Kit Revisions Beta 20

[kreso]

Demi, I'm about to start a No-reload game with KR; but I'd like to hear your opinion on following matters:

(I wanted to wait for new SR/IR but.... )

 

Barbarian - basically, I'd rework Cleave. Current implementation is fine, however it doesn't look nice in game. When Cleave effect triggers, he gains +1 apr for 1 round, but even if he kills one more creature he doesn't cleave again....it looks as if he is "paused". My rework would be:

- at level 3, he gains Cleave. After he kills an oponnent, he gains 1 apr, but suffers a -4 damage and -4 THAC0 penatly

- at level 6, he gains +1 apr, +2 movement, and suffers -2 THAC0/damage. I'd remove THAC0 bonus from Leap attack.

- level 9, +1 apr (I don't like +2 apr when he cleaves), +2 MS, no THAC0/damage penalties

 

These effects would stack, so even without "protection from spell" opcode I envision it would be balanced (he wouldn't cleave endlessly but would eventually miss).

In additon, I'd make his Rage a Tireless Rage at level 20. I wouldn't do the same for Berserker, but Barbarian's Rage does loose quite a bit of it's edge in the late game. It's also very iconic.

 

Cavalier - not much here, apart Shield Other (and fixing Retaliation so it works when attack is attempted, not when it succeeds). As I noted previously, the Sanctuary effect both affects enemies and looks outright awful, not to mention that it has 0 effect against Demons/Liches.

Reworked - a single-target spell (personaly, I'd give him LoH back with this effect, and would take Weapon Mastery away from him) which grants an ally following traits:

- non-targetable by enemies (full protection, not pseudo-invisibility)

- apr set to 0

- spellcasting disabled

- Cavalier cannot turn invisible, nor move for the duration (1 round)

[Demivrgvs]

Demi, I'm about to start a No-reload game with KR; but I'd like to hear your opinion on following matters:

(I wanted to wait for new SR/IR but.... )

After an entire month without a f*****g minute of spare time, tomorrow I'll finally have at least half a day to mod. I need to finish packaging SR first (I should be able to do it in the morning if there is no hitch) but the new KR beta was pretty much ready ages ago and I might be able to do something about it within the afternoon.

 

Barbarian

Barbarian - basically, I'd rework Cleave. Current implementation is fine, however it doesn't look nice in game. When Cleave effect triggers, he gains +1 apr for 1 round, but even if he kills one more creature he doesn't cleave again....it looks as if he is "paused". My rework would be:

- at level 3, he gains Cleave. After he kills an oponnent, he gains 1 apr, but suffers a -4 damage and -4 THAC0 penatly

- at level 6, he gains +1 apr, +2 movement, and suffers -2 THAC0/damage. I'd remove THAC0 bonus from Leap attack.

- level 9, +1 apr (I don't like +2 apr when he cleaves), +2 MS, no THAC0/damage penalties

 

These effects would stack, so even without "protection from spell" opcode I envision it would be balanced (he wouldn't cleave endlessly but would eventually miss).

I'm not sure I understand your whole suggested revision (e.g. what's stacking and what isn't stacking; do those effects still last 1 round?) and the whole "if he kills one more creature he doesn't cleave again....it looks as if he is paused". Previously Cleave improved to have no such cap as per PnP Great Cleave, but you guys seemed against it.

 

In additon, I'd make his Rage a Tireless Rage at level 20. I wouldn't do the same for Berserker, but Barbarian's Rage does loose quite a bit of it's edge in the late game. It's also very iconic.

You know I'm really torn on this. On one hand it's tempting, otoh I really fear it would make the gameplay cheaper because Barbarian's Rage have pretty much no drawbacks and you would end up with an enraged barbarian all the time for each encounter.

 

Cavalier

Cavalier - not much here, apart Shield Other (and fixing Retaliation so it works when attack is attempted, not when it succeeds). As I noted previously, the Sanctuary effect both affects enemies and looks outright awful, not to mention that it has 0 effect against Demons/Liches.

Reworked - a single-target spell (personaly, I'd give him LoH back with this effect, and would take Weapon Mastery away from him) which grants an ally following traits:

- non-targetable by enemies (full protection, not pseudo-invisibility)

- apr set to 0

- spellcasting disabled

- Cavalier cannot turn invisible, nor move for the duration (1 round)

I'll think about it. Edited February 28, 2014 by Demivrgvs

[kreso]

Barbarian

Here's what I'd do for DVCLEAVE.spl (all effects have 6 seconds duration, just like now)

 

level 1 - +1 apr

- base THAC0 bonus -4

- attack damage bonus -4

 

level 6 - +1 apr

- base THAC0 -2

- attack damage -2

- movement speed +2

 

level 9 - +1 apr

- movement +2

 

All these would stack. What happens in game is that he dispatches one or two lesser foes easilly, but unlike the official beta he stops when he misses (and he will miss eventually) which is imo better than "full stop" even if he kills something (it is a cleave-through, no?) Later he has no penalties, but BG2 balances Cleave feat easilly due to much higher HP pools of enemies.

2 extra apr per cleave I don't really like for some reason....

I was against stacking Cleave w/o drawbacks, but with this tweak it's quite balanced (he usually manages to kill 2 or 3 oponnents before he looses the bonus) and imo it makes sense that each consecutive attack is weaker (it looses power as it slashes through armor/bone etc.).

 

Tireless Rage

I know you're against it, but given that almost any kit gets something really nice (Monks Slow time, Deathless Frenzy etc.) I think it's only fitting that Barbarians get this. He can only Rage for 5 times/day anyhow, not 10 like vanilla game.

[Jarno Mikkola]

2 extra apr per cleave I don't really like for some reason....

Then why are you insisting on it ? See if we imp haste the character the +1 becomes +2, now if we only give it +1/2 apr, it will only ever be one... k, the barbarian is not going to get the grand mastery, correct ? As that is given to the fighter instead of the multiply of rage +1 apr for the butcher of the goblinville... is that the balance you think or ? I still think it needs a -1 thac0 anyways per stack...

 

The -4 damage might be a little too much... ... see equip a two handed sword with a low strength .... and a dagger and get a few stacks with the sword... and you might soonish be hitting 240-255 damage per hit on the dagger.

The negative STR damage won't alone put the damage there, but any other effect can easily as they are applied by adding a counter count (yes, the -1 is actually +255, as the number that goes over the 256 count line is the actual damage... ). (that of course is then also multiplied by the possible backstab multiplier and then the str bonus is applied as long as the damage amount is between 1 and 255).

Edited February 28, 2014 by Jarno Mikkola

[kreso]

Barbarian currently get 2 extra apr per cleave at level 9 - my suggestion is to remove 2 extra apr and add only one for all levels.

As per your worries about wrap-around, it just doesn't happen. I used opcodes 54 and 73, same as per Whirlwind attack, and there are no +256 damage numbers. What you're saying is that a character with low strenght (i.e. 12) using 1d4 plain dagger and activating whirlwind which gives the same negative values; say a swashbuckler, can easilly deal 200+ damage?

Cause if you are, you're wrong. It correctly has a minimum value of 1. There's no "-1".

Even better, one can make Whirlwind give a negative value of -10, just like I suspected.

It still doesn't wrap around.

Edited February 28, 2014 by kreso

[Cornelius]

Hello all, can we expect another update or this mod is dead ?

[Demivrgvs]

Hello all, can we expect another update or this mod is dead ?

I'll spare you the long story, let's just say I'm secretly doing a lot of things for all 3 Revisions mods. KR is the last one on the priority list, but it's not dead at all. I gave up giving ETAs, but I can assure you BIG things are right around the corner for all three mods.

[Kalindor]

Exciting. Let me know if you want any help testing anything.

[Dakk]

I love secret doings!

[kreso]

Here's the bugs:

Cavalier

Shield other ability covers enemies in Sanctuary. As so far, I was unable to fix this, locally changed to a "+4 AC bonus to allies while they stand near the Cavalier". I think this works.

Divine Retaliation should trigger "each round when attacked" on target "nearest enemy"; it's description states that it lasts 1 turn but in game lasts 2 turns, Fireshield animation doesn't display (0 probability).

Archer - Called Shot displays "Frenzy" when used and gained.

Berserker - Rage ability increased to 36/48/60 seconds, level 19 doesn't protect against anything (Protection from spell must go last after all other effects, now it prevents them)

- some other tweaks -

Barbarian - Cleave reworked so that it looks as a "real" cleave-through - bonus attack triggers instantly, there's no limit to number of attacks he can gain from cleaving, but each consecutive succesfull cleave attack applies penalties)

level 3 - +1 APR, -4 THAC0, -4 damage, Increase attack speed factor by 10 - all lasting 3 seconds

level 6 - +1 APR, -2 THAC0 and damage, Increase attacks speed factor by 10, +4 Movement speed, 3 seconds duration

level 9 - +1 APR, Increase attack speed factor by 10, + 4 MS, 3 seconds (no more penalties for cleaving)

In game, this works (and looks!) great - nothing imbalanced early on, level 6 is a big difference, and level 9 adds more mobility to the kit, which I find very fitting. In addition, it makes two-handed swords a perfect choice for a barbarian.

Leap Attack could also be re-implemented, I'm not sure how, but what one needs is "Protection from spell - Leap attack" for some time otherwise trigger used returns true constantly which gives enormus bonuses (I think this is what happened with 1st implementation - enemy in range 10', but trigger returned true constantly and for each enemy in range).

I also removed Offensive Stance from them (unusable in BG1, apart from missile weapons, due to limited specialization and +2 damage isn't worth the THAC0 penalty).

Paladin, UH and Cavalier - I haven't really played UH any, but both Cav and True class could benefit much if they gained a larege Attack speed factor bonus when using Challenge/Smite Evil (or a longer duration for melee hit effects, 2 rounds, even 9 seconds would be enough) - due to IR penalties to speed factor it's quite common that the ability expires before the attack animation is done, making these abilities only useful if one is using a dagger or is dressed in leather armor (I usually use slow, heavy weapons like Bastard swords for paladins).

Inquisitor - this is probably for SR forum, but I made his Lay on Hands correctly cure Charm effects (ditto Break Enchantement) - given that most of the disabling spells are "curable" by various opcodes i.e. Cure Stun, Remove Paralysis, Cure Blindness etc. I removed "disabling" secondary type from all spells apart Enchantements like Charm, Domination, Chaos, Sleep, Malison etc. and added a "Remove spell type protections-disabling" effect to Inquisitor's LOH ability - works like a charm I must say, even w/o a custom secondary type. This makes me very happy since no longer must everyone in the party be permanently protected from Charm spells.

Kensai - I remember Mike once said that he's worried about kits becoming overly complicated, and I think this is what happened to this kit the most.

Suggestion - all of Ki Pool is mergerd into a single Ki Strike ability.

level 1 - +4 THAC0, AC and MS for 1 round

level 5 - all level 1 bonuses + max damage each hit

level 10 - gains immunity to energy attacks while using Ki strike

level 20 - gains superb AC protection (I removed Protection from weapons here, and implemented a big (very big) AC bonus of 30 + 20 to each AC modifier - he can be hit only by criticals or things such as ToB dragons, Abazigal etc.)

I also re-implemented Extended Ki - Ki strike ability lasts 9 seconds from level 10, 12 seconds from level 19.

This tweak (unlike Ki pool abilities, since the AI uses only Ki strike) makes enemy kensais, which ToB is filled with, apsolutely lethal in combat, as they should be - not only do they strike hard, they get in your face almost instantly, are impossible to hit apart when using Critical Strike HLA, and are immune Dragon's Breath spell.

Things I'm not sure of - Monks (again, too complicated imo) and berserkers.

[leania]

 

Here's the bugs:

Cavalier

Shield other ability covers enemies in Sanctuary. As so far, I was unable to fix this, locally changed to a "+4 AC bonus to allies while they stand near the Cavalier". I think this works.

Divine Retaliation should trigger "each round when attacked" on target "nearest enemy"; it's description states that it lasts 1 turn but in game lasts 2 turns, Fireshield animation doesn't display (0 probability).

Archer - Called Shot displays "Frenzy" when used and gained.

Berserker - Rage ability increased to 36/48/60 seconds, level 19 doesn't protect against anything (Protection from spell must go last after all other effects, now it prevents them)

...

 

Are you sure that these bugs came from KR? I think these are caused by BG:EE/BG2:EE. You can see the bug already has been reported at http://forum.baldursgate.com/discussion/15380/bg-ee-mods-and-modding-tutorials-quick-links/p1, which says "Right now ALL mods that add kits to the game are incompatible with version 1.2."

 

And I also remember that my KR installation on BG:EE did not work correclty as yours, e.g., barbarian lost some of his abilities revised by KR, I don't remember what exact skills did though.

 

I has been waiting for the new patch of BG:EE and BG2:EE while expecting the bug will be fixed, but I think the critical bug still is there, because Dee doesn't reply my question at forum. I'm really disappointed in those enhanced editions now. I have reached the limits of my patience... How could such annoying bug still exist? Anyway, I'm seriously considering going back to original BG series for playing BG game with IR/SR/KR.

Edited June 25, 2014 by leania

[kreso]

@ Leania

 

Yeah, I'm sure these are KR bugs. I gave up on EE a long time ago, it's nonsensical what they did to BG there, I only play BGTrilogy. KR works on EEs since it doesn't add new kits, it revisies the existing ones. You can have some portrait icons bugs on EE1 (i.e. Smite icon doesn't exist in EE1, but KR uses it) but other than that it works.

[Cahir]

@Leania seems that they did fix this issue, but it is put under Modder Features, not Bug Fixes in the patch log.

 

Anyway, I'll definitely try KR at some point, but it will probably happen when Demi make wizard/sorcerer classes revisions (if he plan to do that of course). I might try rogue or bard kits too, but I never liked to play warrior classes, never knew why.

 

Definitely waiting for full releases of IR and SR, though.

[Demivrgvs]

Here's the bugs...

Thanks man.

 

Barbarian

Using 'speed factor bonus' for Cleave sounds cool. I thought it would have been wonky together with IR armors giving speed penalties, but it sounds like you used the latter too without problems. I remember multiple effects not correctly stacking, have I to assume either the latest or the highest speed bonus/penalty takes precedence?

 

Regarding OS and Leap Attack, what about merging them into a sort of Charge feat? Something like a usable at will "stance" which lasts a single round, granting thaco (dmg too?) and movement rate bonuses in exchange for lowered AC (to prevent its spam in melee). Is it worth trying?

 

Berserker

I think we are not far away from its final state. It's a real shame we had to give up the "out of control" aspect, but it can be great anyway. The only real problem is that without that feature it's hard to make him as devastating as it should while keeping him balanced.

 

Kensai & Monk

I don't think the Kensai kit is overcomplicated. I like how we expanded upon the Ki concept offering a bit more options without making it as "complicated" as the Monk. Otoh, I think we may remove the Defensive Stance from this class.

 

The Monk is indeed waay more "complicated", but I really really like what we did for it and I think this class deserves to keep a wider range of options compared to other warriors.

 

Inquisitor

Believe it or not, I do thought about using similar tricks and I didn't only because I was expecting to add custom sec type soon. Nice job tweaking it for yourself though.

 

Mages

I'll definitely try KR at some point, but it will probably happen when Demi make wizard/sorcerer classes revisions (if he plan to do that of course). I might try rogue or bard kits too, but I never liked to play warrior classes, never knew why.

Yep, I've already worked a bit on spellcasters for my internal build and plan to include them too in future releases.

[kreso]

Barbarian

Using 'speed factor bonus' for Cleave sounds cool. I thought it would have been wonky together with IR armors giving speed penalties, but it sounds like you used the latter too without problems. I remember multiple effects not correctly stacking, have I to assume either the latest or the highest speed bonus/penalty takes precedence?

 

Regarding OS and Leap Attack, what about merging them into a sort of Charge feat? Something like a usable at will "stance" which lasts a single round, granting thaco (dmg too?) and movement rate bonuses in exchange for lowered AC (to prevent its spam in melee). Is it worth trying?

Apperantly the biggest attack speed bonus active is used, if bonus is set to 10 (I think this is max weapon speed) the attack triggers instantly. Low duration (I used 3 seconds) ensures that he only cleaves if a target is close by.

As for OS/Leap, I once played barby similar to what you suggest, check the altered description bit down the post (unfortunately, SCS proved a bit buggy when adding +2 mage levels to enemies so I had to give up on that run).

I used a sort of a "cooldown" for "Charge" (1 turn) but was thinking that it could be upgraded at 10th/19th level to have a shorter trigger period.

Worked out nice, seeing a barby spring to battle is cool.

What I don't like about "usable" feats is

a) AI won't use them

b) they prevent any other action during that round beside fighting, making them fairly difficult and inconvinient to use

 

Another thing I implemented is Tireless Rage, at level 20. I know you don't like it, but I didn't go overboard with it - I created a custom spell, similar to "Rage fatigue" spell which is cast at the end of level 20 Barbarian Rage instead of the current one. The spell lasts for 30 seconds, and it has no other effects than "Immunity to spell - Barbarian Rage" and "Display portrait Icon - fatigued".

In effect, barby can't be "permanently raged", he still has a cooldown, but no longer suffers ill effects of fatigue (AC/MS reduction etc.)

 

Berserker

He's nice, but some "auto-frenzy" feature would be imo more fitting than at will usable OS. From my various tweaks, I'd avoid

a) penalizing his AC too much

b) damage bonuses above the ones he's getting now (max +8 stance - or frenzy; and +4 Rage is enough)

c) <50% trigger for regen, since it's too slow to cast (if you want to make this a battle regeneration, imo it's much better to change the trigger into "each round when attacked", this way it only works when it actually shoud (combat, not walking around in circles).

d) "when helpless" trigger could also be re-implemented, but with a big cooldown (example - "once per day, if a berserker gets disabled, he can use his inner strenght to break free of ill effects blah blah....")

 

Kensai

Again, for AI consistency I'd really keep it very simple - a single Ki ability. The thing is, in BG1 especially, it doesn't matter that much if you are gonna use Ki Strike, Ki Dodge or Ki Step - they all let you usually kill enemies faster than they can respond.

Ki dodge at level 19 makes enemies completely disregard him, and simply focus on other targets, while a large AC bonus actually makes him "do his job".

The way I tweaked him makes kensai a very powerful kit, but I'd rather have him powerful as a single kit who kept away from dualclassing for 90% of the game than as a dualed level 13 kensai.

I addition, he'd be sightly more "user-friendly". It takes quite a bit of metagaming knowledge to know when you want to use each of his Ki abilities in BG2.

 

Monk

I kind of agree, monk was "complicated" in vanilla as well.