SR Revised V1.3.900 (2022 August 8th)

[subtledoctor]

1 hour ago, Guest Shadow said:

[gibberlings] are dangerous only to complete and utter noobs. And even then, pretty much anyone with half a brain can deal with them

I don't think you understood what I said. Maybe language difference. At any rate, you're talking about a 1st-level spell, and you want it to be good in late-game play? It summons 1HD creatures - it's not supposed to be good. It's a 1st-level summon, something that doesn't even exist by default. A 1st-level spell should not be summoning things that can be effective in interrupting spellcasters etc.

1 hour ago, Guest Shadow said:

So, if this spell isnt kept like that as somekind of homage

Yeah dude, it's the weakest spell level, added by the mod where there was no such spell before. It was 100% included solely as an homage, not as a serious tactical aid for winning fights. What I'm saying is, that's okay.

1 hour ago, Guest Shadow said:

[otyughs] are ok for trash mobs, but... and we have actual good summons at that lvl - Death Knight, Djinni, Efreeti

I don't know what trash mobs you're talking about, it seems like you are just talking from reading the descriptions or testing the spells out  bit. I'm saying I just played ToB and this spell was constantly in the rotation, and the otyughs were often quite useful. (And no I wasn't wasting 7th level spell slots on trash mobs, I don't sleep every 3 minutes to restore spells.) They weren't killing serious enemies for me... but that's not what you use them for. They were effective at harassing enemies, which was useful. There are three of them after all, compared to just one djinn/efreet/elemental/etc, and there are plenty of circumstances in which taking up more space can be tactically advantageous.

By contrast, I found djinn and efreet to be pretty fragile - you only summon one, and they can rarely do any real damage to the enemy, and they tend to get killed in a round or two and then you're back without a summoned ally and so what was the point of taking a round to cast the summoning spell? (Death knights are of course a different story, they are the best summon in the whole game, possibly even better than my non-vorpal planetars, which is why I don't like that spell.)

I also think hobgoblins are pretty weak - they tend to get shredded very quickly. I don't dislike that spell only because they are sapient, I also think it is one of the weakest MS spells relative to its level. I never found myself bothering to memorize it. (Of course there is a lot of competition for 3rd-level slots...)

2 hours ago, Guest Shadow said:

you have your own ver of SR with blackjack and... so, why are you even care

Uh, no? Not sure what you are talking about there. But just chatting, brainstorming about ideas. Didn't mean to put you on the defensive.

[Quester]

Guest Shadow: For item scarcity, I use Scales of Balance's component "Replace Enchanted Equipment with Mastercraft", plus Unique Artifacts:

https://github.com/BGforgeNet/bg2-uniqueartifacts

[Bartimaeus]

3 hours ago, subtledoctor said:

I also think hobgoblins are pretty weak - they tend to get shredded very quickly. I don't dislike that spell only because they are sapient, I also think it is one of the weakest MS spells relative to its level. I never found myself bothering to memorize it. (Of course there is a lot of competition for 3rd-level slots...)

It should be noted that SRR switches hobgoblins to MS2 (while ever so slightly weakening them so that they can better match BG1's hobgoblin stats), while the slimes are beefed up and go to MS3.

SR MS3:

Spoiler

5th : 2 hobgoblins

7th : 3 hobgoblins

9th+ : 3 hobgoblins, 1 shaman

Hobgoblin Archer (3 Hit Dice):

STR 11, DEX 14, CON 13, INT 8, WIS 10, CHA 8; AL Lawful Evil

HP 24, AC 5, THAC0 17, Saving Throws 13/15/14/16/16

2 Attacks Per Round, 1d6+3 Piercing Damage (Arrows)

or 1 Attack Per Round, 1d10+2 Slashing Damage (Bastard Sword)

Hobgoblin Shaman (4 Hit Dice):

STR 13, DEX 11, CON 15, INT 9, WIS 14, CHA 9; AL Lawful Evil

HP 36, AC 5, THAC0 16, Saving Throws 9/13/12/15/14

1 Attack Per Round, 1d8+1 Slashing Damage (Long Sword +1)

Memorized Spells:

1. Armor of Faith, Bless, Cure Light Wounds (x2), Resist Fear

2. Chant, Hold Person, Silence

vs. SRR MS2:

Spoiler

3rd: 2 hobgoblin archers
5th: 3 hobgoblin archers
7th: 2 hobgoblin archers, 1 hobgoblin shaman

Hobgoblin Archer (2 HD):
 ST14, DE10, CO12, IN8, WI10, CH8
 HP 16, AC 3, THAC0 18, APR 2
 1D6 + 2 Missile (Short Bow & Arrow)
 2D4 Slashing (Bastard Sword)
 Saving Throws 14/16/15/17/17, AL LE
 SR 0%, CR 0%, PR 0%, MR 0%
 FR 0%, CR 0%, ER 0%, AR 0%

Hobgoblin Shaman (4 HD):
 ST14, DE11, CO15, IN9, WI12, CH9
 HP 36, AC 2, THAC0 17, APR 1
 1D6 + 2 Crushing (Mace +1)
 Saving Throws 9/13/12/15/14, AL LE
 SR 0%, CR 0%, PR 0%, MR 0%
 FR 0%, CR 0%, ER 0%, AR 0%

Known Spells:
 1° Armor of Faith, Bless, Cure Light Wounds (x2), Resist Fear
 2° Chant, Hold Person, Silence

SR MS2:

Spoiler

3rd : 2 green slimes

5th : 3 green slimes

7th+ : 4 green slimes

Green Slime (2 Hit Dice):

STR 14, DEX 9, CON -, INT 3, WIS 3, CHA 3; AL Neutral

HP 16, AC 10, THAC0 15, Saving Throws 13/15/13/17/15

1 Attack Per Round, 2d4 Acid Damage (Pseudopod)

Special Qualities:

Immune to backstab

Immune to charm, confusion, disease, hold, poison, sleep & stun, effects

Electrical Resistance 100%, Acid Resistance 50%

Missile Resistance 90%

vs. SRR MS3:

Spoiler

5th: 2 gray oozes
7th: 3 gray oozes
9th: 2 gray oozes, 1 ochre jelly

Gray Ooze (3 HD):
 ST14, DE10, CO-, IN3, WI3, CH3
 HP 30, AC 8, THAC0 17, APR 1
 2D8 Acid (Pseudopod)
 Saving Throws 11/13/12/13/14, AL TN
 SR 0%, CR 0%, PR 0%, MR 0%
 FR 100%, CR 100%, ER 0%, AR 0%

Special Characteristics:
 Magic Resistance: 100%
 Protected Against: Backstabs, Disease, Level Drain, Petrification, Poison, and Stun
 Mind Shield: conferred protection against many forms of mind-affecting magic, such as charm, command, confusion, emotion, domination, fear, feeblemind, hold, sleep, stun, psionics, and other similar effects

Ochre Jelly (5 HD):
 ST14, DE10, CO-, IN3, WI3, CH3
 HP 42, AC 4, THAC0 15, APR 1
 3D4 Acid (Pseudopod +1)
 Saving Throws 10/12/11/12/13, AL TN
 SR 0%, CR 0%, PR 0%, MR 100%
 FR 0%, CR 50%, ER 0%, AR 0%

Special Characteristics:
 Magic Resistance: 10%
 Protected Against: Backstabs, Disease, Level Drain, Petrification, Poison, and Stun
 Mind Shield: conferred protection against many forms of mind-affecting magic, such as charm, command, confusion, emotion, domination, fear, feeblemind, hold, sleep, stun, psionics, and other similar effects

Gibberlings at MS1: I don't really much love the argument that just because it's level 1, it has to be terrible. A number of level 1 spells remain pretty useful for quite some time, and gibberlings...you know, they've got so very little going for them past the first few levels because of lack of pretty much anything useful about them except for being a literal 1 or 2 round distraction that will be more or less cut down instantly by any fighter (it doesn't help that all the MS spells take a full round to cast). That can have its use, sure, but it's...not great. However, I'm thinking about the substitute of kobolds now, and it really seems like that's stepping a bit on MS2's hobgoblin archers' toes, and I'm kinda liking the idea of converting them to mutated gibberlings with increased levels instead. Something with more utility like the hobgoblins would be nice, but it is, after all, still just a level 1 spell - being just a little bit more substantial of a distraction is not a bad start, in any case.

Edited April 7, 2022 by Bartimaeus

[Guest Shadow]

4 hours ago, subtledoctor said:

I have played Ascension. I did not see these drakes that I have read about. So they are clearly not from Ascension. What I said was, I have not played the fight that has those drakes. 

Tougher Abazigal component of it. Mb moved to SCS in later ver.

5 hours ago, Bartimaeus said:

and unlike the player, enemies do not have any ability to protect themselves against it.

Emm, dont clerics use Negative Plane Protection or smth like that? Anyway, i was only saying that IF the player want to abuse smth - then level drain wouldnt be the biggest problem, from my pov. Also, if memory serves, in Kingmaker there are a craptons of such stuff - both from enemies and the player. Could be irritating, i suppose. But, as its already isnt exactly pnp and videogame - what stops from just nerfing said drain a bit - saves and etc? Cool summon for the player with nerfed drain to balance things - all happy, no?

 

5 hours ago, Bartimaeus said:

unite atweaks' elementals with SRR

Cool, but i wonder if the bugs with elem trasforms for aTweaks are solved as there were some reported. Similar question about SCS and pnp fiends.

5 hours ago, Bartimaeus said:

I don't think I've ever played it either

Well, its worth to see it at least once, esp with combination of the two mods i mentioned + mb Turnabout to the mix.

5 hours ago, Bartimaeus said:

Spoiler

If i understood correctly - its a list for possible summons. If so, i will just edit it and left those what seems to be ok, in my opinion.

Horrors/guards (technically constructs)
Mists

Umber hulks
Gibberlings (mutated for upgraded option?) - If gibs absolutely must to stay... - mutated/deseased or smth like that. Even then, a crappy spell in comparison to others.
Monstrous animals (?) - why not? Seems totally ok for me.

Minotaurs (too intelligent?) - who cares, would be ok and even fun summons.  The same goes for the whole group below.
Tasloi (too intelligent?)
Xvarts (too intelligent?)
Gnolls/flinds (too intelligent?)
Ogres/ogrillons/half-ogres (too intelligent?)
Hobgoblins (too intelligent?)
Kobolds (too intelligent?)
Orcs/orogs (too intelligent?)
Goblins (too intelligent?)

Yuan-tis (way too intelligent?) - hell YEAH, if the player could get some of those, it would be awesome.
Wyverns (too large, maybe use the baby animation even for the adults?) - try it, why not?
Drakes (too large?) - mb, but...we all know that dragonrelated stuff is just... you know. I would even tolerate pretty much any problems, if the player would get dragon summon. I still remember the one from Hordes of Underdark, even if it wasnt very op.

Golems (technically a construct; steps on toes of golem manual; difficult to balance player vs. enemy due to weapon immunity?) - Golem manual? You mean that mod about golems construction for player or ? About immunity - trash mobs aside - in modded game would be a lot enemies with weapons and also spells that harm them, so... not so much of hit to balance. Summoning golems feels strange, however, even if i wouldnt mind to have some as summons.
Beholders (too heavily scripted) - true, but they are interesting + with SCS and telekinetic ray activated, it could be very funny, if used vs player. Its a pity we cant have lesser one as familiar, heh. But, realistically, yes very problematic summon.
Wolfweres/werewolves (abuseable?) - just move them at proper lvl and its done. I dont see a problem here at all.
Mindflayer (abuseable?) - mb, IF the player decide to, but they are kinda cool + used vs player as summon, so we could see them more often - more varienty to encounters is always good. So, mb ok as somewhat high lvl summon and depends on their type.
 

...

Fiends: would be nice to have any of them. Succubus/Cambions the most, probably. Btw, in bg 2 should exist Marilith creature file, it seems. So, if we could get them as summons that would be super I also remember that some mods use them.
Demon wraiths
Succubus
Cambions
Imps

Undead: all good. What happened to wraiths? Are they are going to be removed or smth?
Shadows
Ghasts/ghouls
Skeletons
Skeleton warriors
Zombies
Mummies
Vampires (abuseable!) - nerf their drain a bit and all could be happy. I mean, if im not mistaken, summon isnt the same vamp you could meet ingame, so nerfing drain shouldnt affect them, but would allow cool summon for undeads.
Banshees (what abilities do these things even have outside of their wails?) - The mere sight of one causes fear, unless a successful saving throw vs. spell is rolled. Those who fail must flee in terror for 10 rounds and are 50% likely to drop any items they were carrying in their hands + wail. All i could find quckly about their abilities. So, not very good canddate for summon as too op for low and mb mid lvl and too useless at high, i think.

 

Also - NPC item changes of IRR would be nice to have as optional (looked at options in setting and it doesnt seem to be here) - the temptation is kinda strong. Like Anomen, never use him, but now i can have his shield? Yes, kinda wrong forum, but its your mod, if not mistaken. Sorry for a little offtopic.

[Guest Shadow]

3 hours ago, Quester said:

Guest Shadow: For item scarcity, I use Scales of Balance's component "Replace Enchanted Equipment with Mastercraft", plus Unique Artifacts:

https://github.com/BGforgeNet/bg2-uniqueartifacts

Thank you for the link. Enchanted means weapons, i take it? Its not much of a problem as SCS and IR/IRR also does that, if not mistaken. And its even better in SCS or IR/IRR as their mastercraft shouldnt work on targets that is immune to normal weapons vs masterwork weapons from Scales that, according to readme, could damage immune to normal weapons targets.

5 hours ago, subtledoctor said:

I don't think you understood what I said. Maybe language difference. At any rate, you're talking about a 1st-level spell, and you want it to be good in late-game play? It summons 1HD creatures - it's not supposed to be good. It's a 1st-level summon, something that doesn't even exist by default. A 1st-level spell should not be summoning things that can be effective in interrupting spellcasters etc.

Well, you said that they are dangerous in horde (10 gibs arent exactly a horde. Rest at Firewine Bridge at later lvls - see what i mean by horde), but they are not. If we are talking about summong spell - AI could easily deal with them, just as player can. Depends on the opponent, but still. Not late game, but somewhat usefull up to midlvls. Effective at interrapting? I said some chance - its different things. To be honest, if some spells could be somewhat usefull up to high lvl, why should another spell of the same lvl be in such state. Many other spells were altered, many for the best, but this spell is still here in crappy state.

 

5 hours ago, subtledoctor said:

It was 100% included solely as an homage

Homage could be done via some other things than that. Well, i kinda remembered that now from years back. Whatever, but its a bit irritating.

5 hours ago, subtledoctor said:

I don't know what trash mobs you're talking about, it seems like you are just talking from reading the descriptions or testing the spells out  bit. I'm saying I just played ToB and this spell was constantly in the rotation, and the otyughs were often quite useful. (And no I wasn't wasting 7th level spell slots on trash mobs, I don't sleep every 3 minutes to restore spells.) They weren't killing serious enemies for me... but that's not what you use them for. They were effective at harassing enemies, which was useful. There are three of them after all, compared to just one djinn/efreet/elemental/etc, and there are plenty of circumstances in which taking up more space can be tactically advantageous.

By contrast, I found djinn and efreet to be pretty fragile - you only summon one, and they can rarely do any real damage to the enemy, and they tend to get killed in a round or two and then you're back without a summoned ally and so what was the point of taking a round to cast the summoning spell? (Death knights are of course a different story, they are the best summon in the whole game, possibly even better than my non-vorpal planetars, which is why I don't like that spell.)

I also think hobgoblins are pretty weak - they tend to get shredded very quickly. I don't dislike that spell only because they are sapient, I also think it is one of the weakest MS spells relative to its level. I never found myself bothering to memorize it. (Of course there is a lot of competition for 3rd-level slots...)

Im talking about heavily modded game and i mentioned it several times already. Serious enemies - who? Plus, you missed the part about what mods you used, aside your SR version as it changes all. Have i ever said that they cant be "ok"? In short: 1) i strongly dont like them visualwise, 2) size problems, 3) could easily be abused in some cases, 4) slow. Harrasing with lvl 7 spells...what a waste. Space could be taken via various means and AoE CC to which your party is immune is a better one.

Bc spells, when used accurately, could do a lot. Lighting bolt that bounces and etc. Ofc, to use them efficiently, one needs to know the enemy and use proper summon type/ positioning and etc. Fragile with better AC/ after they self buff? Otyughs - 3 AC, Djinni - AC 0, Efreeti - 2 AC. Now, add to this their defensive and offensive spells that Otyughs dont have, aside melee ones. If they get killed "in round or two" you simply doing smth VERY wrong. Like trying to use them ala dumb meatshield - they are not for that.

Emm, you do realize, that we here are not talking about your ver of SR, but about SRR spells? Its SRR forum after all. And there - hobs at spell lvl 2. For their lvl, after shaman is online, they are ok utilitywise, but could use a bit of boost.

2 hours ago, Bartimaeus said:

but it is, after all, still just a level 1 spell - being just a little bit more substantial of a distraction is not a bad start, in any case.

They even terrible at distraction... Some fast familiars, like cat, could do it WAY better. I killed bears using it as bait. Point is - homage, ok, i remembered it now, so idk if its even worth the effort to waste time on this spell. If you manage to get smth like Marilith online as summon...it would be just epic.

[Bartimaeus]

5 hours ago, Guest Shadow said:

Emm, dont clerics use Negative Plane Protection or smth like that?

Why would enemy clerics ever memorize or use Negative Plane Protection when they're never attacked by vampires? Surely SCS would never have them waste a spell slot on a spell that's only ever useful to the player.

5 hours ago, Guest Shadow said:

then level drain wouldnt be the biggest problem, from my pov

How do you avoid abusing vampires outside of simply never using the spell to summon them? It's not as though you have a choice on whether they level drain, and it's not as though the AI can react to being drained like a player can - they just stand there and take it until they're dust-chunked after a handful of successful hits, and every single level drain makes them more unable to defend themselves and more likely to get drained even more. I'm generally of the opinion that you shouldn't take away cool things from the player because of the possibility of abuse, but the inevitability of abuse due to bad design is a different matter, and giving the player vampires strikes me as very bad design due to the game being unable to cope with it.

Giving their level drain a saving throw is a solution of sorts, but it's a little crude. Of course, I say that knowing the Wraiths of Summon Shadows inexplicably also have a saving throw for their attack, when they also should not...

5 hours ago, Guest Shadow said:

Also - NPC item changes of IRR would be nice to have as optional (looked at options in setting and it doesnt seem to be here) - the temptation is kinda strong. Like Anomen, never use him, but now i can have his shield? Yes, kinda wrong forum, but its your mod, if not mistaken. Sorry for a little offtopic.

Oh man, believe me, I've struggled with this particular aspect of IRR and have gone back and forth many times on it. After all these years, I've made my peace with the player simply having to make their own decision with this in-universe inexplicability, but yeah, I suppose it probably wouldn't be a bad idea to have it optional. I'm currently in a period of inactive development right now anyways, so all of this is really just thoughts for the future, but...

[subtledoctor]

4 hours ago, Guest Shadow said:

Well, you said that they are dangerous in horde

No, I did not. 

4 hours ago, Guest Shadow said:

Plus, you missed the part about what mods you used, aside your SR version as it changes all

I don’t have an “SR version.” I don’t know what you’re talking about dude. AFAIK the 7th-level summon spells are identical in SR and Bart’s SRR. At any rate, I’m not going to engage with your baiting BS anymore. Like sapient “monster” summons, it is not to my taste. 

6 hours ago, Guest Shadow said:

Tougher Abazigal component of it. Mb moved to SCS

Ah right, okay. My recent game that I took through ToB had Ascension installed, but not that component of SCS, so I didn’t see those drakes to evaluate them as a summon. 

7 hours ago, Bartimaeus said:

It should be noted that SRR switches hobgoblins to MS2

True, and I like that change, though getting shamans from a 2nd-level spell is a bit OP. 

Re: the 1st-level version, I just want to strip away all assumptions before assessing, including the idea that there needs to be a 1st-level monster summons at all.* “Monsters” - or aberrations as you say - tend to be  monstrous in being stronger and more dangerous than a natural animal like a deer or a dog. So there just aren’t many 1HD monsters. In very early BG1 gameplay you are most concerned with animals like wolves and bears and humans. (And, of course, the first monster you encounter in the whole game, which is... a gibberling.) I can’t even think of any 1-HD monsters, beyond gibberlings/kobolds/goblins. So it’s slim pickings, and the only non-sapient one of the three is the gibberling so... that would be my choice. But it’s just my opinion! 

As for utility: yes it is just sad melee meat shields, but it is the weakest MS spell so I don’t see that it should have more utility than others. Further, Mr. Shadow shows very little imagination for how it can be used. I played through IWD yesteryear with an infinite-use cantrip that summoned a rabbit for 3 rounds. Just a harmless rabbit with AC7, 4hp, and 20 thac0. But I tell you, through the entirety of that game, that was the single most important spell I used. The ability use that bait to exercise control over the battlefield was more useful than any Meteor Swarm or Horrid Wilting.

*  (Ditto the 9th-level version, when a summoner can instead gate in fiends.)

EDIT - re: vampires, there is also the question of how you instantly summon or create a free-willed undead, and get them to give up their free will and fight and die on your behalf. High-level undead just don’t seem right for battlefield summons; I guess again, to me it boils down to the question “is it sapient?”

But I do agree it would be cool to see zombies and maybe ghouls/ghasts as options, rather than just skeletons. Maybe wights? IWD has those “imbued wights” that can cast magic missile... those could be cool in a summon spell. 

Edited April 7, 2022 by subtledoctor

[Awachi]

The concept of summoning is wack anyway. Teleport in enslaved creatures? Absurd. Instant (relatively) outer plane summons instead of days/weeks long ritual prep and casting following months/years of research? Should just stick to the basic meatshield/fodder role and use whatever CRE fits best. 

Edited April 7, 2022 by Awachi

[Bartimaeus]

2 hours ago, subtledoctor said:

I don’t have an “SR version.” I don’t know what you’re talking about dude. AFAIK the 7th-level summon spells are identical in SR and Bart’s SRR. At any rate, I’m not going to engage with your baiting BS anymore. Like sapient “monster” summons, it is not to my taste. 

I think the intent of that line, although I could be wrong, was to try to understand what version of SR you are using. It doesn't really matter, though, since otyughs are about the same across both versions. I might look into what neo-otyughs' stats look like to see if perhaps it might make sense to beef them up just a little, though, at least as another stopgap since I also found them fairly weak (particularly seeing as "stopgaps" often end up being around for many years, or straight up forever...).

2 hours ago, subtledoctor said:

EDIT - re: vampires, there is also the question of how you instantly summon or create a free-willed undead, and get them to give up their free will and fight and die on your behalf. High-level undead just don’t seem right for battlefield summons; I guess again, to me it boils down to the question “is it sapient?”

I really, really don't like the idea of vampires for a few reasons. Vampires are not just limited sapience monsters like kobolds or xvarts, they're...I mean, they're literally demi-humans but undead, and they play a major story role in BG2, and the whole level draining business, and just... Something about even considering them for Baldur's Gate seems really wrong to me. A couple of other lesser undead/fiend summoning spells would be nice, though...especially undead, because they're usually mindless creatures and don't have the sapience issue that I'm still trying to pretend isn't weird.

2 hours ago, subtledoctor said:

Re: the 1st-level version, I just want to strip away all assumptions before assessing, including the idea that there needs to be a 1st-level monster summons at all.* “Monsters” - or aberrations as you say - tend to be  monstrous in being stronger and more dangerous than a natural animal like a deer or a dog. So there just aren’t many 1HD monsters. In very early BG1 gameplay you are most concerned with animals like wolves and bears and humans. (And, of course, the first monster you encounter in the whole game, which is... a gibberling.) I can’t even think of any 1-HD monsters, beyond gibberlings/kobolds/goblins. So it’s slim pickings, and the only non-sapient one of the three is the gibberling so... that would be my choice. But it’s just my opinion! 

For me, I guess it feels like that if there's a Monster Summoning 2-8, we should have a Monster Summoning 1 and 9. As it is, I think I'm okay with gibberlings at MS1, but I will look into figuring out how I want them to turn into mutated gibberlings...the more spells that at least kind of compete with ye olde Magic Missile at level 1, the better as far as I'm concerned.

P.S. If I could infinitely summon rabbits, I'm sure I'd find ways of abusing the hell out of it too...but MS1 takes up an actual spell slot, which is, uh, well, a bit of a difference, . Also, as a matter of practicality, it's honestly easier/less annoying to use one creature like a rabbit to do aggroing/kiting stuff than trying to manage 5 different gibberlings, whose creature AI also keep trying to make them attack constantly...

Edited April 7, 2022 by Bartimaeus

[subtledoctor]

2 hours ago, Bartimaeus said:

If I could infinitely summon rabbits, I'm sure I'd find ways of abusing the hell out of it too...but MS1 takes up an actual spell slot, which is, uh, well, a bit of a difference, .

Nah, you easily get more level 1 slots than there are fights in a day. I would summon a gibberling every time. Just cast whatever stationary spell - Web, Entangle, Grease, Spike Growth, Ice Storm, etc. Then plop a rabbit or gibberling* right in the middle. Admittedly it works better in IWD and ToB where there are a lot of set-piece battles, while BG1 and BG2 fights are a bit more impromptu. But still, it gives you some control over the environment, which is way more valuable than a Magic Missile.

* (Or kobold, which, let's face it, after a certain point this is all they will be good for as well.)

3 hours ago, Awachi said:

The concept of summoning is wack anyway. Teleport in enslaved creatures? Absurd. Instant (relatively) outer plane summons instead of days/weeks long ritual prep and casting following months/years of research?

Can't disagree... but it's woven into the game, especially at mid/high levels and especially with SCS, which will spam summons against you. Like I say, it's part of how the game's battlefield tactics work.

Though I guess a variant spell mod could try to do some interesting things to replace summons with... I don't know, buffs? If you replaced some summons and it affected SCS too, it could reduce the influence of summons without changing the balance of the game. (My recent game ended up being very summons-heavy, and it wouldn't be a bad idea to try to reduce that.) Certainly I'd like to do something like this for Nishruu... maybe replace them with some kind of anti-magic field, or something.

Or just change the way they work. Give every summon spell two variants: one has an extremely long casting time and is only used out of combat, and gives the summon a long duration (like skeleton warrior duration); but in combat the casting time would be reduced and the duration would be drastically reduced (~5 rounds), and maybe even have the summon itself be weaker. So you could have summons follow you around the dungeon (convenience is good!) but if they fall in battle which they inevitably will, you can't just summon a replacement on the spot (resource management is good!). Something like that could be possible...

EDIT - see, brainstorming is good! Ideas like this don't happen without these discussions.

Edited April 7, 2022 by subtledoctor

[Awachi]

I'm a long way off, but I eventually want to make summoning a demon a quest in itself (starting long before reaching the actual casting level), and then it's a pact with one demon. Almost like a big, evil familiar with its own agenda. 

Edited April 7, 2022 by Awachi

[subtledoctor]

Or you could have an ability to summon a fairly weak fiend, but then upgrade the ability - or learn additional upgraded versions - as you complete more quests / do more deals / etc. You make a deal with a big bad boss, and he agrees to periodically let you summon his minions. 

Edited April 7, 2022 by subtledoctor

[Guest Shadow]

15 hours ago, Bartimaeus said:

Why would enemy clerics ever memorize or use

Honestly, idk if SCS uses this spell. In other games they sometimes use such protections as there are negative energy damage spells/etc.

15 hours ago, Bartimaeus said:

Giving their level drain a saving throw is a solution of sorts, but it's a little crude. Of course, I say that knowing the Wraiths of Summon Shadows inexplicably also have a saving throw for their attack, when they also should not...

Yes, crude, but as you see - similar thing present ingame. Anyway, as long as undead summons could get more variety - all is good. In regards to vamps, while i see your point about story related things, in dnd there are spells that allow for, basically, summoning them - create greater undead at high lvl. Such spells, while not in BG, are presented in some other games. Thats why i think its kinda ok to have them there with nerfed drain as such spells, sadly, not present in BG. Along with planar binding spells. And modded BG isnt exactly pnp.

15 hours ago, subtledoctor said:

No, I did not. 

You said that in lore they kinda dangerous bc supposed to attack in horde. The whole point - lore is one thing, but how its ingame, esp modded one, is another. Horde or not - not worth the spell slot in current state. Im ok with it being homage, there better spells at that lvl, so whatever.

15 hours ago, subtledoctor said:

I don’t have an “SR version.” I don’t know what you’re talking about.

First of all, it shouldnt be so hard to guess that i was talking about modifed spells. You yourself mentioned "non vorpal planetars". You changed some of them, so its "your" version of SR/SRR you are using, idk all the details. But, its not so important, bc what affects battles in modded game comes from all mods installed and their settings that change/add enemies/AI. Initially, i asked you about it - you missed/ignored that. There is a big difference if you play on legacy of baal with various SCS tactical things enabled and other mods that add to that vs just basic ai impovements and such. That directly affects summons efficiency bc conditions change even if summons have the same abilities/stats. Second - go with "baiting bs" to someone else as i dont care for all this idiocy. Your taste doesnt really matter here as its not your mod/changes we are talking about, so its not you or me who will decide what to change/add for next version. We could only suggest. And about this one - "Mr. Shadow shows very little imagination for how it can be used." When its coming from someone who is loosing certain 7 lvl summons quickly, while in my heavily modded games with increased difficulty they very often/usually live most of their duration while dealing ok damage and etc, bosses aside ofc, its rather funny, to say the least. Its hardly your place to judge my creative abilities in regards to spells. The whole bait/kite/etc is old as the world, there isnt much imagination/creativity needed for it in the first place and it wont work well, aside of first lvls, when a lot of tactical stuff installed, esp at higher lvl, where AI will often ignore it and go looking for your party/ better targets ( in BG), so when you compare things like using rabbits in IWD ( and you dont mention what mods/settings were used, so it may as well be assumed that you play on what could be considered "average" difficulty with basic ai impovements, where i could see that working to some extent) to high lvl spells... Wont work well in heavily modded BG, not matter the ammount of your imagination. Familiars do it just fine at low lvl, so you dont actually need to lose spellslot for it, but later, unless its creatures with drain and your party dont have protection from it and similar situations, isnt really worth the hassle. Zero sense in MS1 for such purpose (bait/aggro/etc), when you can cast AoE CC of the same lvl that could affect target and costs the same spellslot and potentionaly winning the fight from the start. IWD and BG are quite different things. I played modded IWD and its easier where it actually matters - hard encounters and bosses. As you seem unwilling to try to understand what im talking about, i consider further talk pointless.

12 hours ago, Bartimaeus said:

I think the intent of that line, although I could be wrong, was to try to understand what version of SR you are using.

Well, he is using some altered things (for instance, "non vorpal planetars", so there are changes, idk all the details) - that is what i ment by "your version", SR/SRR matters not. Initially, i was asking about other mods/settings used as its what matters the most. In short - he said that in his game current lvl 7 are "exellent" in ToB, i asked about what mods/settings used, bc in my case they were just ok, at best. He missed/ignored that question. Like you said i found them "fairly weak". In my game. Plus problems with size/ potentional exploits with them vs AI in certain scenarios where AI could stuck or smth like that. So, it would be nice to replace them with smth else and with 1 summon instead of 3. Anyway, i just hope that next ver will be in this year, despite all thats happening around.

10 hours ago, Awachi said:

I eventually want to make summoning a demon a quest in itself (starting long before reaching the actual casting level), and then it's a pact with one demon. Almost like a big, evil familiar with its own agenda. 

Its interesting. Balance wise - should add them to at least some of enemy spellcasters, but ai and how they would work with bigger mods...i suspect could be quite problematic.

[Bartimaeus]

The "Friendly Spells Pierce" settings.ini option has been updated due to issues with how it was implemented. The latest repository version (i.e. V1.3.802) of the mod's readme now mentions these carved out exceptions:

Due to havok caused with the dispelling and spell protection systems, this tweak only applies to the following spells: Cure Wounds spells, Regenerate Wounds spells, Aid, Slow Poison, Break Enchantment, Remove Paralysis, Cure Disease, Neutralize Poison, Lesser Restoration, Heal, Regeneration, and Greater Restoration. Note also that friendly-only area of effect spells (such as Haste, Magic Circle Against Evil, Resist Fear et al.) already go through spell protections even without this tweak.

Technically speaking, Neutralize Poison should not be included here because of its status as a specific protection (thus making it undispellable by Breach), but I am allowing it as an exception due to its poison-neutralizing ability. If people would prefer that it were not included, I can do that as well. Thanks to @subtledoctor and @Chosen for identifying the issues with the setting!

Edited April 22, 2022 by Bartimaeus

[Hubal]

Is it ok to install SCS divine spells and SRR spells together?