm not sure I'm fine "disabling the True Bard" and adding a kit which works as the True Bard. Last time I heard a mod doing that it was Refinements (to implement the Use Scroll HLA for thieves instead of vanilla's UAI), and I'm pretty sure it had some sort of issue though I don't remember which one right now. I need to discuss this whole matter a little bit with Arda before deciding if it's worth trying out or not. Paladins have 1/2 max spell level compared to priestsSo in fact bards would have to be capped at 5th level to maintain the 50% spell level cap of pure class arcane spellcasting. Well, priests have 7th level spells, paladins and rangers get half as much rounded up, aka 4th level spells. Following the above logic bards should get 6th level spells as they already do. Mind you, D&D Next is opting to cap Bards at 5th level spells in its last pre-release playtesting pack. And speaking of "caps", Jarno don't waste your time talking about level 40+ things, uncapped thac0 tables, Paladins getting 7th level spells, Bards getting Time Stop, etc. I'm fine to keep compatibility with that stuff, but you do know I consider that stuff completely broken. I am nearly sure that the kit revision already should be using the K_x_x table trick... as it allows the multiclasses to be free of features that Demi doesn't wish them to have.Actually I'm fine with how multiclasses work right now. My only plan for them is to give them a custom HLA table with unique abilities. Link to comment
Grammarsalad Posted January 15, 2014 Share Posted January 15, 2014 That is an interesting trick jarno. I'm inclined to defer to demi's expertise, though (not that I won't mess with it a bit myself...) Demi: the instrument stuff is probably more ir related. I think it would add an interesting flavor but I'm not married to.it. Link to comment
Ardanis Posted January 15, 2014 Author Share Posted January 15, 2014 Of course the Invoker specialty banns the Conjuration and Enchantment spells both, according to what I read, You shouldn't rely on game-related information found on non-modding sites. Well, priests have 7th level spells, paladins and rangers get half as much rounded up, aka 4th level spells. Following the above logic bards should get 6th level spells as they already do. Mind you, D&D Next is opting to cap Bards at 5th level spells in its last pre-release playtesting pack. Actually, 9/2 = 5 rounded up Link to comment
leania Posted January 15, 2014 Share Posted January 15, 2014 Actually, 9/2 = 5 rounded up Well, unlike Paladins/Rangers, Bards are based on Rogue, which have worse THAC0/APR/HP with no advantages in aspects of combat. Bards actually must NOT be compared to Paladins/Rangers imo. The comparisons between Paladins and Bards would be as following: ADVANTAGE: -Pick pockets -Arcane spell casting -Bards song -Higher Lore -can use wands DISADVANTAGE: -Armor/Weapon restrictions -Worse THAC0, APR, and HP -No Aura -Can not cast divine spells -Can not use turn undead -etc Look... As far as I know, Bards already have much more disadvantages than advantages while comparing with Paladins. I think Bards song is not so much effective as Paladin's Aura unless KR put Lingering Song ability at low level because Bards should keep the song with preventing any other actions. Not only enhanced Bards songs but also "something more" would be needed for KR Bards if KR intends to limit Bards spell casting ability as Arda and Demi mentioned. By the way, I've felt that bards should use fighter animation instead of thief animation. The hooded animation for Bards looks annoying for me... Link to comment
Jarno Mikkola Posted January 15, 2014 Share Posted January 15, 2014 Actually, 9/2 = 5 rounded up Erhm ... if we make the assumption that in regards to possible max spell casting level, the Bard is the same thing to a Mage as a Paladin is to a Cleric: B/M=P/C => B = P/C * M -> 4 / 7 * 9 = 5.14285... = 6 rounded up. The numbers coming, 4 is the number of the paladin's highest spell, 7 being the clerics spell level and 9 being the mages spell level I'm 99.9% sure you can't flag the true bard as, say, an illusionist. At best you can recreate the kits as new kits giving them, say, illusionist usability like the gypsy kit. For what it's worth, I requested an "exclude bard" flag on the bgee feature request board. I also requested a class specific hidspl but I realize now that probably wouldn't be enough Well, you don't have to make the bard kit actual the "true bard" ... I'm not sure I'm fine "disabling the True Bard" and adding a kit which works as the True Bard. Last time I heard a mod doing that it was Refinements (to implement the Use Scroll HLA for thieves instead of vanilla's UAI), and I'm pretty sure it had some sort of issue though I don't remember which one right now. I need to discuss this whole matter a little bit with Arda before deciding if it's worth trying out or not. Well, the Refinements has a bunch of compatibility issues due to the ALWAYS block it has set for itself... and the fact that well, over insisting that no other ways to go around the factor, like the UAI... if we make the bard kit itself have a sort of restriction, we can make the other kits not take it into a necessary count. So any mod added kit will work as if the change is not made. After all that would be a mod added kit. Link to comment
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