IR v4 - list of changes over v3

[Salk]

I practically like all changes, especially the pause for reload for crossbows.

 

About the slings: what about allowing only for half of the strenght bonus (rounded down)? In this way, the sling that allows for full bonus would still have a reason to exist and at the same time, all slings would potentially have a little extra kick.

 

About the long sword as weapon of choice: I agree with you, Demi but in the end, in a typical game those who use long swords are usually warriors while thieves rely more on short swords and daggers. So it's fine.

Edited December 7, 2013 by Salk

[Jarno Mikkola]

Dagger vs. Short Sword vs. Long Sword:

Now, some of long swords penalties are "situational" (e.g. not all characters need to backstab or dual wield), and if the wielder is a warrior with high apr long sword's speed factor quickly lowers itself (from 5 to 2.5 with 2 apr, 1.67 with 3 apr - almost as fast as a thief with daggers), and thac0 against armors shouldn't be a problem (even more so if the warrior is a fighter class with weapon mastery). Conclusion: on paper the long sword is indeed inferior in terms of global stats (tons of drawbacks for just +1 dmg), making it a poor choice for a non-warrior imo, but it might still be a valid option for a warrior, is it?

Well, I'll say one thing, I look at the Item Index, so take this as out dated as that is.

... it's particular that you have a one +5 dagger and one +5 long sword.... I would say that it should be easier to make a better enhanced larger items than smaller ... now the Short sword can be an exception if it's used by a thief, but the Sword of Mask could still be a +3 and then update to +5... but still, you could cut down some of the enhancement levels with 1. It would help the better monsters be immune to the small-er weapons, to balance out the items.

 

Ranged Weapons:

Nice, approved !

 

About the slings: what about allowing only for half of the strenght bonus (rounded down)? In this way, the sling that allows for full bonus would still have a reason to exist and at the same time, all slings would potentially have a little extra kick.

I don't think that's doable, as the item is flagged as one or two handed(x1.5) and with or without the str bonus. Well, unless you go and play in BGEE's. And I am still unsure if it's there even. Edited December 7, 2013 by Jarno Mikkola

[lynx]

Why are slings so slow now? It's really not so difficult to reload one compared to a bow.

 

WRT swords, I agree with krešimir(?).

[kreso]

agree with krešimir(?).

No.

[Ardanis]

Sling

About the slings: what about allowing only for half of the strenght bonus (rounded down)? In this way, the sling that allows for full bonus would still have a reason to exist and at the same time, all slings would potentially have a little extra kick.

Can't be done, BGEE or not

 

Maybe add a small concussion chance to all bullets? Like 15% to stun for a couple of seconds, possibly with save vs death severe enough for it to be somewhat viable in early ToB. Perhaps -4?

[yarpen]

I've thought about an alternative method to create a huge difference between light weapons and heavy weapons. I think it'd be possible to do in BG:EE.

Light Weapons don't gain bonuses from Strength. They gain them from Dexterity.

Heavy Weapons gain bonuses from Strength.

 

That would make few things happen.

- Dexterity-based Warriors.

- Better Thieves.

 

While you gain Attack Rolls (small) / Damage Rolls (large) bonuses from Strenght, exceptional Dexterity would grant Weapon Speed (Small) / Attack Rolls (large) boosts.

[Salk]

Can't be done, BGEE or not

 

Maybe add a small concussion chance to all bullets? Like 15% to stun for a couple of seconds, possibly with save vs death severe enough for it to be somewhat viable in early ToB. Perhaps -4?

 

Well, if it can't be done, it can't be done.

 

I am not so sure about adding a stun effect chance though...

 

Please guys remind me... In the vanilla BG, which ranged weapons have STR bonus?

Edited December 7, 2013 by Salk

[kreso]

In the vanilla BG....

I know of 2 people playing that.

[Demivrgvs]

Slings

Why are slings so slow now? It's really not so difficult to reload one compared to a bow.

"Reloading" a sling doesn't require much indeed, but firing it does as you have to swing it a couple of times to give the bullet some kinetic energy. Low speed factor is there to represent its low "initiative" and fire rate.

 

About the slings: what about allowing only for half of the strenght bonus (rounded down)? In this way, the sling that allows for full bonus would still have a reason to exist and at the same time, all slings would potentially have a little extra kick.

Can't be done, BGEE or not

 

Maybe add a small concussion chance to all bullets? Like 15% to stun for a couple of seconds, possibly with save vs death severe enough for it to be somewhat viable in early ToB. Perhaps -4?

Personally I don't like this idea, I know I'm exaggerating but it sounds like we turn each sling into a lesser Celestial Fury.

 

In terms of semi-realistic representation the only advantage I can imagine over a short bow is the range, because in terms of accuracy and fire rate there's really no match imo, and slings are actually much harder to master.

 

That being said, I do think it is often underestimated how useful it can be to wield a shield while using a sling, especially within IR. Even if a ranged character benefit less often from shield's AC than a melee one, he pretty much gets twice as much while equipped effects compared to a character wielding a bow or xbow, and having Shield of Harmony's immunities or things like that isn't a small feature imo.

 

Please guys remind me... In the vanilla BG, which ranged weapons have STR bonus?

Between BG1, BGE, ToB, BGEE and BG2EE I've lost track of these things. I think BG1 had slings with STR bonus, then it lost it until BGEE or BG2EE. Bows and xbows never had it, throws axes/hammers had it in all BG versions imo, and I think darts/daggers never had it.

 

Short Sword

It seems the consensus it to leave this weapon type unchanged.

 

Weapon Finesse

I've thought about an alternative method to create a huge difference between light weapons and heavy weapons. I think it'd be possible to do in BG:EE.

Light Weapons don't gain bonuses from Strength. They gain them from Dexterity.

Afaik it's not possible, am I missing an externalization or opcode change?

[Ardanis]

Sling

I'm quite fine with one-handed bonus as the only advantage.

 

Adding STR bonus is fine either, but I'd compensate it with thaco penalty then. Note that BGEE has new flag that applies STR bonus to damage only.

 

Celestial Fury had crossed my mind as well... not much to add there, other than that in some games slings do have small knockout probability.

 

 

Short Sword vs Dagger

I once had suggested to add +1 backstab multiplier to daggers...

 

Well. We do have some other clearly inferior weapon types, e.g. clubs and darts.

 

 

I've thought about an alternative method to create a huge difference between light weapons and heavy weapons. I think it'd be possible to do in BG:EE.

Light Weapons don't gain bonuses from Strength. They gain them from Dexterity.

Not yet anyway, according to my knowledge. Edited December 8, 2013 by Ardanis

[yarpen]

I once had suggested to add +1 backstab multiplier to daggers...

Dual wielding Dagger Assassin with over 9000 backstab modifier and Assassination online. Scary.

I'd either grant them Armor Piercing ability (+1 bonus to ThaC0 against armored opponents) or Increased critical strike range. Both fit flavorwise and aren't creating yet another troublesome mechanic.

[Salk]

Well, let's say that if slings benefit from STR bonus, I am left wondering why other hurled weapons like darts and daggers are left out.

 

Throwing axes are perhaps more justified in having it because of the size of the weapon itself, which could do considerably more damage if thrown by a very strong person. Same thing for spears, of course.

 

In the end, in my opinion, we should not allow for STR bonus in the case of smaller, thrown weapons like bullets (sling), darts and daggers while it'd make sense to have it for axes and spears.

[Demivrgvs]

Sling

I'm quite fine with one-handed bonus as the only advantage.

I'm probably fine too.

 

In the end, in my opinion, we should not allow for STR bonus in the case of smaller, thrown weapons like bullets (sling), darts and daggers while it'd make sense to have it for axes and spears.

That's how things work right now within IR.

 

Short Sword vs Dagger

Well. We do have some other clearly inferior weapon types, e.g. clubs and darts.

Well, in theory none of them is completely inferior:

- clubs deals only 1 point less of damage compared to hammers, but they are both faster and lighter (not that I would dual wield clubs or backstab with them, but the feature is there). Not to mention that classes such as the druid (mages too within KR) don't have access to hammers/maces, making the club the only valid option for them.

- darts have 3 apr, thus they do have some purposes, such as being used with Assassin's poisons

 

The dagger is slightly inferior to the SS (both are very fast, thus dagger's speed isn't as appealing as the sword's higher damage), but I would not say it's clearly inferior. My main issue actually isn't between dagger and SS, but between SS and Long Sword, with the latter having tons of small disadvantages for just +1 dmg.

 

I once had suggested to add +1 backstab multiplier to daggers...

Dual wielding Dagger Assassin with over 9000 backstab modifier and Assassination online. Scary.

Yeah, that's the only reason I'm against it.

 

I'd either grant them Armor Piercing ability (+1 bonus to ThaC0 against armored opponents) or Increased critical strike range. Both fit flavorwise and aren't creating yet another troublesome mechanic.

The former is pretty much what I suggested (if we make SS use slashing type the dagger gains the advantage of better thaco against armors), the latter has the very same problem of increased backstab multiplier. Edited December 8, 2013 by Demivrgvs

[lynx]

even vanilla bg2 has an option for items to have strength bonus and I remember a sling using it. Giant's sling or something in that domain.

 

Compared to other ranged weapons, max weapon speed is really silly for slings. You gave the bows a range from 6-10 and using a sling is easier than a composite bow.

[Ardanis]

Swords

My main issue actually isn't between dagger and SS, but between SS and Long Sword, with the latter having tons of small disadvantages for just +1 dmg.

We could try to add Parry to long swords and staves (+1 vs melee).