EET Mod Install Order Guide (WIP)

[subtledoctor]

3 hours ago, Bartimaeus said:

I have very limited experience with using the IWD spell stuff, but my recollection is that it's supposed to be installed after SR/R in order to prevent unnecessary duplicate spells and wasted slots. The way the SR installer is written, I don't think it'll care if an IWD spell that it wants to add already exists and so it'll make a second version, whereas with IWDification/SCS IWD's spells, if it detects a spell that it wants to add already exists, it should skip said spell.

I thought that is not the case since SR was moved over to ADD_SPELL'ing its stuff?

I think they should be able to go in either order... but I'm not sure because I always install SR first (and that is ultimately what I suggest for install order - it is by far the better-tested combination. Note however the necessity of adding Graion's Water Elemental mod if SR is installed first and you intend to install SCS later. (I have it installed this way currently - SR-->IWDification-->zgmagic-->SCS - and I have looked at the spell files and they appear to be in good shape.)

EDIT - I just installed IWDification-->SR and I don't see anything doubled up. It does however appear that SR will overwrite any shared spells with its own versions, where IWDification will not. Only examples I can think of off-hand are Cure Moderate Wounds and Vitriolic Sphere. In essence, if these two mods are installed together then you will always get the SR version of those two spells. This order additionally does not require Graion's water elemental add-on mod, so... I tentatively want to say this might be preferable? Maybe? I just hesitate because it is less-well-tested. We need intrepid experimenters to confirm!

In regard to my mods: note that the latest versions of Faiths & Powers - v0.86 as of this writing - is a single mod that no longer needs to be split up. It should be installed after all other kit mods, i.e. where you currently have FnP Multiclass. Also note that the IR secondary components (specifically the 'Weapon Changes' component) need to be installed before FnP. So you could shift IR up above where you currently have FnP Multiclass (I don't think it conflicts with anything else there), or you could shift FnP down below IR. I think either way would work without issues.

I think Refinements wants to be installed before Might & Guile. That's how it is in my current game - but I can't check the files right now to see if they are as they should be. I will confirm when I get the chance.

For the other recent changes: just change the name of SubtleD's Random Tweaks to SubtleD's Spell Tweaks, but otherwise leave it where it is. And add Combat Skills & Proficiencies... I don't really know, probably after SCS? I currently have it after aTweaks and it seems to be working well.

I am curious where you got the S&S recommendation to be installed after RR. The copy of the mod that I have has no such info...

Edited October 20, 2023 by subtledoctor

[jastey]

Thank you for your work on this.

Road to Discovery should be last mod with SoD content. If it is installed after other mods that add interjections or reply options to SoD, not all instances will be tracked correctly.

EDIT: The NPC mods relying on it for triggers do not need it installed before them.

[Graion Dilach]

2 hours ago, subtledoctor said:

I thought that is not the case since SR was moved over to ADD_SPELL'ing its stuff?

I think they should be able to go in either order... but I'm not sure because I always install SR first (and that is ultimately what I suggest for install order - it is by far the better-tested combination. Note however the necessity of adding Graion's Water Elemental mod if SR is installed first and you intend to install SCS later. (I have it installed this way currently - SR-->IWDification-->zgmagic-->SCS - and I have looked at the spell files and they appear to be in good shape.)

EDIT - I just installed IWDification-->SR and I don't see anything doubled up. It does however appear that SR will overwrite any shared spells with its own versions, where IWDification will not. Only examples I can think of off-hand are Cure Moderate Wounds and Vitriolic Sphere. In essence, if these two mods are installed together then you will always get the SR version of those two spells. This order additionally does not require Graion's water elemental add-on mod, so... I tentatively want to say this might be preferable? Maybe? I just hesitate because it is less-well-tested. We need intrepid experimenters to confirm!

The edits SR apply to the base spells are very rough. IWDification's spell updates are more systematic. It feels more reliable to me to either fix or document and workaround the issues caused by the SR->IWDification order, than to attempt flipping them and assume that SR will also properly update the IWDification spells where necessary.

On the other hand, your own outburst wrt my SR feedback is the reason why I dropped all my plans to interact with SR, so good luck recruiting volunteers for these tests.

Edited October 20, 2023 by Graion Dilach

[jastey]

Some more comments:

bg1re is more of an Encounter&Quest mod. I would install it before BG1NPC (but after EndlessBG1+Transitions).

I would install RE (Romantic Encounter) before BGII NPC Mods (exception I4E) in case they react to it. EDIT: Sir Ajantis fpr BGII for example needs to go after RE because crossmod is in the main Ajantis BGII component.

Cowled Menace is quite late after the NPC mods, is that the recommended install order?

These NPC mods have crossmod components that would need to go late:
Ascalon's Breagar
AjantisBG1 Expansion
Brage's Redemption
(Brandock the Mage)
(Husam NPC)
Grey the Dog

 

Some comments to Solaufein's Rescue:
Solaufein's Rescue has crossmod content with Eilistraee's Song (should be installed after Eilistraee's Song - for info, is already considered in the list)

Solaufein's Rescue has a crossmod component that should go after any subrace mods. In the list subrace mod is in between NPC mods - I had one bug report for the install order subrace mod - Solaufein's Rescue main component so I usually recommend to install the main component first, compatibility component after subrace mods.

- That said, I have no idea where subrace mods would go in install order in general.

Crossmod Banter for Solaufein are inside the Crossmod Banter Pack (just fi)

This is just a hint that the main component of Solaufein's rescue could go earlier (it also contains a quest that other mod NPCs might react to, although I don't know any specific

 

[4udr4n]

9 hours ago, morpheus562 said:

Yes, Forgotten Armament's NWN Style Weapons will identify if an axe is 2h and update accordingly. Additionally, if the 2h axe also does any setting of a attribute, Forgotten Armament will set it to increment.

So needs to be after IWDification right? Can I recommend adding this to your readme. Does this hold for any other mods (beyond mih_ip, Sod2BG2 items, TheCalling: Exotic Item Pack).

8 hours ago, subtledoctor said:

I don’t know that that is really necessary. I’ve never split it up and I haven’t noticed any problems. 

Same here and I've used on many previous successful runs. My concern is that it may be overwriting or overwritten by other things so potentially we are missing content, it just isn't causing any game breaking issues (yet).

8 hours ago, subtledoctor said:

— The spell packs should indeed be before TotLM-in-BG2EE (and IWD1_EET) but I rather think the solution is to move those quest mods later, rather than moving IWDification earlier. 

Moving the quest mods later puts them after item mods, which risks mod-added items not being picked up. E.g. thalan specifically says it comes after ntotsc.

8 hours ago, subtledoctor said:

— Doesn’t make sense to have IWDification spell packs in a different place than SCS IWD spell packs, as they are functionally identical. 

— Expanded Polymorph doesn’t really matter, it tweaks the spell so the only rule I can think of is to go before any mods that might clone the spell (kit mods and SCS AI). 

Probably true, though I understand IWDification is preferred and should come first.
Safe to just advise Expanded polymorph goes with spell packs? Does it get undone by SR or anything else?

 

8 hours ago, subtledoctor said:

— I haven’t looked much at the class updates, my guess would be that there is less a matter of install order issues with RR as simple mutual incompatibility (in which case install order doesn’t matter). 

IWDification readme:

Quote

IWD Class Updates: Bard: Add IWD Bard Songs should be installed after the Rogue Rebalancing and Garrick: Tales of a Troubadour mods. Note that IWDification's new bard songs will replace Rogue Rebalacing's normal trueclass bard song, but it will not affect the kitted bard songs and will preserve the HLA bard songs--e.g. a trueclass bard will get IWDification's bard songs, but they will get RR's version of the Enhanced Bard Song as an HLA selection. Kitted bards will just get Rogue Reblancing's songs.

Feels like we can just split the class changes and put them much later after rr.

3 hours ago, subtledoctor said:

I just installed IWDification-->SR and I don't see anything doubled up. It does however appear that SR will overwrite any shared spells with its own versions, where IWDification will not. Only examples I can think of off-hand are Cure Moderate Wounds and Vitriolic Sphere. In essence, if these two mods are installed together then you will always get the SR version of those two spells. This order additionally does not require Graion's water elemental add-on mod, so... I tentatively want to say this might be preferable? Maybe? I just hesitate because it is less-well-tested. We need intrepid experimenters to confirm!

This seems logical, I'll test it and recommend for now (with notes).

3 hours ago, subtledoctor said:

In regard to my mods: note that the latest versions of Faiths & Powers - v0.86 as of this writing - is a single mod that no longer needs to be split up. It should be installed after all other kit mods, i.e. where you currently have FnP Multiclass. Also note that the IR secondary components (specifically the 'Weapon Changes' component) need to be installed before FnP. So you could shift IR up above where you currently have FnP Multiclass (I don't think it conflicts with anything else there), or you could shift FnP down below IR. I think either way would work without issues.

For the other recent changes: just change the name of SubtleD's Random Tweaks to SubtleD's Spell Tweaks, but otherwise leave it where it is. And add Combat Skills & Proficiencies... I don't really know, probably after SCS? I currently have it after aTweaks and it seems to be working well.

Done, thanks!

3 hours ago, subtledoctor said:

I think Refinements wants to be installed before Might & Guile. That's how it is in my current game - but I can't check the files right now to see if they are as they should be. I will confirm when I get the chance.

I am curious where you got the S&S recommendation to be installed after RR. The copy of the mod that I have has no such info...

Your readme says might_and_guile before refinements. I'll change it if you change the readme! 

Song_and_silence checks for rr (stated in readme), don't think the reverse is true hence always put it after. I believe there was discussion of this on the rr compatibility thread on shs but it is unavailable.

Also I think HLA modification is generally last mod wins, see readmes for refinements, rr, strategms, song_and_silence.

1 hour ago, jastey said:

Thank you for your work on this.

Road to Discovery should be last mod with SoD content. If it is installed after other mods that add interjections or reply options to SoD, not all instances will be tracked correctly.

EDIT: The NPC mods relying on it for triggers do not need it installed before them.

Does this mean all SoD quest and npc mods that are not specifically relying upon it? Is there a list of those that do?

56 minutes ago, Graion Dilach said:

The edits SR apply to the base spells are very rough. IWDification's spell updates are more systematic. It feels more reliable to me to either fix or document and workaround the issues caused by the SR->IWDification order, than to attempt flipping them and assume that SR will also properly update the IWDification spells where necessary.

I am somewhat inclined to avoid SR at present personally, for many reasons, and am pleased to see so many well maintained mods covering similar ground in better, more compatible and targeted ways.

Both my preferences and any potential fixes are irrelevant for this guide though, the aim to offer the most likely compatible install order.

51 minutes ago, jastey said:

bg1re is more of an Encounter&Quest mod. I would install it before BG1NPC (but after EndlessBG1+Transitions).

I would install RE (Romantic Encounter) before BGII NPC Mods (exception I4E) in case they react to it. EDIT: Sir Ajantis fpr BGII for example needs to go after RE because crossmod is in the main Ajantis BGII component.

Done, thanks!

51 minutes ago, jastey said:

Cowled Menace is quite late after the NPC mods, is that the recommended install order?

Readme says after npc mods. It is a bit vague and I do worry about a large quest mod so late, but have not had time to look into this yet. @Daxtreme any thoughts?

51 minutes ago, jastey said:

These NPC mods have crossmod components that would need to go late:
Ascalon's Breagar
AjantisBG1 Expansion
Brage's Redemption
(Brandock the Mage)
(Husam NPC)
Grey the Dog

Do these components need to be broken out or can the whole mod just be late in the npc section?

51 minutes ago, jastey said:

Some comments to Solaufein's Rescue:
Solaufein's Rescue has crossmod content with Eilistraee's Song (should be installed after Eilistraee's Song - for info, is already considered in the list)

Solaufein's Rescue has a crossmod component that should go after any subrace mods. In the list subrace mod is in between NPC mods - I had one bug report for the install order subrace mod - Solaufein's Rescue main component so I usually recommend to install the main component first, compatibility component after subrace mods.

- That said, I have no idea where subrace mods would go in install order in general.

Crossmod Banter for Solaufein are inside the Crossmod Banter Pack (just fi)

This is just a hint that the main component of Solaufein's rescue could go earlier (it also contains a quest that other mod NPCs might react to, although I don't know any specific

I've moved C#Solaufein early in npc, added ref to elistraee and crossmodbg2. I've split out the compatibility component and stuck it after subrace.

Currently @tipun's subrace mod is with kits, but perhaps that needs looking at.

[DavidW]

7 hours ago, subtledoctor said:

DIT - I just installed IWDification-->SR and I don't see anything doubled up. It does however appear that SR will overwrite any shared spells with its own versions, where IWDification will not. Only examples I can think of off-hand are Cure Moderate Wounds and Vitriolic Sphere. In essence, if these two mods are installed together then you will always get the SR version of those two spells. This order additionally does not require Graion's water elemental add-on mod, so... I tentatively want to say this might be preferable? Maybe? I just hesitate because it is less-well-tested. We need intrepid experimenters to confirm!

My guess is that you might have problems with Monster Summoning. SR uses 3e conventions for monster summoning, as I recall, whereas IWDSpells uses AD&D conventions. IWDSpells is careful to skip installing Monster Summoning altogether if SR is present, but I doubt SR is clever enough to unwind IWDSpells' monster summoning.

You might also have problems with scrolls. I don't know how carefully SR handles scrolls, but unless it's very careful, you'll end up with multiple copies of scrolls for spells SR overwrites, e.g. Vitriolic Sphere.

You'll also get some quite large thematic inconsistencies between Earth/Air/Fire elementals and Water elementals. To be fair you get some of that the other way around too, but it's lessened if you use Graion's mod after SR->IWDSpells, and will probably be fixed entirely in the next IWDSpells release.

[Graion Dilach]

Current IWDification breaks SR Monster Summoning, so that issue happens both ways: https://github.com/Gibberlings3/iwdification/issues/24#issuecomment-1769869390

[subtledoctor]

6 hours ago, Graion Dilach said:

so good luck recruiting volunteers for these tests. 

Look at that, everyone is being nice, and who comes in to spoil the mood. Your childishness continues to impress, sir. Bless your heart!

1 hour ago, Graion Dilach said:

Current IWDification breaks SR Monster Summoning

That linked report is vague enough that I have no idea what you are saying. What do fire beetles have to do with SR Monster Summoning?

3 hours ago, 4udr4n said:

Moving the quest mods later puts them after item mods, which risks mod-added items not being picked up. E.g. thalan specifically says it comes after ntotsc.

I meant only move IWD1_EET, IWD2_EET, and TotLM-in-BG2EE. I think those ate fairly unmoored from the other quest/NPC mods. But I suppose installing IWD spells earlier is likely to be harmless as well. Only thing then is, as noted above, that probably means moving SR earlier as well. The age-old issue, move one thing around and it necessitates moving others. (Witness how I had moved some stuff in my list and left some other mods in the wrong order, and suddenly Jastey appears like a wizard out of Improved Invisibility, casting Divine Wagging Finger of Judgment (seemingly upcast at about 7th level!  ))

3 hours ago, 4udr4n said:

Your readme says might_and_guile before refinements. I'll change it if you change the readme!

Ha ha, I wonder why it's reversed in my current install! Maybe I decided to experiment? I’ll check it out and report back. 

3 hours ago, 4udr4n said:

Also I think HLA modification is generally last mod wins, see readmes for refinements, rr, strategms, song_and_silence.

Those readmes were written in ~2004. Anything I have touched (SubtleMods, UnearthedArcana, and Refinements) patches rather than overwriting HLA tables. 

It can still be thorny, however: to inure against tables being overwritten, the table-patching functions first move the table and change it in LUABBR. Kind of a copy-on-write scheme. But, this means the old tables can be left in a state that does not match the new ones. Example: take by itself Refinements removing UAI and adding Use Scrolls in its place. After installing, trueclass thieves would use LUD5_4.2da instead of LUTH0.2da. The problem is with any kits installed later that use vanilla tables instead of adding custom ones. ADD_KIT etc. don’t have the facility to match and existing kit’s table, most kits designed to use the thief table just put “Th0” - which may be out of date. 

I have added code to Refinements to backport changes to the original tables back to their original files, but I recall it being a bit finicky. I think my current install order is meant to test the current state if things. If you install Refinements —> MnG right now, what should happen is, 1) Refinements sets up its new thief table at LUD5_4.2da; 2) afterward Refinements copies that new table back to LUTH0.2da; 3) an MnG thief kit uses LUTH0.2da as a base table, which should match Refinements trueclass table; and 4) MnG then patches custom stuff in for that kit and saves it as a new table. 

tl;dr: for HLAs I think the order should be:

1. mods that overwrite tables (RR, S&S, kit mods generally)
2. mods that make class-wide patches (Refinements)
3. mods that make kit-specific patches (my stuff)

Edited October 20, 2023 by subtledoctor

[Delior]

A few notes on this as I've been working on setting up a stable megamod EET installation myself the past few weeks:

- I don't believe Revised Magic Battles and Enhanced Powergaming Scripts are fully compatible, at least not at the moment.  My EPGS installation had errors when I tried installing it with RMB, and the EPGS readme notes compatibility with most of SD's mods, but not RMB.  

- My SCS installation threw out an error relating to attempting to modify the CRE file for Eldoth.  I tried an installation with The Vanishing of Skie Silvershield removed and that time SCS installed without the Edloth CRE error, and so that mod may have compatibility issues with SCS, but I have no idea whether they cause significant issues in the game.   

- Lastly, I keep getting the error below every time I try to install the revised archer component from MIght and Guile.  I have tried to figure out which other mod is causing the issue, but I haven't been albe to pinpoint it yet:

ERROR: cannot convert slinger_code or %slinger_code% to an integer
ERROR: [QD_MCT01.spl] -> [override/QD_MCT01.spl] Patching Failed (COPY) (Not_found)
Stopping installation because of error.
Stopping installation because of error.
ERROR Installing [Revised Archers], rolling back to previous state
Will uninstall  84 files for [might_and_guile\might_and_guile.tp2] component 225.
Uninstalled     84 files for [might_and_guile\might_and_guile.tp2] component 225.
ERROR: Not_found
Please make a backup of the file: Setup-might_and_guile.debug and look for support at: SubtleD
Automatically Skipping [Revised Archers] because of error.
Using Language [English]
[.\lang\en_us\dialog.tlk] created, 487369 string entries
NOT INSTALLED DUE TO ERRORS Revised Archers

[Graion Dilach]

25 minutes ago, Delior said:

- My SCS installation threw out an error relating to attempting to modify the CRE file for Eldoth.  I tried an installation with The Vanishing of Skie Silvershield removed and that time SCS installed without the Edloth CRE error, and so that mod may have compatibility issues with SCS, but I have no idea whether they cause significant issues in the game.   

This likely will be fixed with v35. DavidW mentioned a buggy BG1 NPC detection on EET and I suspect this + the way Vanishing degrades Eldoth to lose all his spellslots throw the warning. I don't think Smarter Mages is supposed to run on him anyway.

WRT Monster Summoning - it's basically the same situation akin to the water elementals. IWDSpells installs the vanilla IWD summoning tables during main component install and attempts fixing them during a post-process step. In an SR->IWDspells order, this also means only the Level 1 and the Level 2 summon spells are installed, and the postprocess step refuses to run because it prolly detects that the other spells are from SR, so the level 1 & level 2 spells will point to nonexistant creatures. Maybe IWD1-in-EET fixes this unintentionally via also porting the oIWD summoned creatures over.

There's already a workaround for this one though, installing MiH Spell Pack's summon spell component will rewrite all those spells regardless of source.

Edited October 20, 2023 by Graion Dilach

[subtledoctor]

29 minutes ago, Delior said:

error below every time I try to install the revised archer component from MIght and Guile.

Whoops, that is an internal compatibility error, not an external one. Fixed now.

[morpheus562]

3 hours ago, 4udr4n said:

So needs to be after IWDification right? Can I recommend adding this to your readme. Does this hold for any other mods (beyond mih_ip, Sod2BG2 items, TheCalling: Exotic Item Pack).

I already have this listed in my readme:

Quote

NWN2 Style Weapons and Update Items Setting an Ability Score to Increment the Increase components should be installed AFTER any mods that add new weapons or items to the game.

 

[subtledoctor]

17 minutes ago, Graion Dilach said:

In an SR->IWDspells order, this also means only the Level 1 and the Level 2 summon spells are installoed, and the postprocess step refuses to run because it prolly detects that the other spells are from SR, so the level 1 & level 2 spells will point to nonexistant creatures.

I'm still missing something. IWDification tries to install 1st-level and 2nd-level Monster Summoning spells?? Do 1st-level and 2nd-level monster summoning spells even exist in IWD?

And even if they do, doesn't IWD defer to preexisting spells? I have installed SR-->IWDification many times, both with and without any other IWD-related mods, and my recollection is that you just get SR behavior for all MS spells. The only problem I am aware of is IWDification overwriting some of SR's icons with its green ones. (It also messes up SR's Cure Moderate Wounds icon. I have a hotfix for these things if people are interested.)

Now, it is entirely possible that the combination causes MSUMM01.2da to be malformed or refer to missing resources... but with SR installed, I don't think any spell actually uses MSUMM01.2da. So this seems harmless.

Edited October 20, 2023 by subtledoctor

[DavidW]

IWDspells (the converter at the core of IWDification’s and SCS’s spell system) defers to SR, BUT there is currently a bug in its process for detecting SR. (due to a typo, it looks for SR component 55, NWN style spell turning, not for component 0, the main component.)

This is fixed on Github for IWDSpells, though not yet rolled out for either SCS or IWDification - it will be in the next version of both. I’m slightly surprised it hasn’t been noticed more - perhaps most SR users also use NWN style turning.

[4udr4n]

39 minutes ago, subtledoctor said:

I meant only move IWD1_EET, IWD2_EET, and TotLM-in-BG2EE. I think those ate fairly unmoored from the other quest/NPC mods.

Ah, DSotSC also say before IWDification but it is only the spell components so I have split those out.

1 hour ago, Graion Dilach said:

There's already a workaround for this one though, installing MiH Spell Pack's summon spell component will rewrite all those spells regardless of source.

This is helpful, I have placed mih_sp directly after IWDification and scs IWD spells and added a note that it will overwrite.

40 minutes ago, subtledoctor said:

Those readmes were written in ~2004. Anything I have touched (SubtkeMods, UnearthedArcana, and Refinements) patches rather than 

Noted, but still the case for S&S and RR, so presumably refinements needs to be after them?

1 hour ago, Delior said:

- I don't believe Revised Magic Battles and Enhanced Powergaming Scripts are fully compatible, at least not at the moment.  My EPGS installation had errors when I tried installing it with RMB, and the EPGS readme notes compatibility with most of SD's mods, but not RMB.  

Thanks, noted.

1 hour ago, subtledoctor said:

IWDification overwriting some of SR's icons with its green ones. (It also messes up SR's Cure Moderate Wounds icon. I have a hotfix for these things if people are interested.)

Yes please

1 hour ago, morpheus562 said:

I already have this listed in my readme

Great! Then I suggest adding a specific mention of IWDification's 2-handed axes component. Maybe also adding to the .ini.