IR v4 - list of changes over v3

[Cahir]

Darn seems more and more unlikely that I'll try IR and SR (not to mention KR) on BG(2)EE anytime soon:(

But I hear you guys, I know RL could not make things easy.

 

I still hope to try these mods someday:)

[Salk]

I appreciate very much both messages, Mike1072 and Ardanis. Of course if some of us can be of any help, just ask...

 

Thanks and good luck with everything.

Edited March 14, 2014 by Salk

[Incantatar]

V2 is the current version of IR since 2008. Why not being pragmatic and forget about releasing a full feature version at all? Just release what's there and ask the players who still like to play this mod to look for/fix compatibility issues.

[Cahir]

 

Azlaer's Harp

Special Abilities (three times per day):

Remove Fear

Usable By

Bard

 

Notes: unchanged. Actually I think that being bards already more than able to cast Remove/Resist Fear something can be done to make this instrument more useful. What about using a divine spell?

 

PnP version of this harp (from The Code of Harpers book) removes magically or psionically induced despair, fear, hoplessness and rage within a round of being heard. In addition all charms and mental controls of any sort are blocked (held in abeyance, not ended) in creatures hearing the harp's music. No new charms, suggestions, or mental influences can be laid on beings listening to the harp (even by a bard trying to use the harp for this purpose).

Demi you could easily make this harp more useful using some of these PnP properties.

 

 

Azuredge +3

Combat Abilities:

Disruption: undead creatures must save vs. death or be destroyed

Undead Bane: additional +2 bonus to THAC0 and +8 to damage against undead

Returning: returns to the wielder's hand instantly after an attack is made

THAC0: +1 bonus

Damage: 2d3 + 1

Damage type (melee): slashing

Damage type (thrown): missile

 

Notes: removed the "only good characters" usability restriction, the disruption effect had a -4 penalty on its save to avoid the effect but it was way too powerful imo.

 

If you ever think of tweaking Azuredge a little, PnP version (from The City of Splendors book) have also a nice property that creatures damaged by it cannot be regenerated save normal rest. Very handy vs. trolls

Edited May 31, 2014 by Cahir

[kreso]

If you ever think about tweaking Azuredge a little, PnP version (from The City of Splendors book) have also a nice property that creatures damaged by it cannot be regenerated save normal rest. Very handy vs. trolls

 

+1. Great way to make this weapon useful even against non-Undead.

[Cahir]

 

 

Taragarth +2

Combat Abilities:

Acidic: creatures struck suffer 1D4 additional points of acid damage

THAC0: +2 bonus

Damage: 1D10 + 2

 

Notes: previously unused (except by UB). I've restored its PnP background and based on it I've decided for a classic anti-troll weapon.

 

It's PnP background says also that Taragarth gives its bearer protection from fire like ring of fire resistance. It could be worth adding +20% fire resistance to it, cause now it looks rather unimpressive.

According to PnP description it also gives protection from ESP and detection spells (such as know alignment spell), but it could be to much juice for it.

[kreso]

Slightly off current topic, but:

Crossbows now set movement speed to zero. This doesn't really look nice. I'd prefer "pause caster" instead of being unable to move.

Second, the effect unfortunately triggers only if crossbow wielder succesfully hits the target.

How about making crossbows grant a large THAC0 bonus to compensate for pause not triggering after a miss (afaik with a critical miss you loose initiative for the round anyway) - even when used in medieval times they were much more accurate than a bow, and unlike their predecessors, little to no training was required to be accurate while shooting bolts.

For balancing, pause used could be longer (4 for light/6 for heavy crossbows or similar). This would make them rather unique (superb THAC0/damage, but if the enemy closes on you you're dead).

 

In similar line, I'd keep shortbows rate of fire same as vanilla (2x round) since thieves suffer very badly from that -1/2 apr nerf (max 2 attacks when hasted, which is pathetic in BG2/ToB). For compensation, they could incur a -2 damage penalty.

[Demivrgvs]

Azlaer's Harp

Demi you could easily make this harp more useful using some of these PnP properties.

Yep, I do had in mind to work again on this item, mostly because I think these magical musical instruments should give something unique to the bard, not just a 1/day use of a spell they already know.

Azuredge +3

If you ever think of tweaking Azuredge a little, PnP version (from The City of Splendors book) have also a nice property that creatures damaged by it cannot be regenerated save normal rest. Very handy vs. trolls

I do tried this out (I think it was for the Werebane silver dagger) and using "immunity to regeneration" on hit didn't worked.

Taragarth +2

It's PnP background says also that Taragarth gives its bearer protection from fire like ring of fire resistance. It could be worth adding +20% fire resistance to it, cause now it looks rather unimpressive.
According to PnP description it also gives protection from ESP and detection spells (such as know alignment spell), but it could be to much juice for it.

This is a very rare case where I didn't followed PnP. Note that IR's Taragarth has a completely new lore compared to vanilla's one (which already wasn't PnP one).

A heavy bastard sword with non-detection makes little sense imo, and fire resistance is almost everywhere.

Xbows & Bows (Weapon Changes)

Slightly off current topic, but:
Crossbows now set movement speed to zero. This doesn't really look nice. I'd prefer "pause caster" instead of being unable to move.
Second, the effect unfortunately triggers only if crossbow wielder succesfully hits the target.
How about making crossbows grant a large THAC0 bonus to compensate for pause not triggering after a miss (afaik with a critical miss you loose initiative for the round anyway) - even when used in medieval times they were much more accurate than a bow, and unlike their predecessors, little to no training was required to be accurate while shooting bolts.
For balancing, pause used could be longer (4 for light/6 for heavy crossbows or similar). This would make them rather unique (superb THAC0/damage, but if the enemy closes on you you're dead).

First of all I'm so glad you got your hand on the beta, so I have at least some feedback about these semi-secret change. It was a last second addition before closing v4 five months ago (I expected the official release to follow shortly back then). In exchange for this "nerf" we heavily buffed xbow's speed factor ever (from worst to best).

 

The idea behind it is kinda clear I guess (you stay put for 1-2 seconds to reload), and in theory IR's xbows already have superior thac0 too. It's only +1 yes, but more than that seems overboard within BG1 imo considering IR also raised bolt's dmg from 1d8 to 1d10.

 

Two questions:

- does the "only trigger on a successful hit" ruin too much the concept behind his change?

- what's the conceptual or technical advantage of using "pause caster" instead of "no movement rate"?

 

In similar line, I'd keep shortbows rate of fire same as vanilla (2x round) since thieves suffer very badly from that -1/2 apr nerf (max 2 attacks when hasted, which is pathetic in BG2/ToB). For compensation, they could incur a -2 damage penalty.

Mmm...within v4 we tried to give shortbows a bit more advantage in terms of speed factor (widening the gap between short and long bow), and we cannot nerf shortbow dmg imo considering it's already 1d6 (no STR bonus).

 

The problem is that +1 apr is extremely powerful both in BG1 (where hit chance is a problem, and 2x attacks mahes a HUGE difference) and late BG2 (where you have have tons of "on hit" effects that would trigger way more often because of this). I had a in-depth topic on this matter somewhere in this forum. Short story, without a drawback a full 2 apr is really OP (it's math, not an opinion), and your suggested one is not viable imo.

[kreso]

Two questions:

- does the "only trigger on a successful hit" ruin too much the concept behind his change?

- what's the conceptual or technical advantage of using "pause caster" instead of "no movement rate"?

ad1) So-so. Sometimes (think 3 Ghouls aproaching you in BG1) it's better to miss and retreat, than hit and be stuck in one place.

ad2) "no movement rate" doesn't prevent "walking animation", and it really doesn't resemble "reloading the crossbow".

I'd simply say it looks bad. Honestly, I was expecting you'd use "Pause caster" opcode in the first place, when I read about proposed changes for v4.

 

For shortbows - shoudn't a class like thieves (who are most likely to use SB) be all about "on-hit" effects anyway? One can make a fighter with GM in shortbows or longbows - imo long bow guy would (especially at higher levels) still do much more damage (+1/2 apr doesn't exactly do much at high levels, where one rather prefers raw damage output)

 

What I don't really like about 3/2 apr is:

a) Haste doesn't add +1, but only +1/2 attack

b) Light crossbow of speed is so superior to any shortbow in BG1 that it's darn pointless to use them (more attacks, better damage - with haste, a thief attacks 33% faster (3 vs 2 apr), and does 40% more damage per hit using it.)

 

In math terms -

+1 shortbow does (1d6+1)x2 in a round, assuming both attacks hit (hasted.) Max 14 damage.

Light crossbow of speed, equally enchanted (+1) does (1d10+1)x3 (hasted). Max 33 damage, which is more than a 100% damage increase.

Not to mention that on-hit effects such as poison or lightning damage from bolts is more likely to take effects, and any buff (be it Bless, Chant, or wearing Bracers of Archery) push the difference even more on x-bow side.

 

Even w/o Light Crossbow of speed or Haste into account, x-bows are still superior.

A regular light crossbow does 1d10 x 2 in 2 rounds. Max damage - 20.

Regular shortbow - 1d6 x3 in 2 rounds. Max damage - 18.

 

Imo, there's really no comparison in between them, especially in BG1.

 

 

c) darts are even worse in that comparison than Light x bow of speed. You get double apr when compared to Shortbow, with either bleeding or stunning effect.

[Ardanis]

I don't think there's a way to fix the reload on misses

 

Pausing effectively caps the crossbow rate of fire at 2-3-6 per round, depending on the duration. Are we certain it's something we want?

 

 

c) darts are even worse in that comparison than Light x bow of speed. You get double apr when compared to Shortbow, with either bleeding or stunning effect.

 

I still haven't played a darter to make a proper judgement about this weapon class, but darts have nearly non-existent damage and short range. And enchanted darts tend to run out quickly, never mind their price.

[kreso]

Pausing effectively caps the crossbow rate of fire at 2-3-6 per round, depending on the duration. Are we certain it's something we want?

 

I'd vote yes. While I can envision Whirlwind with bows (Legolas) I can't really see crossbows as a fast reload weapon.

 

 

I still haven't played a darter to make a proper judgement about this weapon class, but darts have nearly non-existent damage and short range. And enchanted darts tend to run out quickly, never mind their price.

It's not about the damage, but the status effects they inflict - one can find more darts of stunning/bleeding in BG1 than he can spend anyway.

Given the effect (save vs spell or be stunned), what you have with Darts of stunning is a ranged Celestial Fury, with extra THAC0 from dexterity, which attacks with a minimum of 3 attacks per round.

I usually have Jaheira using them, the damage isn't that bad with specialization (+2 damage per dart, basically a 100% damage increase).

The price and the number aren't really an issue imo - stun, switch to normal/returning, rinse&repeat. Among people playing No-Reloads, darts are usually the favoured weapon of all solo attempts.

[Demivrgvs]

Weapon Changes

What I don't really like about (shortbows) 3/2 apr is:
a) Haste doesn't add +1, but only +1/2 attack
b) Light crossbow of speed is so superior to any shortbow in BG1 that it's darn pointless to use them

a) I wasn't aware of this issue back then, but it's more an issue of Haste itself considering it is kinda standard within BG to have 3/2 or 5/2 apr depedning on character level and proficiency.
b) Again, this is a "problem" specific to LXbow of Speed rather than "bows vs xbows". This unique xbow actually has a kinda big feature which completely counters what is supposed to keep xbow power in check (lower apr) and may not be balanced to what magical unique bows offer within BG1.

On a side note, you should have not compared it to a plain short bow +1, but at least to Tuigan or a plain +3 (because Speed itself has a +2 value).

Overall I think the problem here eventually is the LXbow of Speed, not the whole weapon class.

Even w/o Light Crossbow of speed or Haste into account, x-bows are still superior.
A regular light crossbow does 1d10 x 2 in 2 rounds. Max damage - 20.
Regular shortbow - 1d6 x3 in 2 rounds. Max damage - 18.

Imo, there's really no comparison in between them, especially in BG1.

This is expected. Base proficiency and basic ammo favor xbows, higher proficiency and magical ammo favor bows.

Add there even just ammo +1 or specialization (aka +2 dmg) and the short bow takes the lead. Not to mention a single miss with a xbow reduces your total dmg by 50%, while the bow loses only 33% dmg from a missed shot.

c) darts are even worse in that comparison than Light x bow of speed. You get double apr when compared to Shortbow, with either bleeding or stunning effect.
...
e.g. Given the effect (save vs spell or be stunned), what you have with Darts of stunning is a ranged Celestial Fury, with extra THAC0 from dexterity, which attacks with a minimum of 3 attacks per round.

I always said darts are amazing and that their 3 apr makes them hard to balance in case of "on hit effects" (e.g. Assasin's poison), but I can assure you most players still believe darts suck and there were quite a few requests to buff them. Balancing everything is harder than it seems, and often times it's not easy to determine the objective "power lvl" of something because of the huge amount of variables (e.g. class, ammo type, added effects, unique variants, circumstances, etc.).

Pausing effectively caps the crossbow rate of fire at 2-3-6 per round, depending on the duration. Are we certain it's something we want?

I'd vote yes. While I can envision Whirlwind with bows (Legolas) I can't really see crossbows as a fast reload weapon.

The cosmetic issue of movement0 really irks me. Capping xbow rate of fire may not be so bad (PnP generally cap it to 1 without multiple dedicated feats), but I have to think more about it. Mmm...

[leania]

Well, I know the discussion is very important to lead the balancing issues to better way, but it seems to delay the release imo. We've already been discussing a lot over years, haven't we?

 

I think we would be better to let Demi focus on releasing the new version... Hmmm.

[kreso]

most players still believe darts suck

Give them 1d2 +1 damage.

 

On a side note, you should have not compared it to a plain short bow +1, but at least to Tuigan or a plain +3 (because Speed itself has a +2 value).

 

Overall I think the problem here eventually is the LXbow of Speed, not the whole weapon class.

 

There's no +3 or Tugian in BG1, but even if there was, LCoS tops them both.

I do agree that it's LCoS that's the problem - however, since (I hope) "reload time" will get to IR4, one can make this weapon less overwhelming while still keeping it unique. Given that it's description hints to "Fast reload" one could make the reload time for this weapon much shorter (i.e. -2 as compered to other light crossbows), to still keep it useful, but not as overly powerful as it is now.

 

 

Well, I know the discussion is very important to lead the balancing issues to better way, but it seems to delay the release imo. We've already been discussing a lot over years, haven't we?

 

I think we would be better to let Demi focus on releasing the new version... Hmmm.

[Demivrgvs]

Well, I know the discussion is very important to lead the balancing issues to better way, but it seems to delay the release imo. We've already been discussing a lot over years, haven't we?

 

I think we would be better to let Demi focus on releasing the new version... Hmmm.

Just so you know, any discussion we might have is not going to delay the release because I'm fine releasing it as it is. Release date is not based on my stuff because I'm fine tweaking a bunch of specific items later via hotfixes. As soon as Arda and Mike say they are ready, so am I.

 

Xbows vs Bows (Weapon Changes)

I think this matters probably deserves its own topic where we can discuss base weapon stats and suggested tweaks regardless of IR version. I will probably create it sooner or later.

 

Pausing effectively caps the crossbow rate of fire at 2-3-6 per round, depending on the duration. Are we certain it's something we want?

Now that you mention it, isn't it exactly what we wanted to achieve when we were discussing the whole "xbows should not go beyond specialization, they should be better than bows for non-trained users but weapon masters should clearly perform better with bows, bla bla"?

 

Within PnP xbow's apr is capped to 1 without multiple feats, so we would not do something so strange either imo. Capping rate of fire to 2-3 apr is not going to affect a proficient user or even a specialized warrior, it would simply make bows the clear best choice for mastery and Whirlwind Attacks.

 

Short story: I'd suggest 1-2 seconds pause for light xbows, and 1 sec more for heavy ones. Both keep v4's speed factor 0 (or was it 1?).

 

@Arda, what do you think?

 

On a side note, Kreso's videos kinda convinced me that "pause" would also look much better in terms of "animation", and you know how much I value the cosmetic aspect (the only reason I still don't like the wonderful Shield Bash stuff you coded)