Revised Potions

[yarpen]

Did you knew that in PnP there was one Potion of Giant's Strength and it's effect (STR bonus) was random - and most important, it was randomised in the moment of drinking it. So In BG2 there should be one Potion of Giant Strenght which allows us to put into game some new ones. For example potion of Greater Heroism or Gaseous Form.

[Shaitan]

Did you knew that in PnP there was one Potion of Giant's Strength and it's effect (STR bonus) was random - and most important, it was randomised in the moment of drinking it. So In BG2 there should be one Potion of Giant Strenght which allows us to put into game some new ones. For example potion of Greater Heroism or Gaseous Form.

No I never heard of that, kinda like a cursed potion

[Ardanis]

I suggest to reduce Giant's duration to one turn, partly because it is very effective combat potion, partly because there're six of them.

 

For Strength/Agility/Wisdom/etc., +2 bonus seems better to me, than setting a stat to 18. STR is problematic here, however, because it would stack with Giants...

[Demivrgvs]

Satisfied with this revision? I do really find most of the changes welcome.

Yep, I do like revised potions a lot. I have very few doubts (e.g. Potion of Magic Blocking, which imo should just be a Potion of Dispel) but almost all possible solutions have already been discussed in this topic. I'll try to think about this whole matter a little more today and post my "conclusions".

 

Did you knew that in PnP there was one Potion of Giant's Strength and it's effect (STR bonus) was random - and most important, it was randomised in the moment of drinking it. So In BG2 there should be one Potion of Giant Strenght which allows us to put into game some new ones. For example potion of Greater Heroism or Gaseous Form.

I cannot replace a Potion of Giant Strength with things like a Potion of Gaseous Form, it would seriously screw the AI (especially SCS which uses these potions on a regular base).

 

 

I suggest to reduce Giant's duration to one turn, partly because it is very effective combat potion, partly because there're six of them.

Haven't I already agreed? Anyway, I agree, especially because it's a relatively common potion with SCS installed.

 

For Strength/Agility/Wisdom/etc., +2 bonus seems better to me, than setting a stat to 18. STR is problematic here, however, because it would stack with Giants...

I thought we agreed on this as well, though we said +3 or +4. That being said, I'm not so fond of this solution either for various reasons (e.g. Potion of Fortitude would work way better as a +xhp instead of +y CON), but I'll explain everything later in a more exhaustive post.

[Demivrgvs]

Ok, let's try to put down all the remaining doubts.

 

Potion of Sharp Eyes

I'm still unsure about this for various reasons:

1) does its "find trap" ability make it overlap with Potion of Perception? This potion allows non-thieves to detect traps quite easily, and I don't know if it's a good thing or a bad thing.

2) what do you think of its % detect chance? Is it too high? Too low? This also lead to the next doubt...

3) would you prefer to turn it into PnP Potion of Sight (Detect Invisibility for 1 turn, plus immunity to blindness)?

4) last but not least, its "detectability". Being a potion it should work almost as an innate ability, thus ignoring things like lich's immunities...but what about Non-detection and SI:Div? Should it be blocked by them? I'd probably let both spells protect from this spell.

 

 

Potion of Magic Blocking

I'm still not so convinced about it. The current solution is:

- dispel on self when consumed

- no spell failure, unlike the Scroll of Protection from Magic, which works as a full anti-magic field

- immunity to spells up to 5th lvl (aka Greater Globe of Invulnerability)

- short 5 rounds duration

Do you like it?

 

What I don't like is that GGoI and dispel are kinda opposite concepts. The similar scroll has the dispel effect, but then it stays true to the concept, inglobing the user in an anti-magic field. The problem is that I cannot remove the dispel feature because RR's AI uses it to dispel things like Insect Plague (which is silly imo, but that's another point), and I cannot add spell failure because RR uses the potion thinking it doesn't cause it. I'm not sure if the same things are true for SCS AI. Long story short, the potion has to remain more or less as it is now with two variants:

a) full immunity to all spells - making it even more similar to the scroll, with a shorter duration but no drawbacks

b) dispel on self only - as per aVENGER's suggestion

 

What do you think?

 

 

Stat-enhancing potions --> new potions

I'd divide these in two categories, depending on which stats they affect, physical ones or mental ones. In short, while I find quite common in a fantasy setting to boost physical stats with potions, I do not like the concept of boosting mental stats. Do you really think it makes sense to have Minsc suddenly turn into Einstein because of a potion? Does such potion also grants him a PHD in engineering? Same for wisdom: the most bold pirate in the realms drinks a potion and turns into a wise and careful guy?

 

All this to say that imo:

a) Potions of Strength, Agility and Fortitude are fine --> but I'd still suggest to tweak them to make them appelaing

b) Potions of Genius, Insight, and Mind Focusing makes no sense --> I'd replace them with new, more useful/interesting potions

 

In case you agree on b) the only valid alternatives I can suggest are:

- Potion of Vocalize (this is almost a must have for clerics and druids imo)

- Potion of Restoration (more a convenient tool than anything else, but still not that bad)

- Potion of Memory (PnP original name is Mage Wine and restores a single spell of any lvl, but we may discuss the amount of spells and eventual lvl cap)

 

Regarding a) we previously discussed two alternatives to vanilla's "set stat to 18":

* making them grant +4 to the respective stat

* making them grant +2 to the respective stat plus a secondary effect (or two)

I'll try to suggest a third way, slightly more "radical", but feel free to bash them, as I'm not so sure of them myself!

 

 

Potion of Strength

Now, a crazy idea is to replace it with something similar to PnP Potion of Rage, just to make it a little more unique (we already have tons of STR enhancing potions). In PnP it's a +2 to hit/dmg but drinker is forced to go in melee every round (a berserking-like drawback). Considering SCS may use it (though it generally use potions of giant strength) we cannot use the drawback imo, but we may still use the concept and decide ourselves the effects. For example instead of +x dmg we may opt for "always inflict max dmg" (at least it's not another stackable dmg bonus), and a +2 to saves vs spells (aka all mind affecting spells within SR) may fit too.

 

Else it can either stay as the lesser STR enhancing potion (though set STR to 18 is lame imo) or +2 to STR and secondary effect (but I cannot imagine anything other than "max dmg", which is too much imo on top of a +STR, especially for those chars going from STR 17 to 19).

 

 

Potion of Fortitude

Due to AD&D rules a CON bonus really sucks imo (much more than +STR and +DEX). What about making it work in a less random and more effective way, granting something like +20 maximum hit points? We may even add +2 to saves vs death/poison if we wish so.

 

 

Potion of Agility

Again, I'm not too fond of a DEX bonus because its effect is too random, but I don't have many other ideas. A bonus to saves vs. breath is obviously the first thing that comes to mind (in fact we suggested it as secondary effect for the +2 DEX solution), but than any other idea (e.g. increased movement speed) would make it almost as a second Potion of Speed.

 

I had a really crazy idea, making it work more or less as PnP thief's Evasion ability. The only way to implement it is more or less what aVENGER did (and what I'll do for KR's thieves HLA), which means a full immunity to spells which may be avoided by having lightning reflexes and agility (e.g. Fireball). Most Invocation spells fit imo, turning it into a sort of lesser SI:Inv. Too crazy?

[Kalindor]

Ok, let's try to put down all the remaining doubts.

 

Potion of Sharp Eyes

I'm still unsure about this for various reasons:

1) does its "find trap" ability make it overlap with Potion of Perception? This potion allows non-thieves to detect traps quite easily, and I don't know if it's a good thing or a bad thing.

2) what do you think of its % detect chance? Is it too high? Too low? This also lead to the next doubt...

3) would you prefer to turn it into PnP Potion of Sight (Detect Invisibility for 1 turn, plus immunity to blindness)?

4) last but not least, its "detectability". Being a potion it should work almost as an innate ability, thus ignoring things like lich's immunities...but what about Non-detection and SI:Div? Should it be blocked by them? I'd probably let both spells protect from this spell.

Instead of seeing invisibility, maybe make it give a large bonus to Detect Illusion instead. This indicates that skill is still required to discern illusions from reality and the potion simply functions to enhance eyesight. A trap-detection skill bonus for thieves is also appropriate, but trap detection for other classes rather implies that this potion imparts the expertise of determining the telltale signs of traps, whereas the potion's name only states that it enhances eyesight. If you wanted a potion that detects traps for anyone, the name should probably be Potion of Danger Sense or something.

Potion of Magic Blocking

I'm still not so convinced about it. The current solution is:

- dispel on self when consumed

- no spell failure, unlike the Scroll of Protection from Magic, which works as a full anti-magic field

- immunity to spells up to 5th lvl (aka Greater Globe of Invulnerability)

- short 5 rounds duration

Do you like it?

 

What I don't like is that GGoI and dispel are kinda opposite concepts. The similar scroll has the dispel effect, but then it stays true to the concept, inglobing the user in an anti-magic field. The problem is that I cannot remove the dispel feature because RR's AI uses it to dispel things like Insect Plague (which is silly imo, but that's another point), and I cannot add spell failure because RR uses the potion thinking it doesn't cause it. I'm not sure if the same things are true for SCS AI. Long story short, the potion has to remain more or less as it is now with two variants:

a) full immunity to all spells - making it even more similar to the scroll, with a shorter duration but no drawbacks

b) dispel on self only - as per aVENGER's suggestion

A potion that simply dispels effects on the drinker would be quite welcome. Personally I'd like to minimize the amount of consumables that give immunity to all spells, so I vote against this.

In case you agree on b) the only valid alternatives I can suggest are:

- Potion of Vocalize (this is almost a must have for clerics and druids imo)

- Potion of Restoration (more a convenient tool than anything else, but still not that bad)

- Potion of Memory (PnP original name is Mage Wine and restores a single spell of any lvl, but we may discuss the amount of spells and eventual lvl cap)

These all sound useful. As someone who usually just sells most potions, I would definitely carry these around if I found some.

Potion of Strength

Now, a crazy idea is to replace it with something similar to PnP Potion of Rage, just to make it a little more unique (we already have tons of STR enhancing potions). In PnP it's a +2 to hit/dmg but drinker is forced to go in melee every round (a berserking-like drawback). Considering SCS may use it (though it generally use potions of giant strength) we cannot use the drawback imo, but we may still use the concept and decide ourselves the effects. For example instead of +x dmg we may opt for "always inflict max dmg" (at least it's not another stackable dmg bonus), and a +2 to saves vs spells (aka all mind affecting spells within SR) may fit too.

 

Else it can either stay as the lesser STR enhancing potion (though set STR to 18 is lame imo) or +2 to STR and secondary effect (but I cannot imagine anything other than "max dmg", which is too much imo on top of a +STR, especially for those chars going from STR 17 to 19).

I'm not so sure that max damage is a good idea. If the duration is anything other than one round (which would be a Potion of Kai, heh) then it could be used in conjunction with HLA's like Improved Whirlwind Attack and the like. *shudders*

 

Potion of Fortitude

Due to AD&D rules a CON bonus really sucks imo (much more than +STR and +DEX). What about making it work in a less random and more effective way, granting something like +20 maximum hit points? We may even add +2 to saves vs death/poison if we wish so.

A percentage bonus to HP would usually be more appealing at ToB-levels. It would also not make it ridiculous in early BG1 if there are any Potions of Fortitude there.

[Ardanis]

Potion of Sharp Eyes

It's primary use is DI imo, so yes for PnP version.

SI:Div - conceptually I'm unsure (though rather yes than no), but balance wise it should block the effect.

 

Potion of Magic Blocking

SCS detects it like immunity to all levels, but AI doesn't seem to use this potion at all. Fine to strip the immunity then.

Availability may be increased by 50%-70% in this case.

 

Mental potions

I think I've pointed out similar issue about them - they allow to ignore these stats on creation and deceive all those stat-checknig dialogue afterwards.

Vocalize and Memory are fine, but I'm less sure about Restoration, because there're already scrolls for that. No better ideas though.

 

Potion of Strength

SCS doesn't use it and Rage is fine, but I fear the berserk effect is too heavy of a drawback for +2 damage/thaco (Heroism does the same).

Add AC penalty instead? Or lower berserk chance and reduce it's duration, so that only 50% of the time at most the character is berserkering. Or add other berserk bonuses from the kit, which imo is not good for this very common potion (it even drops randomly via RNDTRE** tables).

I'm not so sure that max damage is a good idea. If the duration is anything other than one round (which would be a Potion of Kai, heh) then it could be used in conjunction with HLA's like Improved Whirlwind Attack and the like. *shudders*

Theoretically, we can reduce the amount in game.

 

Potion of Fortitude

SCS drinks this potion if it has CON<15, but it never assigns it to creatures.

The +X bonus may be dependant on user's level, thus not overlapping with Power's +% HP bonus.

 

Potion of Agility

Evasion is fine.

[Shaitan]

Potion of Sharp Eyes

I'm still unsure about this for various reasons:

1) does its "find trap" ability make it overlap with Potion of Perception? This potion allows non-thieves to detect traps quite easily, and I don't know if it's a good thing or a bad thing.

2) what do you think of its % detect chance? Is it too high? Too low? This also lead to the next doubt...

3) would you prefer to turn it into PnP Potion of Sight (Detect Invisibility for 1 turn, plus immunity to blindness)?

4) last but not least, its "detectability". Being a potion it should work almost as an innate ability, thus ignoring things like lich's immunities...but what about Non-detection and SI:Div? Should it be blocked by them? I'd probably let both spells protect from this spell.

I don't like 1), but rather prefer 3)

 

Potion of Magic Blocking

I'm still not so convinced about it. The current solution is:

- dispel on self when consumed

- no spell failure, unlike the Scroll of Protection from Magic, which works as a full anti-magic field

- immunity to spells up to 5th lvl (aka Greater Globe of Invulnerability)

- short 5 rounds duration

Do you like it?

 

What I don't like is that GGoI and dispel are kinda opposite concepts. The similar scroll has the dispel effect, but then it stays true to the concept, inglobing the user in an anti-magic field. The problem is that I cannot remove the dispel feature because RR's AI uses it to dispel things like Insect Plague (which is silly imo, but that's another point), and I cannot add spell failure because RR uses the potion thinking it doesn't cause it. I'm not sure if the same things are true for SCS AI. Long story short, the potion has to remain more or less as it is now with two variants:

a) full immunity to all spells - making it even more similar to the scroll, with a shorter duration but no drawbacks

b) dispel on self only - as per aVENGER's suggestion

 

What do you think?

b) is good.

 

Stat-enhancing potions --> new potions

I'd divide these in two categories, depending on which stats they affect, physical ones or mental ones. In short, while I find quite common in a fantasy setting to boost physical stats with potions, I do not like the concept of boosting mental stats. Do you really think it makes sense to have Minsc suddenly turn into Einstein because of a potion? Does such potion also grants him a PHD in engineering? Same for wisdom: the most bold pirate in the realms drinks a potion and turns into a wise and careful guy?

 

All this to say that imo:

a) Potions of Strength, Agility and Fortitude are fine --> but I'd still suggest to tweak them to make them appelaing

b) Potions of Genius, Insight, and Mind Focusing makes no sense --> I'd replace them with new, more useful/interesting potions

I completely agree. Even in RL people drink potions to become more agile/stronger/more enduring

 

In case you agree on b) the only valid alternatives I can suggest are:

- Potion of Vocalize (this is almost a must have for clerics and druids imo)

- Potion of Restoration (more a convenient tool than anything else, but still not that bad)

- Potion of Memory (PnP original name is Mage Wine and restores a single spell of any lvl, but we may discuss the amount of spells and eventual lvl cap)

This is what I really want to see.

 

Potion of Strength

Now, a crazy idea is to replace it with something similar to PnP Potion of Rage, just to make it a little more unique (we already have tons of STR enhancing potions). In PnP it's a +2 to hit/dmg but drinker is forced to go in melee every round (a berserking-like drawback). Considering SCS may use it (though it generally use potions of giant strength) we cannot use the drawback imo, but we may still use the concept and decide ourselves the effects. For example instead of +x dmg we may opt for "always inflict max dmg" (at least it's not another stackable dmg bonus), and a +2 to saves vs spells (aka all mind affecting spells within SR) may fit too.

I like it, perhaps even better with Ardanis' suggestion.

 

Potion of Fortitude

Due to AD&D rules a CON bonus really sucks imo (much more than +STR and +DEX). What about making it work in a less random and more effective way, granting something like +20 maximum hit points? We may even add +2 to saves vs death/poison if we wish so.

I like it, if it works with SCS

 

Potion of AgilityI had a really crazy idea, making it work more or less as PnP thief's Evasion ability. The only way to implement it is more or less what aVENGER did (and what I'll do for KR's thieves HLA), which means a full immunity to spells which may be avoided by having lightning reflexes and agility (e.g. Fireball). Most Invocation spells fit imo, turning it into a sort of lesser SI:Inv. Too crazy?

It's a great suggestion. Can it be implemented?

[yarpen]

Potion of Sharp Eyes

To make Thieves still viable, make it have something like 10%-20% chance for revealing traps per round. Or I've got another idea to make it balanced. What about making drinking character detecting traps as thief with let's say 60% in Find Traps skill. It'd be done via summoning invisible, invincible thief with such a stat who's detecting those. Also it'd be a nice option for Detect Illusions! I think such a solution would be much better.

 

Potion of Magic Blocking

I'm all for making it simple Potion of Dispel, which removes all spell effects from drinker. I've also got a nice name for this one, comes from PnP: Potion of Disenchantment. That'd fit even better to potion with Break Enchantment effect, but that'd be nearly unplayable.

 

Stat-enahncing Potions

What about my old idea about those? +2 Stat Bonus and additional effects. I'd even opt for removing Stat Bonuses as overall and just grant those additional effects. What about:

 

Potion of Agility: +1 bonus to AC, +1 to AC vs. missles; +1 bonus to movement speed; +2 bonus to saves vs. breathe.

Potion of Toughness: +20 bonus to Hit Points, 5% physical resistances.

Potion of Iron Will: immunity to charm; +3 bonus to saves vs. spells.

 

I'm still all for removing all of the variants of Potion of Giant's Strenght and putting those new potions instead of those. I like all of them, they grant some diversity to player's gears. I'd suggest to make Potion of Memory restore 1-2 spells (100% chance for 1 spell, 50% chance for second) from levels 1-4. So it isn't so uncommon. And I think that's quite a good equivalent of Potion of Intelligence.

 

Additional ideas for potions: Potion of Greater Heroism, Oil of Impact, Potion of Clairvorance

[Shaitan]

Stat-enahncing Potions

What about my old idea about those? +2 Stat Bonus and additional effects. I'd even opt for removing Stat Bonuses as overall and just grant those additional effects. What about:

 

Potion of Agility: +1 bonus to AC, +1 to AC vs. missles; +1 bonus to movement speed; +2 bonus to saves vs. breathe.

Potion of Toughness: +20 bonus to Hit Points, 5% physical resistances.

Potion of Iron Will: immunity to charm; +3 bonus to saves vs. spells.

I like Demis idea better.

[Salk]

Ok, let's try to put down all the remaining doubts.

 

Potion of Sharp Eyes

I'm still unsure about this for various reasons:

1) does its "find trap" ability make it overlap with Potion of Perception? This potion allows non-thieves to detect traps quite easily, and I don't know if it's a good thing or a bad thing.

2) what do you think of its % detect chance? Is it too high? Too low? This also lead to the next doubt...

3) would you prefer to turn it into PnP Potion of Sight (Detect Invisibility for 1 turn, plus immunity to blindness)?

4) last but not least, its "detectability". Being a potion it should work almost as an innate ability, thus ignoring things like lich's immunities...but what about Non-detection and SI:Div? Should it be blocked by them? I'd probably let both spells protect from this spell.

 

I like the current implementation of this potion so I would just try and keep that formula. I would not be worried about point 1). About point 2) I believe a 50% chance is fine. I am against changing it to 3) and about 4) I think that balance-wise, Non-detection and SI:Div should protect against it.

 

 

Potion of Magic Blocking

I'm still not so convinced about it. The current solution is:

- dispel on self when consumed

- no spell failure, unlike the Scroll of Protection from Magic, which works as a full anti-magic field

- immunity to spells up to 5th lvl (aka Greater Globe of Invulnerability)

- short 5 rounds duration

Do you like it?

 

What I don't like is that GGoI and dispel are kinda opposite concepts. The similar scroll has the dispel effect, but then it stays true to the concept, inglobing the user in an anti-magic field. The problem is that I cannot remove the dispel feature because RR's AI uses it to dispel things like Insect Plague (which is silly imo, but that's another point), and I cannot add spell failure because RR uses the potion thinking it doesn't cause it. I'm not sure if the same things are true for SCS AI. Long story short, the potion has to remain more or less as it is now with two variants:

a) full immunity to all spells - making it even more similar to the scroll, with a shorter duration but no drawbacks

b) dispel on self only - as per aVENGER's suggestion

 

What do you think?

 

I would choose a) because the game needs something other than just the scrolls to protect against spells, especially if SCS II is installed. The short duration, the potion's cost (to be raised) and its rarity would make it sure that the game is still balanced enough.

 

Stat-enhancing potions --> new potions

I'd divide these in two categories, depending on which stats they affect, physical ones or mental ones. In short, while I find quite common in a fantasy setting to boost physical stats with potions, I do not like the concept of boosting mental stats. Do you really think it makes sense to have Minsc suddenly turn into Einstein because of a potion? Does such potion also grants him a PHD in engineering? Same for wisdom: the most bold pirate in the realms drinks a potion and turns into a wise and careful guy?

 

All this to say that imo:

a) Potions of Strength, Agility and Fortitude are fine --> but I'd still suggest to tweak them to make them appelaing

b) Potions of Genius, Insight, and Mind Focusing makes no sense --> I'd replace them with new, more useful/interesting potions

 

I, like the others, fully agree with you. Keep the physical enhancing potions and let's replace the other three with something more sensible.

 

In case you agree on b) the only valid alternatives I can suggest are:

- Potion of Vocalize (this is almost a must have for clerics and druids imo)

- Potion of Restoration (more a convenient tool than anything else, but still not that bad)

- Potion of Memory (PnP original name is Mage Wine and restores a single spell of any lvl, but we may discuss the amount of spells and eventual lvl cap)

 

They are all nice, especially Potion of Memory.

 

Regarding a) we previously discussed two alternatives to vanilla's "set stat to 18":

* making them grant +4 to the respective stat

* making them grant +2 to the respective stat plus a secondary effect (or two)

I'll try to suggest a third way, slightly more "radical", but feel free to bash them, as I'm not so sure of them myself!

 

I am really for keeping things simple here. Go for the +4 to respective stat. Easy.

 

Potion of Strength

Now, a crazy idea is to replace it with something similar to PnP Potion of Rage, just to make it a little more unique (we already have tons of STR enhancing potions). In PnP it's a +2 to hit/dmg but drinker is forced to go in melee every round (a berserking-like drawback). Considering SCS may use it (though it generally use potions of giant strength) we cannot use the drawback imo, but we may still use the concept and decide ourselves the effects. For example instead of +x dmg we may opt for "always inflict max dmg" (at least it's not another stackable dmg bonus), and a +2 to saves vs spells (aka all mind affecting spells within SR) may fit too.

 

Else it can either stay as the lesser STR enhancing potion (though set STR to 18 is lame imo) or +2 to STR and secondary effect (but I cannot imagine anything other than "max dmg", which is too much imo on top of a +STR, especially for those chars going from STR 17 to 19).

 

I don't like making this a lesser STR enhancing potion. PnP Potion of Rage would be better and it would be fine to have SCS use it with its drawbacks. After all, it's not that the AI cares about that so much. Let them also go berserk! :-) Oh and while beserk they should have immunity to stun&charm of course!

 

Potion of Fortitude

Due to AD&D rules a CON bonus really sucks imo (much more than +STR and +DEX). What about making it work in a less random and more effective way, granting something like +20 maximum hit points? We may even add +2 to saves vs death/poison if we wish so.

 

I would not drift away from the other physical enhancing potions. If not other for internal consistency so I would go for a +4 bonus to Constitution. At high level it could mean quite much for people with average Constitution values.

 

 

Potion of Agility

Again, I'm not too fond of a DEX bonus because its effect is too random, but I don't have many other ideas. A bonus to saves vs. breath is obviously the first thing that comes to mind (in fact we suggested it as secondary effect for the +2 DEX solution), but than any other idea (e.g. increased movement speed) would make it almost as a second Potion of Speed.

 

I had a really crazy idea, making it work more or less as PnP thief's Evasion ability. The only way to implement it is more or less what aVENGER did (and what I'll do for KR's thieves HLA), which means a full immunity to spells which may be avoided by having lightning reflexes and agility (e.g. Fireball). Most Invocation spells fit imo, turning it into a sort of lesser SI:Inv. Too crazy?

 

I really like the Potion of Evasion concept. If you go for it (and I certainly hope you will) then my take about Potion of Magic Blocking and Potion of Fortitude would differ. So much depends on the fact that you are or are not introducing this potion in the game.

[Ardanis]

Additional ideas for potions: Potion of Greater Heroism, Oil of Impact, Potion of Clairvorance

You know, we do have three fire potions. Even while they're somewhat different in the method of use, basically they're still the same alchemical fire. Just like six Giant ones. And then, there're acid and holy water in PnP sources. So we can have it like this:

- Fire is obvious, the fireball.

- Acid flask, either works as 3-5 round long Melf Acid Arrow, or can be used to coat a weapon for bonus 1d4 acid damage.

- Holy water can be used as anti-undead AoE but with smaller radius and/or less damage than fire, to be consumed for +2 AC/saves vs undead (as ProUndead scroll, but potion is cheaper and weaker), or bless the weapon for 1d6 damage and maybe 1-2 thaco vs undead.

[yarpen]

To coating weapons stuff I'd also add Poison. Maybe a better version of assassin's poison and with chance for hurt yourself (Assassin's are immune to this effect). Also it'd need to be expensive. Maybe lethal one?

[Demivrgvs]

I won't use quotes to avoid a huge wall of text.

 

Potion of Sharp Eyes --> Potion of Sight

@Kalindor, what you are suggesting (detect traps and illusions bonus) is already covered by Potion of Perception

 

@yarpen, I think I told you that PnP Potion of Clarity granted even a full True Seeing effect, it's just that I'm really not sure allowing any class to find traps, detect invisibility and dispel illusions is a good idea. I know you like the idea of a solo fighter being able to easily counter everything (V3 potions and green scrolls already helps you a lot more than before), but for me this still is a party based rpg. Point is that even if the chance to detect is 50% you just have to drink two potions (2 party members) and suddenly you have a 100% Detect Illusions (aka True Seeing), while at the same time you're stripping away from thieves one of their most interesting features (not to mention thieves must concentrate to detect, this potion wouldn't even require that).

 

Other players seem to be fine with either solution or prefer PnP Potion of Sight, thus I think I'll opt for it unless someone can convince me that yarpen's suggestion is better.

 

 

Potion of Magic Blocking --> Potion of Magic Dispelling

I'm glad it seems almost anyone agree on this.

 

 

Potion of Strength --> Potion of Rage

I didn't expected this to be accepted so easily. Anyway, for its effects, this potion shouldn't be much powerful, and even a plain +1 hit +2 dmg (which ironically is what STR 18 would have granted to those with low STR) could be enough imo. Then we could add small bonuses (to make it unique) and an eventual drawback a la PnP only if such bonuses are considerable. For example I suggested +2 to saves vs spell instead of a complete mind shield, and -1 to AC is more than enough to balance off those enhanced saves.

 

Feel free to suggest your own solution, but let's try to keep it relatively simple.

 

 

Potion of Agility

I thought this was even crazier than the above one. My first attempt to write down its description is the following (almost stolen from aVENGER's Evasion description).

 

"This potion bestows upon the person drinking it superior reflexes and extraordinary agility. Through nearly superhuman effort, the imbiber can position himself out of harm's way mere seconds before an energy discharge reaches him, and avoid damage from energy discharges such as breath weapons, fireball spells and the like. After drinking this potion the drinker can evade the effects of the following spells: Burning Hands, Fireball, Lightning Bolt, Call Lightning, Flame Strike, Cone of Cold, Sunfire, Chain Lightning, Delayed Blast Fireball and all forms of Dragon's Breath. The effect will last for 1 turn, and cannot be dispelled."

 

Should spells like Magic Missile, Acid Arrow, Flame Arrow, etc. be included?

 

 

Potion of Fortitude

Kalindor's suggestion is good, I'd probably go with +20% bonus to hp to make it balanced for every stage of the game. I don't worry too much for it not stacking with Heroism (actually it's fine to not have tons of stacking bonuses imo), and between the two potions I'd probably prefer to turn the latter's bonus into a small fixed value rather than changing this one.

 

 

Potion of Vocalize

It seems we all like this.

 

 

Potion of Restoration

@Ardanis, you're right, but isn't the scroll usable only by clerics?

 

 

Potion of Memory

I knew this one could quickly be accepted by anyone. I'm less sure instead how it should work, thought I do think PnP solution isn't the best one (e.g. restoring one 9th lvl spell should be off-limit imo). Its maximum effectiveness shouldn't be higher than Wondrous Recall (which is a 6th lvl spell), thus I'd limit it to 1st to 4th lvl spells (surely no more than 5th). I'd probably go with one of the following solutions:

a) one spell for each lvl from 1st to 4th

b) two spells from the higher possible lvl (as per WR, but with a lower spell lvl cap)

 

 

Other suggested new potions

As Ardanis says Potion of Restoration isn't the best idea ever (though it's still the best we could find right now), thus let's see alternative solutions...

 

Greater Heroism: do we really want another +x hit/dmg potion? I'd say no.

 

Oil of Impact: I suppose you're suggesting this over Potion of Explosion, am I wrong? Anyway, I'm not sure how it would work on some weapons. Having xbows fire "detonating bolts" may be fine, but having your sword trigger a small fireball on each hit isn't great imo.

 

Potion of Clairvoyance: isn't this covered by Potion of Perception?

 

Poison: this is potentially interesting but out of my scope. I prefer this to remain an exclusive domain of the Assassin kit.

 

Holy Water: I've to think a little more on this matter.

 

@Ardanis, are you suggesting to tweak Potion of Firebreath (into cold?) and Oil of Fiery Burning (into acid?) Personally I'm fine with them as they are.

[yarpen]

Point is that even if the chance to detect is 50% you just have to drink two potions (2 party members) and suddenly you have a 100% Detect Illusions (aka True Seeing), while at the same time you're stripping away from thieves one of their most interesting features (not to mention thieves must concentrate to detect, this potion wouldn't even require that).

 

Other players seem to be fine with either solution or prefer PnP Potion of Sight, thus I think I'll opt for it unless someone can convince me that yarpen's suggestion is better.

I've thought that you wanted it to work it as you describe it here. But I meant to:

 

Potion summons invisible Thief with 50 skill points in Detecting Traps. Who detects traps via script. So he has 'Detect Traps' always launched and he walks close to potion drinker.

I think it's much better than auto-detecting traps or having 50% chance for that per round. It detects most of weak traps (usefull) but doesn't touch all of the advanced ones (balanced). I don't think it's a bad solution.

 

Should spells like Magic Missile, Acid Arrow, Flame Arrow, etc. be included?

Certainly not. Also: I hope this potion will have some Dexterity requirement. Maybe 13 - just to not make most clumsy character in game *evade* *evade* ninja, where guys with 18 dexterity cannot even imagine about such a things.

 

And the last thing - isn't making drinker always succseed in Saves vs. Breath better? It halves damage from most of invocation spells so it's a bit more balanced.