IR V2 release

[DrAzTiK]

Maybe yours don't, but to my Kensai, it is life or death. Who hits first, wins.

Of course you are right... What about ask to Demivrgvs to make an special armor -11AC usable only by kensai ? (and kensai/mage of course)

 

I vote for 4~5 thaco penalty and 3~5 damage bonus

ty

[Icendoan]

No. No armour for a Kensai. Ever!

 

Icen

[Demivrgvs]

It seems there's not a general consensus regarding the value of a THAC0 bonus...some of you consider it very important (Jarno, Icen, DrAzTik) others think fighters can take a -4 penalty without noticing (Ardanis), others stay in the middle of those opposite positions (Salk, Shaitan). Let's try to analize it a little:

 

BG1 Fighters have THAC0 between 20 and 10, and fight enemies with AC between 10 and 0

 

SoA Fighters have THAC0 between 10 and -5, and fight enemies with AC between 5 and -5

 

ToB Fighters have THAC0 between -5 and -15, and fight enemies with AC between 0 and -10

 

I'd say that THAC0 is very important for the very first levels, but than the fighter class shouldn't have problem hitting opponents in SoA and especially in ToB. Correct me if I'm using wrong values, else I my position is very near Ardanis' one, though I wouldn't use a penalty higher than -2 to avoid making the gauntlets "unappealing".

 

About Gauntlets of Weapon Expertise :

-1thac0 penalize multiclass imo.

- don't you think only +2 damage should be ok ?

I really don't consider penalizing multiclasses as a threat, actually both multi and dual classes are generally much more effective characters than pure classes, especially in BG where they can reach incredibly high levels. Regarding the damage, yes +2 is a solid bonus, but I don't think +3 is too much. Anyway I think these gauntlets shouldn't be available to thieves in any way as they would be too effective when backstabbing imo.

 

Don't you think there is enough way to increase CA... I know it's difficult to have -24Ca with Anomen but please....

As I said you do have a point, though I'm not really sure reaching -24 AC is so easy: you have to put all the best AC boosting items on the same character, and then you would end up with an uber AC but with very few other special abilities. Furthermore ToB opponents generally have very good THAC0, and I suppose any BG veteran would agree that in vanilla ToB AC was completely useless because of this. You have to reach an AC better than -10 to make a character effectively start to dodge attacks, and even an AC -15 allows to dodge only 50% of incoming attacks against powerful creatures.

If anyone can give me ToB feedback with IR to test this I'll be glad to see if anything as to be done about it.

[DrAzTiK]

For Anomen it was a lot of ironic of course

-4 or - 5 is surely too much... I was just happy to find someone pretty severe. Everybody is so kind here... And I consider thac0 important only for multiclass, not for pure fighters

 

dual classes are generally much more effective characters than pure classes

Only on high levels... but not everybody install def jam of course... Even if it's another debate my opinion is that multiclasses fighters got in general a notable less thac0 at low and midle level. (no grand mastery and less warrior levels : sorry but i feel difference)

 

But after all, pure fighters may be deserve to be a little privilegied for this item.

 

I think these gauntlets shouldn't be available to thieves

of course lol

[Ardanis]

And I consider thac0 important only for multiclass, not for pure fighters

Hm, I played as multi FM for a couple of times and had decent Thac0 all the way, albeit poor AC. And the importance of Thac0 is insignificant in SoA, not to mention ToB where kensai is the best choice as they offer more damage than other classes (who cares about bad AC when it doesn't matter anyway for both sides; at least kensai hits harder).

 

To put it the other way, tank characters tend not to bother with dealing damage and they may as well choose to equip the Parry over the Power Attack. And for butcherers Thac0 is never a problem.

[DrAzTiK]

And the importance of Thac0 is insignificant in SoA

Maybe coz ennemy are weak and have poor CA but it's another problem.

 

A multiclassed should have 4 or 5 less levels in comparaison with a pure fighter in SOA and no grand mastery ===> difference is 7,8 thac0 minimum in comparaison to a pure fighter.

Even in my BG1 party, thanks to grand mastery , khalid has a notable better thac0 than jaheira. (and only one more level of fighter ).

 

ps : i must admit that i have fixed grand mastery with BG2 tweak coz vanilla'grand mastery is bugged. But even with a non fixed grand mastery, (who still give bonus), i think my reasoning is ok...

 

Finally, I like thac0 penality for Gauntlets of Weapon Expertise : it could be nice to reward fighter with a good thac0. So maybe -2thac0 and +3 damages ?

 

But an item who increase thac0 for melee weapons should be nice for :

-all sort of fighters not cheated with 20 STR minimum. Fighters with less than 17 STR are in existence...

-multiclass fighters.

- triclassed. F/M/T

-pure priest/druid (supposed to be a worth fighter...)

- some thief with low thac0

etc.. Personnaly, i have always in my games a fighting man with a litlle too weak thac0 for melee....don't you ?

 

And what about make Gauntlets of weapon skill like Gauntlets of Weapon Expertise : bonus for thac0 and penality for damages ?==> +2thac0 -1 damages

[Jarno Mikkola]

ToB Fighters have THAC0 between -5 and -15

, How in the unheaven did you come to that? The fighter has base THACO of 0 at level 20 and it stays there, on the levels of 20-40(50). So if the fighter is "dexterity based"(str is 9 to 16), his THACO stays on the -3(from weapon proficiency). So for trying to hit the enemies with AC of -25 without the critical hits, you need a clerics, bards etc. help to support.

 

See the problem? And I know that some enemies in ToB have AC of -13, cause the dragons in SoA have that...

[Salk]

Well, having the THAC0 penalty to -2 (main hand) will make these gauntles already unappealing for a BGT player (remember that those gauntlets are found in BG1 first). Not to mention a penalty higher than that (like Ardanis suggested).

 

They would become little more than almost trash for a BGT multiclass fighter. I would find them in BG1 and never use them.

 

This item would be then decent only at high level.

 

Let's not forget that the Gauntlets of Weapon Expertise should be better than the Gauntlets of Weapon Skill. The first would give a nice AC 2 bonus (it makes sense as the weapon would be used to parry) while the latter would give a damage bonus with a too high penalty to THAC0 (dual wielders would never use them untill they reach a high enough level).

 

So we can do like this: we keep the -1 to THAC0 (-2 to offhand) but we lower the damage from +3 to +2 as good compromise. (I have edited my table)

 

Raising the damage to make them appealing despite a bad THAC0 penalty is not a solution: they would become too powerful in SoA/ToB.

[Salk]

By the way,

 

small addition: I would change the name from Gauntlets of Weapon Skill to Gauntlets of Parrying.

[Demivrgvs]

Hm, I played as multi FM for a couple of times and had decent Thac0 all the way, albeit poor AC. And the importance of Thac0 is insignificant in SoA, not to mention ToB where kensai is the best choice as they offer more damage than other classes (who cares about bad AC when it doesn't matter anyway for both sides; at least kensai hits harder).

 

To put it the other way, tank characters tend not to bother with dealing damage and they may as well choose to equip the Parry over the Power Attack. And for butcherers Thac0 is never a problem.

Then you do agree with me that vanilla's AC wasn't really enough to make any difference, right? What I've tried to do is to allow a player to build a "Shield Bearer" type of warrior without feeling to have chosen a poor option, and in vanilla you couldn't reach a decent AC to justify a character built on defense imo.

 

ToB Fighters have THAC0 between -5 and -15

, How in the unheaven did you come to that? The fighter has base THACO of 0 at level 20 and it stays there, on the levels of 20-40(50). So if the fighter is "dexterity based"(str is 9 to 16), his THACO stays on the -3. So for trying to hit the enemies with AC of -5 without the critical hits, you need a cleric to support.

 

See the problem? And I know that some enemies in ToB have AC of -13, cause the dragons in SoA have that...

A fighter with THAC0 -3 needs assistance to hit a AC -5? Are you kidding me? He would hit 90% of times! Not to mention that even without strength bonus (which 99% of fighters have) a fighter in ToB has base THAC0 0, +2 from mastery, +3/+4 from weapon, thus even the weakest and worst built fighter ever created should have THAC0 -5/-6!! Such character hits an AC -10 75% of times, and an AC -15 50% of times! AC better than -10 is extremely rare even in ToB.

 

Last but not least...does anyone remember the Gauntlets of Ogre Power? They could grant +3 THAC0, +6 damage to a character with STR 9 in vanilla!!! Now we are afraid about giving fighters -1 thac0 and +3 damage, but even the current "nerfed" Gauntlets of Ogre Power will be much more appealing for any fighter with STR >15! This may even lead to the conclusion that Gauntlets of Ogre Power are still too powerful...but than any item with a +2 to STR would be considered too powerful!

 

Well, having the THAC0 penalty to -2 (main hand) will make these gauntles already unappealing for a BGT player (remember that those gauntlets are found in BG1 first). Not to mention a penalty higher than that (like Ardanis suggested).

 

They would become little more than almost trash for a BGT multiclass fighter. I would find them in BG1 and never use them.

 

This item would be then decent only at high level.

 

Let's not forget that the Gauntlets of Weapon Expertise should be better than the Gauntlets of Weapon Skill. The first would give a nice AC 2 bonus (it makes sense as the weapon would be used to parry) while the latter would give a damage bonus with a too high penalty to THAC0 (dual wielders would never use them untill they reach a high enough level).

 

So we can do like this: we keep the -1 to THAC0 (-2 to offhand) but we lower the damage from +3 to +2 as good compromise. (I have edited my table)

 

Raising the damage to make them appealing despite a bad THAC0 penalty is not a solution: they would become too powerful in SoA/ToB.

I almost agree on what you say, but not on so much on the conclusions: 1) +2 AC for Parry is too much for an easy available pair of gauntlets, and they would be better than the other two gauntlets imo; 2) -1 thac0, +2 damage compared to any item that enhance STR by 2 is pure trash imo, and even a +1 to STR is much better for fighters with STR 18.

[Salk]

Demivrgvs,

 

I understand you think a +2 melee bonus to AC is too much for the Gauntlets of Parrying.

 

I agree that a +2 melee bonus to AC can be preferred to a +2 to damage dealt with a -1 THAC0 penalty (-2 to offhand) but it's not really always the case.

 

I can't instead agree when you say that the Gauntlets of Parrying might be better than the Gauntlets of Extraordinary Specialization! How can a +2 AC Bonus compare to a 1/2 bonus to APR together with a +1 bonus to THAC0?

 

However, you might decide to keep the AC bonus for the Gauntlets of Parrying down to 1 instead of 2, make the Gauntlets of Weapon Expertise give a Power Attack (-1 Thac0 (-2 Offhand), +3 damage) and have the Weapon of Extraordinary Specialization give a 1/2 attack per round bonus and a +1 damage bonus (slightly nerfed compared to the vanilla ones).

 

To my eyes, they look rebalanced enough.

 

I welcome comments!

[DrAzTiK]

even the weakest and worst built fighter ever created should have THAC0 -5/-6!

Imo that's why it is important to apply a minimum of penality at thac0 for Gauntlets of Weapon Expertise

 

another problem for me is we are taking about increase power of:

Gauntlets of weapon skill : if +2AC or +2thac0 (that why i would like a -1damage penality)

Gauntlets of Weapon Expertise ; -1thac0 + 3 damage ==> a player with a minimum of brain will use them on a pure fighter (pure fighters don't care about +1 tach0 or -1thac0) That's why i would like only +2 damage ony and no thac0 penality ....

 

 

 

Gauntlets of Ogre Power are still too powerful

Of course they are... Fighters with 18STR will be better with it. Fighter with 17 STR as well. ( And i don't speak about the pitiable guy who got this item in BG2...)

Futhermore, characters can accumulate Gauntlets and belt no? +5 or 6 STR O_o

[Salk]

DrAzTiK,

 

it seems to me you are a bit "radical" in your views.

 

It seems like for you playing Baldur's Gate (perhaps with AI enhancing mods as well) is like a stroll in the park and that you never seen the Game Over sequence in your life...

 

I believe in balancing the game through IR not in making it harder.

 

To make it harder, we have the difficulty slider plus several AI enhancing mods which can result in a challenge for even the best players. There is nothing easier than making the game impossible. Different thing is to make it balanced.

 

IR has been doing a good job so far at making the various items more interesting and more varied.

 

Honestly, I would dare say that IR and SR globally "nerf" many more items/spells than those they improve in respect to their vanilla counterparts.

 

Demivrgvs can certainly say otherwise if it is not so.

 

We all believe that the vanilla items and spells needed a rebalancing. That doesn't always need to translate into disgracing each item in the game.

 

I notice (and I realize I am standing on the opposite side of this) that many of you like to fantasize about the perfect champion as ideal wielder of the items.

 

But it's not like that.

 

First, not all the items are going to be used by the same character so that not all the power will be concentrated on one person.

 

Second, it's not fair to assume that the character is going to have 18/100 in Strenght, 18 in Dexterity, 18 in Constitution and so on... Some people play with random generated values for role playing reasons...

 

Third, you often take a 30th lvl character with ideal HLA sets as reference. Most of those items will meet the player much before then...

 

Said that, I do welcome every contribution and I believe in discussing everything we propose as only good will come out of it, I am sure!

[Ardanis]

Now that I remember, the only time I ever (!) had difficulty dropping fools due to insufficient thac0 was a fight with Anvil's Torgal on 12-13 party level.

 

Imo that's why it is important to apply a minimum of penality at thac0 for Gauntlets of Weapon Expertise

Am I correct in thinking that the importance you're speaking of is about not to scare weak fighters from using PA? I personally disagree, as by it's concept PA allows skilled warroirs to use their skill (thac0) for additiional harm. If a warrior isn't versed in combat enough then they shouldn't try PA, as they're having troubles hitting even normally. So, while power wise you're correct, there's a RP part too, which imo shouldn't be neglected - BG isn't Diablo.

 

What I do not understand is why opposition wants to always hit, even an uber enemy and with the crappiest rusty dagger. Fighters already rule over wizards, they shouldn't get more benefits imo.

 

 

Then you do agree with me that vanilla's AC wasn't really enough to make any difference, right?

Mostly yes. In SoA well armored character could easily stay in a mob of trolls of wolfweres, but hardly against anyone more strong.

[DrAzTiK]

Why am i radical ?

- Gauntlets of Weapons Skill . I am ok to improve to +2thac0 (while a litle nerf to damage of 1). Am I radical? Sorry but Imo +2AC is also radical and maybe a joke +1AC not exiting at all ( and so less powerfull in comparaison to +3damages), many items increase already AC

- Gauntlets of Weapons expertise: i argument -1thac0 +3damage is a boost for pure fighters. better than +1thac0 +2 damage. Don't you think ? And why boost an item like that who is a bit too much powerfull in vanilla.

- Cumulate STR of belt and gauntlet = boost. But Demivrgvs was taking about break a belt of STR so maybe it's ok. i admit it's not easy to balance Gauntlets and belt coz only +1STR could gain as well 1+damage than +2thac0,+5damages. At least,limited a bit this sort of items should be ok and not radical at all imo.

 

I would just like to say that all i say is only an opinion. I have some difficulty to argue, and I don't want to impose my opinon more than others. And some people seems more radical than me here lol but i try to be objective and fair in my opinons... And I am glad to see poeple and Demivrgvs agree with me sometimes ^^

 

Stop to say me to dl mod who increase difficulty or druid's power please. It's another pb