EET Mod Install Order Guide (WIP)

[morpheus562]

17 minutes ago, 4udr4n said:

Great! Then I suggest adding a specific mention of IWDification's 2-handed axes component. Maybe also adding to the .ini.

No, there are too many mods that add items where I do not want to get into the business of specifically having to call out different mods that add items. Blanket statement as already provided covers for everything.

[DavidW]

1 hour ago, subtledoctor said:

The only problem I am aware of is IWDification overwriting some of SR's icons with its green ones. (It also messes up SR's Cure Moderate Wounds icon. I have a hotfix for these things if people are interested.)

What’s the issue, and the desired behavior, here?

[jastey]

5 hours ago, 4udr4n said:

Does this mean all SoD quest and npc mods that are not specifically relying upon it? Is there a list of those that do?

I don't think there is any mod that needs RtD installed before it. All NPC mods depending on its tracking system get the needed input inside the game, independent on install order. (If that was the question.)

5 hours ago, 4udr4n said:

Do these components need to be broken out or can the whole mod just be late in the npc section?

I'd rather they'd be broken out because it might be I'll include mods that would be after NPC section; (for example like Cowled Menace if I'll come to it (my newer NPC mods will have BGII content in the same package when finished)).

Thank you!

[subtledoctor]

  

5 hours ago, DavidW said:

IWDspells (the converter at the core of IWDification’s and SCS’s spell system) defers to SR, BUT there is currently a bug in its process for detecting SR. (due to a typo, it looks for SR component 55, NWN style spell turning, not for component 0, the main component.)

This is fixed on Github for IWDSpells, though not yet rolled out for either SCS or IWDification - it will be in the next version of both. I’m slightly surprised it hasn’t been noticed more - perhaps most SR users also use NWN style turning.

Ah! That is interesting. I had thought that IWDification was doing a general check "if this spell already exists, do not bother installing it" (like what Faiths & Powers does - and yeah looking at that very old code I can see that using a regexp there is a bad idea, so if you want to criticize, consider it already done)

I didn't realize it was implementing a specific list of spells to exclude. All of my installs with SR-->IWDification had NWN Deflection installed, so I never noticed an issue. Having just installed both mods without NWN Deflection, I can see that they don't work well together. When Graion was talking about the "level 1" and "level 2" MS spells, he really meant the level 3 (MS1) and level 4 (MS2) spells, and indeed IWDification installs them over SR's spells and the MSUMM01 table is malformed. But you are right, this would not happen if IWDspells correctly used SR component 0 instead of 55. And installing NWN Deflection obviates the problem.

5 hours ago, DavidW said:

What’s the issue, and the desired behavior, here?

(re: icons)

Even if the player does install SR #55, it seems the IWDspells icons code does not defer to SR in the same way that the spell-adding code does. So with SR (#0 + #55) --> IWDspells, you get:

Monster Summoning 1 at 1st level, with a red icon with roman numeral 'I' Monster Summoning 2 at 2nd level, with a red icon with roman numeral 'II' Monster Summoning 3 at 3rd level, with a green icon with roman numeral 'I'  (should be red III) Monster Summoning 4 at 4th level, with a green icon with roman numeral 'II'  (should be red IV) Monster Summoning 5 at 5th level, with a green icon with roman numeral 'III'  (should be red V) Monster Summoning 6 at 6th level, with a green icon with roman numeral 'IV'  (should be red VI) Monster Summoning 7 at 7th level, with a green icon with roman numeral 'V'  (should be red VII) Monster Summoning 8 at 8th level, with a red icon with roman numeral 'VIII'

Cure Moderate Wounds is a bit odder; it gets the IWD icon in its first header, but retains the SR icon in all other headers (maybe the base IWD spell only has one header?)

In all these cases the actual spell is in all ways the SR version. Only the icons are applied by IWDspells.

EDIT - you know what, I was wrong. I apologize, my memory is faulty. The icons thing was something between SR and SCS, and I think it might have actually been fixed in SCS v34. I just installed SR 4b19 (including #55) and IWDification, and the only icon issue I see is the 4th-level MS4 spell gets a green spider icon instead of the red summon icon with “IV.” (Because SR cannibalizes Spider Spawn for MS4.) Everything else is fine. 

Edited October 20, 2023 by subtledoctor

[Connelly]

6 hours ago, 4udr4n said:

Currently @tipun's subrace mod is with kits, but perhaps that needs looking at.

The last I heard about it is that it should go after SCS by Tipun's suggestion (followed by Soulafein's subrace compatibility component). Don't know why though, so take it with a grain of salt.

I might be wrong, but what I do with Forgotten Armaments is just move the NWN2, ability score, nerf apr and critical hit immunity components after SCS and/or CDTweaks, because there are a few kit and tweak mods that keep adding weapons among the kit, tweak and tactics mods. Seems like the least painful option; there are some item components like Rogue Rebalance's that you could move to before FA, but I find that just makes a mess of precision uninstalls if you're not on the ball, and other mods like Shadow Magic have their items implemented into their main component, so you can't move those around.

The bigger issue with placing IWDification in an install order, user wise, is that TotLM wants to be installed after IWD, which goes against commonly shared wisdom most users might find. Plus, it isn't just a minor component that you can split to install later, it's the entire mod. And the more mods you install, the more factors there are to build up a user's confusion. At least with NTotSC you can opt out of installing its spells. I simply decided to not install ToTLM anymore.

Edited October 20, 2023 by Connelly

[subtledoctor]

4 hours ago, 4udr4n said:

Noted, but still the case for S&S and RR, so presumably refinements needs to be after them?

Yes

[DavidW]

2 hours ago, subtledoctor said:

Ah! That is interesting. I had thought that IWDification was doing a general check "if this spell already exists, do not bother installing it" (like what Faiths & Powers does - and yeah looking at that very old code I can see that using a regexp there is a bad idea, so if you want to criticize, consider it already done)

I didn't realize it was implementing a specific list of spells to exclude.

It's a bit complicated. By default, IWDSpells silently skips a spell that's already present. But there is a specific list of spells it's told to overwrite: for instance, it overwrites MS1-MS3, so that they're not mismatched stylistically with MS4-MS7. SR has a different (and much shorter, indeed blank I think) overwrite list, so IWDSpells detects SR when deciding which overwrite list to use. That's the detection code that wasn't working properly.

[4udr4n]

On 10/20/2023 at 5:45 PM, jastey said:

I don't think there is any mod that needs RtD installed before it. All NPC mods depending on its tracking system get the needed input inside the game, independent on install order. (If that was the question.)

OK, readme:

Quote

COMPATIBILITY NOTE

Install Road to Discovery very late in install order. This mod should be installed AFTER the following mods:
-Themed Tweaks
-Jastey's SoD Tweakpack
-any mod that adds reply options or transactions to SoD, like NPC mods or story tweak mods.

sodrtd.ini:

Quote

ACBre, ajantisbg1, bg2fixpack, biffsodtutorial, c#anotherfinehell, c#brage, c#brandock, c#husam, c#sodboabri, c#sodtweaks, EET, imoen_forever, themed_tweaks

If the NPC mods are listed only due to the tracking, sodrtd can be installed in the quest section after other sod quest/storyline mods.

If not, it will need to be pushed much later, well into the companion/npc section.

Please advise.
 

On 10/20/2023 at 5:45 PM, jastey said:

I'd rather they'd be broken out

Added to my to-do list. This is low priority for me personally as I am not planning to use any new companions in my next couple of playthroughs. As always if anyone else feels like helping with this, speak up.

 

On 10/20/2023 at 4:56 PM, morpheus562 said:

No, there are too many mods that add items where I do not want to get into the business of specifically having to call out different mods that add items. Blanket statement as already provided covers for everything.

While I strongly believe that as voluntary creators, modders should be free from obligations and expectations, particularly regarding knowledge of other authors' mods; when specific compatibility information is made available, it is often more helpful to users than blanket statements. This could added as example alongside your blanket statement.

Regardless, I have and will only ever make suggestions and it is up to mod authors and maintainers to decide whether to act on them.

 

On 10/20/2023 at 6:10 PM, Connelly said:

I might be wrong, but what I do with Forgotten Armaments is just move the NWN2, ability score, nerf apr and critical hit immunity components after SCS and/or CDTweaks, because there are a few kit and tweak mods that keep adding weapons among the kit, tweak and tactics mods. Seems like the least painful option;

Yes, this is what I've ended up with too, thanks!

 

On 10/20/2023 at 9:03 PM, DavidW said:

It's a bit complicated. By default, IWDSpells silently skips a spell that's already present. But there is a specific list of spells it's told to overwrite: for instance, it overwrites MS1-MS3, so that they're not mismatched stylistically with MS4-MS7. SR has a different (and much shorter, indeed blank I think) overwrite list, so IWDSpells detects SR when deciding which overwrite list to use. That's the detection code that wasn't working properly.

Seems concrete that iwdification should be after spell_rev for compatibility unless/until spell_rev becomes able to detect iwdification.

Currently the spells section looks like this:
 

[jastey]

2 hours ago, 4udr4n said:

If the NPC mods are listed only due to the tracking, sodrtd can be installed in the quest section after other sod quest/storyline mods.

If not, it will need to be pushed much later, well into the companion/npc section.

Please advise.

I think I already said earlier (but apparently phrased it badly) that RtD should be installed late, after any quest and NPC mods or actually any mods that would add reply options or interjections to SoD, because otherwise its tracking component might miss (new) transactions. That includes Themed Tweaks, btw. Thus, my advice to install it late.

 

[BlackStrapMolasses]

@4udr4n This is a stellar effort on your part, it will really help people like me (BG-familiar, understands the modding concepts but not the specific knowledge, which might explain why my  last attempt at a modded EET went awry) put something playable together and keep BG feeling fresh.

A few observations:

- the Road to Discovery discrepancy between its current position in the order and the "install after" warnings has already been picked up on; Heroes, Thieves and Moneylenders & Ding0's Quest Pack appear to have the same issue.

- a few of the mods I thought of including in the next install (Dace, Auren Aseph, Chatty Imoen, Verr'Sza BG2EE) are on your non-EET list but their readmes suggest they are EET compatible. Can you say more?

- are you adding new mods?  I'd quite like to see Skitia's NPCs on this list. At first glance, they look OK for inclusion in the NPC section but your knowledge may be better.

May you roll natural 20s in all your endeavours!

[4udr4n]

45 minutes ago, jastey said:

I think I already said earlier (but apparently phrased it badly) that RtD should be installed late, after any quest and NPC mods or actually any mods that would add reply options or interjections to SoD, because otherwise its tracking component might miss (new) transactions. That includes Themed Tweaks, btw. Thus, my advice to install it late.

That is... a lot of mods to consider. I will give this some thought.

 

16 minutes ago, BlackStrapMolasses said:

Heroes, Thieves and Moneylenders & Ding0's Quest Pack

Yes, I've changed the text colour of the install before/after for these and several other mods that need review. I'll set up conditional formatting to do this automatically when I figure our how (easy on excel, not working how I imaging on sheets!).

 

16 minutes ago, BlackStrapMolasses said:

- a few of the mods I thought of including in the next install (Dace, Auren Aseph, Chatty Imoen, Verr'Sza BG2EE) are on your non-EET list but their readmes suggest they are EET compatible. Can you say more?

I'm likely still behind on some mods if they are not on the EET compatibility guide and/or if they are new companion mods (because I am personally less interested in that category).
I will add those later and would appreciate any further suggestions (here or as comments on the sheet itself).

 

18 minutes ago, BlackStrapMolasses said:

- are you adding new mods?  I'd quite like to see Skitia's NPCs on this list.

Absolutely, similar to the point above I am likely unaware of a whole host of potentially compatible/interesting mods. I'll take a look at these this evening.

I may create a secondary document to allow submissions of new mods and copy them across.

22 minutes ago, BlackStrapMolasses said:

This is a stellar effort on your part
(...)
May you roll natural 20s in all your endeavours!

Thanks, getting close to being something I may actively share elsewhere. Volunteering to help maintain?

My irl dice rolls are cursed, I prefer card games and pc games to avoid the nat 1s that plague me!

[Connelly]

Skitia's NPCs should work on EET last time I checked... about a year ago. Given hers and Lava's and Artemius' are about the latest batch of NPC mods and they had consistent crossmod efforts, I'd put them all together last among NPC mods. Not sure about the particular order between them, but they have dialog/crossmod folders that anyone can check if the readmes are unhelpful.

Also looking at the non-eet section, Reddbane's mods (the small 3.5e mods for thac0, constitution, etc) seem to work fine for me in EET installs, they're mostly about swapping 2da tables, with the only problem being the no off-hand penalty for rangers component in the weapon styles mod not installing correctly. I'd put them after all the big/medium tweak mods, although Pathfinder Hit Dice clashes a bit with one of CDTweaks's hit dice components.

[Delior]

Note that the mod called Skitia's NPCs is a BG2 mod that installs all of Skitia's current NPCs into BG2.  It is EET compatible, but I've been told that it does not put those NPCs into BG1/SOD.  If you want them there, you have to install each NPC's mod for BG1 (e.g., Emily for BG1, Recorder for BG1, etc.).  I believe that Skitia is working on an all-in-one mod for BG1 similar to her BG2 mod, but it is not available yet.  I also do not know how smooth or not the transition is for her NPCs between BG1/SOD and BG2 as I haven't used those NPCs yet myself.  

[Connelly]

Oh yeah, by "Skitia's NPCs" I meant all her mods, not the BG2 one. I can't say for the transition but I assume that class progress and gear on those characters don't carry over from BG1 to BG2

[moggadeet]

Skitia's NPCs are EET compatible, but they are not continuous NPCs, ie, they are installed separately for BG1/SoD and BG2 and they do not retain their BG1 gear/XP/etc.

Chatty Imoen is EET compatible. It doesn't do much beyond add some more voice lines and add Imoen to the BG1-style compliment/insult table. I haven't played a huge amount with Auren Aseph in EET yet, but she seems to work fine so far.