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[JediMindTrix]

 

 

Zone of Sweet Air to Clerics to keep differentiating them more. I was daring to suggest making the latter work as a party friendly immunity to cloud based spells.

 

This is a pretty solid idea. +1, plz implement lol

 

 

 

Hopefully KR will handle this, but it doesn't belong to SR imo.

 

Speaking of, how's that new build coming?

[Salk]

I am of the idea that we don't really need both DIspel Magic and Remove Magic.

 

They are way too similar.

 

Also one thing about Monster Summoning IV... I understand it's a spell that summons spiders but it feels a bit weird that the icon is different from all the other Monster Summoning spells... In my opinion it should just follow suit.

Edited August 26, 2015 by Salk

[cipher]

I am of the idea that we don't really need both DIspel Magic and Remove Magic.

 

They are way too similar.

 

Also one thing about Monster Summoning IV... I understand it's a spell that summons spiders but it feels a bit weird that the icon is different from all the other Monster Summoning spells... In my opinion it should just follow suit.

 

Are you sure you don't have any other mod affecting the icon? MSIV icon for me follows the same pattern with the rest.

 

Also I don't think Dispel Magic and Remove Magic are really so similar to replace each other. Although to be honest one of my main annoyances with modded BG2 is the Remove Magic spell. It feels such a one-sided tool. The enemies use it to devastating effect, while it's royally worthless when I do. It would be quite the sight to see AI throwing Dispel Magic bombs obliterating their own buffs as well in the process.

Having said that I would not consider a good idea to remove either one. Maybe merge them in one spell, as suggest above. I do think that there are other spells that are more suitable for SI-type menus, such as Protect from Fire/Ice... and Symbol of Death/Stun... That would really elevate their usefulness.

[subtledoctor]

Re: Dispel Magic - I started out thinking of the stupid Inquisitor ability. Is it meant to be offensive, to take down enemy buffs? Then it ought to be replaced by Remove Magic, or even better, Breach.

 

If it is meant to be a way to break evil enchantments affecting your allies (it sort of replaces Lay On Hands, after all) then it should be edited to only affect allies. Either way, Bioware's solution of "eh, let them use it for everything!" is unsatisfactory.

 

Anyway, I realized that the same issue applies to the normal spell. Here there is Remove Magic, specifically meant to affect enemies... but then there is also Dispel, which affects allies but also weirdly encompasses the effects of RM. One sort of supersedes the other, but they're the same level. It's weird.

 

The obvious solution is to give each its own sphere, its own effect. Remove Magic and its mechanics will govern whether you can strip enemies of their advantages; Dispel Magic and its mechanics will govern whether you can cure your allies of ill effects. Make them two sides of the same spell, and now you free up a slot, which I know is in the interest of SR.

 

(But they could also work fine as two separate spells. The main concern Iis removing the overlap.)

[JediMindTrix]

Re: Dispel Magic - I started out thinking of the stupid Inquisitor ability. Is it meant to be offensive, to take down enemy buffs? Then it ought to be replaced by Remove Magic, or even better, Breach.

Demi is going to direct you to KR. Inquisitor's were handled quite nicely.

 

On Remove Magic and Dispel Magic: I also don't experience Cipher's problem where Remove Magic is useless against enemies - mine frequently strip just as much as theirs. I agree with subtledoctor's suggestion in regards to fixing the overlap, however wouldn't making it a single spell mean you wouldn't be able to pick which goes into a contingency or spell trigger?

[Demivrgvs]

Dispel Magic

I started out thinking of the stupid Inquisitor ability. Is it meant to be offensive, to take down enemy buffs? Then it ought to be replaced by Remove Magic, or even better, Breach.

If it is meant to be a way to break evil enchantments affecting your allies (it sort of replaces Lay On Hands, after all) then it should be edited to only affect allies. Either way, Bioware's solution of "eh, let them use it for everything!" is unsatisfactory.

As JediMindTrix says I handled this within KR, where Inquisitor's Dispel Magic is "split into two abilities": Dispel Evil (stronger dispel chance but limited to evil enemies) and Lay on Hands (the Inquisitor's variant can be used to break almost all enchantments on the target).

 

When it comes to Dispel/Remove Magic dualism, I kinda agree the former overlap with the latter, albeit honestly the problem is that Remove Magic should have not been added in the first place (I don't even think it ever existed within any D&D edition). That being said, making Dispel Magic affect only allies could break the AI imo and it would be a real change from PnP.

[subtledoctor]

Re: Inquistors - yeah I know KR is handling that (and Dispel Evil is fantastic and well-done). I only mentioned it to show the train of thought that led me to consider the 3rd-level wizard spells.

 

Re: the wizard spells - those are all good points, especially consideration of the AI. I agree that RM is weird and is conceptually muddled, especially when you bring the various specific spell protections into be equation. (My personal feeling is that DM/RM should be the basic de-buffer, but Deflection/Turning/Trap should block them and shift the encounter into the BG2-style spell/counterspell area. But we've already discussed that stuff at length in its own thread, no need to re-hash it here. )

Edited August 27, 2015 by subtledoctor

[Ardanis]

The party-friendliness is just a part of the problem. The other issue is that you don't want to dispel debuffs on enemy or buffs on allies, and this is where player gains substantial advantage over AI - it's exceedingly impractical to try and calculate the buff/debuff ratio within target AoE with IE's primitive scripting syntax.

Edited August 27, 2015 by Ardanis

[subtledoctor]

Well, that could be solved if DM were made ally-only, no? That way scripts could just use whichever one is appropriate for the situation, offensive or defensive.

[Ardanis]

I'd consider single-target DM, tbh - would be both distinct from RM and also much easier to script for.

[Demivrgvs]

Dispel Magic

I'd consider single-target DM, tbh - would be both distinct from RM and also much easier to script for.

Well, I actually tought about it but I feared the AI could not properly handle the change, not to mention the reaction of players for such a huge nerf.

[Salk]

Dispel Magic

I'd consider single-target DM, tbh - would be both distinct from RM and also much easier to script for.

Well, I actually tought about it but I feared the AI could not properly handle the change, not to mention the reaction of players for such a huge nerf.

 

Ardanis' suggestion is sensible.

 

It would be still better than how it is now but to me, the best solution would not be to make DM single-target but to make RM single target since it's a way more powerful and it's also a level 3 spell.

Edited August 28, 2015 by Salk

[cipher]

If you seriously thinking of tinkering with the dispels, I don't think Dispel Magic is a good candidate. Friendly fire is a serious downside and makes it quite balanced. Making that single target while leaving Remove Magic as is, it's not very sensible.

 

Besides isn't such a change affect in a major way both SCS and aTweaks? I don't like how RM works, but I still prefer it to mucking up the AI of such a widely used mods.

[Fiann of the Silver Hand]

Anything relying on friendly fire as a balance is really only a hindrance to the AI. A player can target with infinitely more precision than any enemy he faces, virtually nullifying friendly fire as a legitimate detriment.

Edited August 29, 2015 by Fiann of the Silver Hand

[Ardanis]

For the record, TriggerOverride(LastSeenBy(Myself),Range(FourthNearest([GOODCUTOFF]),20)) allows to target groups of enemies and !TriggerOverride(LastSeenBy(Myself),Range(NearestEnemyOf(Myself)),20)) to avoid hurting allies. This can be done with ToBEx.

Edited August 29, 2015 by Ardanis