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Also a quick note to Kreso,

Ice storm Support this being level 5 not level 6, its not strong enough to be comparable to Wondrous recall, Regeneration or even sol's orb with a 72 damage cap on a -4 save for half.

Pro X (element) Feels very druidic to have these spells available but how they should work i don't know, party wide seems too strong, liable to make certain encounters trivial and i cannot see a timer short enough to feel balanced yet not be frustrating or of limited use.

 

Lastly, as an update to my previous comment, Faerie fire is making the spirit trolls visible and able to be targeted, a lvl 1 spell, looks like DI is broken then?

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Per anti-illusions - personally, I hate how most of these spells work, I'd prefer to simply remove most of them from the game. Imo, 2 is enough - one low-level (2nd or 3rd) and True seeing. Less is more sometimes, and this is one of those times.

Dispel illusion (if that't the spell that isn't self cast, need to check) is then bugged, I'll fix it.

About Pro X - yea, if you'd give your entire party invunerability to select element indeed this would be hard to balance out. Possible solution, this protection could work vs 1 single spell of select element and then be removed from the character. Kinda like Dispelling Screen vs elemental damage. That way, duration can be as long as one wants - the moment you're hit by a spell (say fireball) your Pro Fire spell would be removed and you'd become vulnerable.

That's all great and imo would work (kinda) well - but - how to explain this in spell description? Moreover since Wizard spells don't work that way.

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Also a quick note to Kreso,

Ice storm Support this being level 5 not level 6, its not strong enough to be comparable to Wondrous recall, Regeneration or even sol's orb with a 72 damage cap on a -4 save for half.

Ice Storm's power is in it's no-save slow and it's power level that allows it to bypass MGoI, not it's damage. The fact that you can squeeze 3 of them into a sequencer is just icing on the cake.

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Detect Invisibility doesn't work against Improved invis's lingering effect which is the only part of it that spirit trolls have active, so to sum up what spells work for this.

 

Level 1 Druid

Level 3 Priest

Level 5 Wizard

 

This cannot be intended effect, wizards getting screwed out of removing improved invis secondary effect (SRv4b installed with BG:EET, BWS)

On Ice Storm, for me its the no save that is the massive issue here, but i will think more about it.

 

About Pro X spells, that is an interesting idea man! i might be able to go one better :-) What if stone skin could be used as a template but effect only that kind of elemental damage, start with a single skin and gain one every 2nd or third caster level and make it possible to cast on anyone in the party single target?

The new way flame arrow works would demolish the spell, you would lose 2 charges or so getting out of an Ice storm, fighting against elementals would work but if you have poor AC it wouldn't be such great protection anymore, things to think about.

 

On Dispel illusion spells, i don't have an issue with the system being a bit complex, true seeing was overpowered and because you start bg2 with Jaheria with it and its the only spell you need the entire for game to combat all illusion spells, i support the SR changes to it to at least have a point for other classes using anti illusion spells, with SCS and contingencies/precast it becomes even more overpowered. Running just SCS and BG2 i recall never using oracle or Detect illusion basically at all and half the point of SR is to make more viable choices to fill up your spell book.

Edited by DavidC
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About Pro X spells, that is an interesting idea man! i might be able to go one better :-) What if stone skin could be used as a template but effect only that kind of elemental damage, start with a single skin and gain one every 2nd or third caster level and make it possible to cast on anyone in the party single target?

The new way flame arrow works would demolish the spell, you would lost 2 charges or so getting out of an Ice storm, fighting against elementals would work but if you have poor AC it wouldn't be such great protection anymore, things to think about.

Trolls are bugged as they are, and invisible trolls are bugged even more. The problem is their claw weapons. Frankly, I'd remove all trolls from the game and be done with it, their silly death scripts, and, in this case, their nonsensical invisibility.

 

About Pro X: I don't know if this is possible.

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Detect Invisibility doesn't work against Improved invis's lingering effect which is the only part of it that spirit trolls have active,

Detect Invisibility doesn't dispel their improved invisibility, but I think it lets the caster (only) target improved invisible creatures with spells. I think. Kreso, is that right?

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Detect Illusion - dispels all invisibility/illusion spells in an AoE up to level 4. Makes Imp.Invisible enemies visible and targetable (fully dispels it). "stronger" version of this spell is Oracle

 

Detect Invisibility - dispels normal invisibility, makes caster able to cast spells vs imp.invisible enemies but doesn't dispel imp.invisibility. "stronger" version of this spell is True Seeing

 

Detect Illusion is bugged since it has wrong targeting; now looking at it Creeping Doom also has wrong targeting (requires a target, unlike Plague).

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Sorry to hear that it might not be possible in connection to Pro X, the idea was pretty cool imo.

 

And have to mention that no, that does not seem to be the case with Detect invisibility, it just reveals the opponent, even the caster of Detect Invisibility cannot target the enemy with spells,

As for Detect Illusion (lvl 3 mage spell) have now just tested it on the Shade lord and it also doesn't reveal Improved Invi's on him.

 

What i would suggest is the following for balance purposes in regard to Illusion dispelling.

 

Faerie fire LvL 1 stays as it is, as even though it removes all effects of improved invis its a guessing game without knowing where you opponent is with only a '5 radius, unless he has other magical effects giving it away or just remove its ability to cancel the targeting immunity and -4 AC of II, (Don't forget FF gives a 2 points AC penalty, halving II's 4 bonus also)

Detect Invisibility LvL 2 considering it only gets rid of invis and not II -4 AC/not targetable or illusion spells it should be on a casting time of 1 and be the go to spell for dealing with stealth thieves and potion of invis users, if the enemy is in groups or spamming such like they sometimes do with SCS then True seeing is the correct choice here and solidifies the identity difference between the spells.

Detect illusion LvL 3 This spell needs to be fixed, given that Mgol is lvl 4 and canceled by a lvl 3 spell it is fitting that Detect illusion should cancel all effects of II as well as everything lvl 4 or lower. If you are playing BG:EET and run into an SCS mage at a high enough level to screw over Dispel magic but you are lvl 8, you cannot dispel and cast at the enemy with single target spells at all if they are covered by II, furthermore if you are level 9 even, you have to sacrifice your single shiny new lvl 5 slot to carry oracle 24/7. (unless you have a cleric or druid in the party)

Oracle Lvl 5 The ultimate single trigger dispel for illusions this spell should stay as it is.

True Seeing lvl 6 This spell should stay as it is in its SR4 beta format, don't add the Improved Invisibility canceling component back in, this is a spell that is really needed with SCS shadow thieves and others but should not be the only spell you need to cancel illusions 90% of the time, this spell fix is a decent part of the reason i love SR apart from the druids fix, it means there are thing to think about in not just combat and spell protection dispelling but also the illusion game. Demivrgs seem to very much understand this point of view, i understand that this might feel over complex and/or annoying to some.

 

Lastly I think ghost armor should not be dispelled by any anti-illusion spell, breaks the canon of D&D a bit but for balance it should be treated like any other 'combat protection', considering SCS behavior, Ghost armor is practically useless half the time if it is effected by illusion dispels, as all SCS mages pack them.

 

Sorry for the text wall.

Edited by DavidC
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Detect illusion LvL 3 This spell needs to be fixed, given that Mgol is lvl 4 and canceled by a lvl 3 spell it is fitting that Detect illusion should cancel all effects of II as well as everything lvl 4 or lower. If you are playing BG:EET and run into an SCS mage at a high enough level to screw over Dispel magic but you are lvl 8, you cannot dispel and cast at the enemy with single target spells at all if they are covered by II,

This would not be a problem if Detect Invisibility is working as intended, you will be able to target II opponents with spells (but they will retain their 4-point AC and save bonuses). And if Dispel Illusion is working as intended (changed to 'target: self') it will dispel II utterly.

 

I still think True Seeing should be in the level 5 Oracle spot to match the priest spell, and Oracle should take the level 6 True Seeing spot and function like vanilla True Seeing (but firing every 3 seconds for 5 rounds, instead of every 6 seconds for 10 rounds). Then there is a symmetry: a 'seeing' spell at levels 2 and 5, and a 'dispelling' spell at levels 3 and 6.

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Interesting, if both DI lvl2 and DI lvl3 work like they should then yeah that totally fixes basically all my issues with this and i would love to test that out and report back

 

True seeing as it is currently in SR4b in a level 5 slot sounds fine to me, Oracle in lvl 6 is fine but your stated effect causes some issue to my mind, i do like the synergy of it as you say but:

  • Dispelling every 3 seconds for five rounds sounds like a single spell shuts down illusion spell casting totally for 30 seconds, even simulacrum being canceled by a level 5 spell like vanilla if you recall.
  • A round being 6 seconds means that even drinking an invis potion is totally useless, let alone casting anything from the illusion school
  • Almost All SCS Tactics component shadow thieves chug invis potions, this would render all these encounters trivial once you hit level 12, currently with SR4b they can still get in a single backstab with True seeing running against them if i recall correctly(and giving new clairvoyance a use), if changed they would just stand there chugging useless potions while you massacre them.
  • SR compatible SCS version would have to be totally changed to give SCS wizards proper usage of this spell, as currently if unchanged they would do silly things with casting both, when this new oracle would be just a better choice.
  • If new oracle behaved like old True seeing but better then you basically have a spell that Demi altered for the purposes of increasing usability and choice within spell schools and overall, back in the game, a lot of what i enjoy in SR is that a lot of spells in vanilla that are left behind as you progress in level are usable again, this would kind of go against that.

i'm strongly against that idea, sorry subtle doctor. ( Maybe if duration shorter, or triggers every second round etc)

 

Just quickly i would mention that i hope you don't see this as me taking a shot at you, i have done little for the BG community over the last decade or so and the mods you have worked on are legend for us into IE engine modding, i have greatly enjoyed M&G and Scales of Balance for your approach to game play over PnP canon.

Edited by DavidC
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Sorry to hear that it might not be possible in connection to Pro X, the idea was pretty cool imo.

.....

I'm not saying it's not possible. I don't know if it is possible. :) I'll respond to the rest later today, got to work...

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Just wanted to report back some findings,

Detect illusion works if you target enemies directly instead of firing it in an aoe style, therefore it is useless for anything already invisible, what is worse is that it doesn't even dispel all of Improved invis, i hit a mage with it running improved invis and Mirror image, MI is dispelled II isn't even touched, cannot target with spells afterwards, loved SR in BG1 but it is becoming a serious headache in BG2.

Is there a more recent beta available somewhere?

 

EDIT: If there is a way for me to assist you or Demi in any way let me know i have some time off for the next month.

Edited by DavidC
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EDIT: If there is a way for me to assist you or Demi in any way let me know i have some time off for the next month.

 

Demi has been AWOL for quite some time now and has not been active for much longer before then.

 

Our hopes rest only with kreso, although I realize that taking care of IR and SR alone is a nightmare.

Edited by Salk
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Haste and Improved Haste is hardcore stuff, say goodbye to your cheese.... Gameplay is so MUCH better thx to this.

 

and true...illusion detect spells are kinda funky. Example: Spirit trolls are improved invisible all the time, can not target them with flame arrows etc. but I think Cernd has True Sight, not a problem. He casted True Sight and...nothing, Spirit Trolls still improved invisible. But Cenrd was actually able to cast Feerie Fire AOE spell and their imp invis. was dispelled. Ferie Fire is 1lvl spell and True Sight is 5lvl spell - WTF???

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