Sword Coast Stratagems v34 (edit: 34.3) now available

[Guest Jarin]

Heya, I had a small request: Could the "Faster Bears" component also apply to bears that have been charmed? Right now they can't keep up with the party if charmed using charm animal, and notably can't keep up with enemies that run away from them.

[DavidW]

I'll look into it.

[polytope]

Something I've noticed about AI controlled berserkers, they can be triggered to use their rage prematurely, and it becomes a disadvantage for them after 1 turn when the winded period kicks in. It's possible to benefit from this inadvertently and not just through deliberate kiting cheese (which you've said you don't want to block).

I'd support enemy berserkers getting an indefinite duration form of the rage, so that it will apply for the length of melee combat (as is most usually the case for a PC berserker). I wouldn't view this as a cheat but more similar to AI controlled thieves not needing to stand "behind" their target for a backstab.

To balance things you could strip enemy berserkers of their healing potions, it's implausible that they would pause to drink them in the heat of battle.

Edited August 4, 2022 by polytope

[DavidW]

I’ll consider, but I’m very reluctant - for obvious playing-fair reasons. (I don’t think it’s really analogous to backstab, which is an extreme case reflecting the fact that facing is impossible to manage in the IE scripting system).

[Luke]

1 hour ago, DavidW said:

(... is impossible to manage in the IE scripting system).

Technically speaking, there's the Backstab action, though it appears to be broken...

Maybe @Bubb could provide us with more info about how it's supposed to work...?

[Bubb]

8 hours ago, Luke said:

Maybe @Bubb could provide us with more info about how it's supposed to work...?

There's barely any code behind it. It updates the creature's target with the supplied object, (for the purposes of rendering the reticle), but does nothing else and never self-terminates.

[polytope]

On 8/4/2022 at 2:03 PM, DavidW said:

I’ll consider, but I’m very reluctant - for obvious playing-fair reasons. (I don’t think it’s really analogous to backstab, which is an extreme case reflecting the fact that facing is impossible to manage in the IE scripting system).

If you'll excuse me geeking out about this, berserkers were originally an enemy (usually) encounter in the earliest editions of D&D, described as warbands eschewing armor but being able to strike twice in a round, or once with a +2 to hit. It wasn't until splatbooks introduced various berserker kits for players that they felt the need to tack on a refractory period as a disadvantage. It was pretty clearly the intent that the berserkers a party might encounter were supposed to be berserk for the duration of the melee and there's just no way a human referee would allow something like "running away from the furious berserkers so that they'll be worn out and operating at a to-hit/damage/AC by the time they catch up with us" (sort of like the gladiator scene in the Life of Brian).

[Salk]

I don't think it'd be fair to remove the winding for enemy Berserkers, although it would be obviously great if the timing for when their rage is activated during the battle could be further perfected.

I am not particularly bothered by their drinking a potion or stopping the attack to do anything else. Player-controlled berserkers can do that, after all.

Edited August 9, 2022 by Salk

[polytope]

An enemy berserker will not last more than 10 rounds of combat if the PC(s) are actually fighting him, so he gets no really unfair advantage. The possibility of waiting out his rage gives the player an unfair advantage, though, it's a specific edge case as being berserk doesn't grant immunity to either physical or magical damage as many wizard (and - with the more recent SCS versions - cleric, buffs do).

Another alternative, rather than a duration, 5% chance of rage expiry and debuff with every hit the berserker scores in melee, thus an average of 14 strikes till it vanishes (I don't think enemy fighters have a chance to hit you 14 times either, usually).

3 hours ago, Salk said:

I am not particularly bothered by their drinking a potion or stopping the attack to do anything else. Player-controlled berserkers can do that, after all.

Well berserkers dual classed to cleric, duid or mage can even cast spells while enraged, but I'm pretty sure that's not how the conceptual berserker should be...

[Nurn]

Kinda depends if you play with Double Damage enabled on Insane Difficulty or not. With X2 Damage and their high Thaco (even more boosted with Berserk) sometimes you have to kite even with tanky Characters. Otherwise you meld. Often times Berserkers come in groups which could exceed the 10 rounds till you defeat them and they are dead.

Edited August 9, 2022 by Nurn

[DavidW]

This is outside SCS’s design goals: for better or worse, a very systematic design principle of the mod is that enemies, especially humanoid, class-having enemies, use the same abilities as the player. I violate that only in extremis and I don’t think this is serious enough to count.

[Bartimaeus]

On 8/3/2022 at 10:05 PM, polytope said:

It's possible to benefit from this inadvertently and not just through deliberate kiting cheese (which you've said you don't want to block).

What situation would this be, anyways? Preventing obvious exploitative behavior is nice when it doesn't conflict with or require design changes, but if it does, then it's usually not worth the trouble: let players who prefer exploiting play how they like without impacting anyone else.

[subtledoctor]

4 hours ago, DavidW said:

This is outside SCS’s design goals: for better or worse, a very systematic design principle of the mod is that enemies, especially humanoid, class-having enemies, use the same abilities as the player. I violate that only in extremis and I don’t think this is serious enough to count.

I will say, part of the point here is to have - or simulate! - enemies use abilities intelligently. This one, with effects that actually disadvantage the user, is pretty unique. Maybe, assuming it is very quick to cast, it could be scripted to kick in only when the berserker is in melee range of a PC? That would be much better than starting it early in a standard pre-buff routine. 

(Full disclosure, I have no idea how it actually works right now, maybe this suggestion is moot.)

[polytope]

10 hours ago, Bartimaeus said:

What situation would this be, anyways? Preventing obvious exploitative behavior is nice when it doesn't conflict with or require design changes, but if it does, then it's usually not worth the trouble: let players who prefer exploiting play how they like without impacting anyone else.

DavidW has confirmed that he won't be changing it, so I guess further posts on this subject are pointless under an SCS release thread unless someone wants to recode berserker abilities as a kit mod.

The situation I actually had in mind; berserker glimpses a PC at the bottom of stairs (which are blocked by other enemies) enrages, of course, but since he has no clear path wanders away (enemies often think they can circle round an intervening creature, even though they can't... so do PCs and with a party size beyond 4 it becomes really annoying). By the time the party dealt with the stair blocking enemies and caught up with him he was fighting with a winded penalty, I mean, it felt silly.

[DavidW]

Berserkers plausibly should be raging only when they get to melee. (Trade off, since they lose the immunities).