EET Mod Install Order Guide (WIP)

[Connelly]

A few more notes.

Hidden Adventures says in its readme that the Anomen component should go after Ajantis BG2, NPC Tweak and Item Upgrade. Unless something changed, @jastey?

Some mods seem to look for Ajantis BG1, so I put it immediately after BG1NPC. It might be fine to do it with the Coran and Xan friendship mods, just to keep the shared content together? But I don't think there's a real good reason for that.

"Spritual hammer component is incompatible with Spell Revisions" How so? I can't find anything about that.

The incompatibility between Cowled Menace and Unofficial Item Pack is only with the later's main component. The rest is fine.

Why would you want to install Nostalgia Pack after "ARESTORATION, BG1UB, UB, XAN, TYRISFLARE, KELSEY" in particular? Seems like a random choice of mods for that. Similarly, why would SCS be incompatible with Skie - Cost?

I haven't tested it, but I think Epic Thieving should go after anything rogue HLA related (RR, Refinements), at least for the Epic trap setting component, as it changes the trap skill and HLAs. Probably clashes with the combat skill system from SubtleD Combat Skills & Proficiencies.

For clarity and ease of reading, I think it'd be pretty safe to separate BG2 mods in a single section after the BG1 mods, both for quests and npcs. Most of them don't touch the other game group except for sharing global values. The only outliers being those that have to be installed on BG1 pre EET, Cowling Menace (which already asks to be after NPCs) and Blackhearts (which has different versions for BG1, BG2 and EET).

[jastey]

2 hours ago, Connelly said:

I think it'd be pretty safe to separate BG2 mods in a single section after the BG1 mods, both for quests and npcs.

There is more mods that overlap. For example, Ascalon's Questpack has content for both. My newer NPC mods and Ascalon's Breagar too, so they should be installed after all quest mods. I wouldn't violate the "first quest mods then NPC mods" rule with meta knowledge about which game the mod is for. Simply because there might be mods that touch both that you are not aware of (or might be expanded in the future. NTotSC for example considers an item that is inside an unreleased quest mod for ToB - this is done independent on install order, but still an example for not obvious hidden dependencies/crossmod.)

2 hours ago, Connelly said:

Hidden Adventures says in its readme that the Anomen component should go after Ajantis BG2, NPC Tweak and Item Upgrade.

I didn't change anything so I guess that still applies.

2 hours ago, Connelly said:

Some mods seem to look for Ajantis BG1, so I put it immediately after BG1NPC. It might be fine to do it with the Coran and Xan friendship mods, just to keep the shared content together? But I don't think there's a real good reason for that.

No reason other than to keep the friendship mods and BG1NPC together with them being from the same authors. You mention ease of reading later so this would be one instance where it applies.

[4udr4n]

9 hours ago, Connelly said:

Hidden Adventures says in its readme that the Anomen component should go after Ajantis BG2, NPC Tweak and Item Upgrade

Split out and moved after npc_tweak, thanks.

9 hours ago, Connelly said:

Some mods seem to look for Ajantis BG1, so I put it immediately after BG1NPC. It might be fine to do it with the Coran and Xan friendship mods, just to keep the shared content together? But I don't think there's a real good reason for that.

I've had a small reshuffle of NPC mods, but as @jastey says I am not keen to move mods out of their category without very good reason and certainly not just to keep related content together.

9 hours ago, Connelly said:

"Spritual hammer component is incompatible with Spell Revisions" How so? I can't find anything about that.

I have not always been diligent with adding source links, but I recall a forum thread discussing this. It is possible that one of he mods has updated to correct it since so it bears following up on and/or testing.

9 hours ago, Connelly said:

The incompatibility between Cowled Menace and Unofficial Item Pack is only with the later's main component. The rest is fine.

Noted.

9 hours ago, Connelly said:

Why would you want to install Nostalgia Pack after "ARESTORATION, BG1UB, UB, XAN, TYRISFLARE, KELSEY" in particular? Seems like a random choice of mods for that. Similarly, why would SCS be incompatible with Skie - Cost?

Nostalgia pack ones are from .ini or readmes, ask the mod author/maintainer. For now I am taking published compatibility info as gospel. Testing any unresolvable clashes can come later.

No idea re: skiecost and strategems. Fancy going digging?
 

9 hours ago, Connelly said:

I haven't tested it, but I think Epic Thieving should go after anything rogue HLA related (RR, Refinements), at least for the Epic trap setting component, as it changes the trap skill and HLAs. Probably clashes with the combat skill system from SubtleD Combat Skills & Proficiencies.

Very likely, I already have it very late. @subtledoctor may know more.

 

[Connelly]

13 hours ago, jastey said:

There is more mods that overlap.

I stand corrected.

6 hours ago, 4udr4n said:

Nostalgia pack ones are from .ini or readmes, ask the mod author/maintainer. For now I am taking published compatibility info as gospel. Testing any unresolvable clashes can come later.

That it does, huh. It's just a weird selection of mods considering what they and Nostalgia Pack do.

6 hours ago, 4udr4n said:

No idea re: skiecost and strategems. Fancy going digging?

Closest thing I can find is something about SCS screwing with Skie-Vanishing's Eldoth. So dunno.

[BlackStrapMolasses]

On 10/22/2023 at 5:45 PM, 4udr4n said:

Thanks, getting close to being something I may actively share elsewhere. Volunteering to help maintain?

I don't know if my knowledge is up for that, but I'm happy to assist where I can.

re, my mod suggestions, most of them are on this https://k4thos.github.io/EET-Compatibility-List/EET-Compatibility-List.html,  Is this the correct EET Compatibility List? (Edit: added some comments on the non-EET sheet to identify mods that are on this list)

Now, I'm new here and have no wish to reopen old wounds.  But, there is a mod author out there who appears to be unpopular around here because of her "liberal" approach to intellectual property who has a tool (also apparently unpopular) with a suggested install order.  Has anyone reviewed that install order?

 

Edited October 23, 2023 by BlackStrapMolasses
update edit info

[4udr4n]

10 hours ago, BlackStrapMolasses said:

I don't know if my knowledge is up for that, but I'm happy to assist where I can.

Great!

10 hours ago, BlackStrapMolasses said:

re, my mod suggestions, most of them are on this https://k4thos.github.io/EET-Compatibility-List/EET-Compatibility-List.html,  Is this the correct EET Compatibility List? (Edit: added some comments on the non-EET sheet to identify mods that are on this list)

I thought I'd done those, thanks! Yes that's the 'official' list.

10 hours ago, BlackStrapMolasses said:

Now, I'm new here and have no wish to reopen old wounds.  But, there is a mod author out there who appears to be unpopular around here because of her "liberal" approach to intellectual property who has a tool (also apparently unpopular) with a suggested install order.  Has anyone reviewed that install order?

I did look at that originally (2020) but it is extremely unreliable. Quite a few of the mods are actually forks with content changes and 'compatibility patches' and as soon as you try the same order with the main branch things fall apart.

[4udr4n]

On 10/23/2023 at 8:59 PM, BlackStrapMolasses said:

Edit: added some comments on the non-EET sheet to identify mods that are on this list

Huge thanks for these, I've updated with your suggestions.

[BlackStrapMolasses]

Just now, 4udr4n said:

Huge thanks for these, I've updated with your suggestions.

No problem. 

14 hours ago, 4udr4n said:

Great!

I thought I'd done those, thanks! Yes that's the 'official' list.

I did look at that originally (2020) but it is extremely unreliable. Quite a few of the mods are actually forks with content changes and 'compatibility patches' and as soon as you try the same order with the main branch things fall apart.

Understood.  One of the other aspects of that tool is it picks up conflicts between mod components; I guess they're all dodgy too, but have they been checked?

[moggadeet]

The install tool isn't great about conflict reports because some of them are "conceptual conflicts." Eg, it reports a "conflict" between the Gavin NPC mod and the Reunion quest mod because both of them feature an existing NPC who is written in very different ways. But you can install both mods without any technical issues. I don't believe it actually specifies whether something is a conceptual conflict or an actual technical error, so its reports aren't very helpful.

[Alywena]

Hello @4udr4n

First of all, I'd like to congratulate you and encourage you in your work, because I know it's not easy.

I myself am working on a fork of BigWorldSetup, updated for EE, but only supporting mods that have a French translation. And I've done the same thing as you (read all the readme, looked for information on the forums about the order of installation and incompatibilities).

I can see that you've obtained some information that I didn't have, so I'm going to use it to improve the BWS-FR. However, I encourage you to take a look at what has already been done within BWS-FR and take whatever you consider useful. Its installations are stable, several French players have done various installations and were able to finish the game without any major problems.

One of the special features is that it also includes a Fixpack that fixes various bugs (I'm trying to create PRs on the official repositories) and improves compatibility. 

In future releases, I plan to implement a check that will warn the user of possible problems such as too many entries in the splstate.ids file, whether if the limit of 50 spells per level has been exceeded, etc.

[4udr4n]

17 minutes ago, BlackStrapMolasses said:

have they been checked?

Not for a long time.

2 minutes ago, moggadeet said:

some of them are "conceptual conflicts."

And some of them are valid, but for forks that lag main branch updates because Roxanne is only really interested in a very specific sort of compatibility; that with Roxanne's mods.

I'm happy to investigate any suggestions that come from the EET Install Tool, but my past experience with it and every report I've seen since leaves me unwilling to use or trust it.

I also anticipate that many modders are already fed up with explaining that their mod is fine and the reason it doesn't work for a given user is the EET Install Tool breaking it or using a dodgy fork, so adding to that by pestering them regarding potentially untrustworthy compatibility info may not be well received.

[4udr4n]

4 minutes ago, Alywena said:

Hello @4udr4n

First of all, I'd like to congratulate you and encourage you in your work, because I know it's not easy.

I myself am working on a fork of BigWorldSetup, updated for EE, but only supporting mods that have a French translation. And I've done the same thing as you (read all the readme, looked for information on the forums about the order of installation and incompatibilities).

I can see that you've obtained some information that I didn't have, so I'm going to use it to improve the BWS-FR. However, I encourage you to take a look at what has already been done within BWS-FR and take whatever you consider useful. Its installations are stable, several French players have done various installations and were able to finish the game without any major problems.

One of the special features is that it also includes a Fixpack that fixes various bugs (I'm trying to create PRs on the official repositories) and improves compatibility. 

In future releases, I plan to implement a check that will warn the user of possible problems such as too many entries in the splstate.ids file, whether if the limit of 50 spells per level has been exceeded, etc.

That's a great project, also good to see that the fixpack is standalone and you are making pull requests.

I hope my list is useful, and I will review yours too. Please let me know if you notice any missing information on mine and I'll do the same in return.

It had occurred to me that adding a list of which languages each mod is available in could be useful, and I can probably add French to many of them now!

[subtledoctor]

26 minutes ago, 4udr4n said:

because Roxanne is only really interested in a very specific sort of compatibility; that with Roxanne's mods.

Not only that, but when she had forums I would often see her make unwise decisions without any discussion with other modders. Like, once she said “I don’t really see why SCS has to be last, I think maybe it could be first.” And since it was not a community project like BWS but just her personal knock-off, she moved SCS just like that. And then for two weeks, everyone who relied on that tool was having SCS installed super early. Which of course was ruinous. 

Edited October 24, 2023 by subtledoctor

[4udr4n]

3 minutes ago, subtledoctor said:

“I don’t really see why SCS has to be last, I think maybe it could be first.”

I am very much a player, not a modder, and though I work in IT, it's in sales rather than technical.

Despite that handicap, even I can grasp that mods which aim to make broad changes across the game will need to do so after mods which add content that would be affected. I can also see the value in accepting the wisdom of others with more expertise (at least unless/until my experience contradicts it!).

It baffles me that others cannot.

[jastey]

9 hours ago, Alywena said:

(I'm trying to create PRs on the official repositories)

Thanks for that. Please do, please report bugs to the mods' forums. My blood pressure started building when I read "another BWP Fixpack" because I talked to Leonardo and talked and talked to please, please inform the original mod authors instead of just silently adding fixes (a few of them actually screwing something else).

The majority of mods has an official forum, so even if they don't get updated right away, the info is there and the bugfix can be integrated into the official package. We do not need BWPFixpack 2.0.